Help -- warm-up strokes ruining my game

P

papercut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I must admit it's a little intimidating posting on a thread filled with the pool giants of the world. I apologize in advance for wasting your time. But, desperate times demand desperate measures....

I'm left-handed. When I set up a stop shot, peform 3-5 warm-up strokes and stop the cue ball dead after pocketing the object ball, my cue ball stops but is spinning as though left hand English was applied. I attribute this to either hitting a tad off center or my stroke is such that I'm curving at the moment truth from right to left. However, I just can't figure out what I'm doing.

However, when I take no warm-up strokes, I consistently hit the stop shot flawlessly with the cue ball stopping with no spin. In fact, when I just run a rack, my accuracy improves 2-3 times when I play with no warm-up strokes. It's like my focus has increased, and I can place the cue ball in the ghost ball location with great accuracy.

I've been playing for around 10 years with high runs around 25-30. I hate to be an unorthodox player, but it seems warm-up strokes for whatever reason get me misaligned.

Can any of you pool gods comment why warm-up strokes could be detrimental to a good stroke? What visual cues (pun intended) do you think about to deliver flawless execution? For example, do you actually visualize your arm as a pendulum, a piston, etc? How do you account for the fact that the warm-up stroke needs to be different than the final stroke (i.e. no follow-through and need to stop cue before hitting cue ball)?
 
You will get alot of information, with the obvious answer to work on your stroke, and get that into muscle memory.

My recommendation is to look into "Set-pause-finish". I think this is taught by Randy G if I am not mistaken.

CCB Search (has a post from RandyG):
http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccbo...d=allposts&Main=116761&Search=true#Post116912

A quick search into RSB:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&th=d10872729e3f1111&rnum=2

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&th=4b3d9e840e859fa3&rnum=5

AZBilliards:
http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=7947&highlight=pause+finish


Good Luck.
 
Well if your practice strokes were straight, I'm pretty sure your stroke would be straight. It's hard to tell if your shaft is not going straight when you have both eyes open. Close your dominant eye, put your non-dominant eye over the shaft, and take some practice strokes, going back and following all the way thru as far as you can. Watch your shaft and your tip, you will notice the imperfections. Try to fix those imperfections, and your stroke will be fine. Fixing a stroke is alot harder than it seems, but the tasks becomes a little easier when you know what the flaws are.
 
Here are a couple of drills to practice hitting the cue ball dead center...

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/

1. Practice banking object balls only (no cue ball) using diamonds. If you hit the ball with left sometimes or right sometimes, then when it hits the rail, the spin will make it change direction slightly and the ball will not make the pocket. May want to tape some cardboard (or whatever) to the pocket sides to reduce the pocket opening. Then you will *have* to aim perfect and *have* to hit dead center to make balls again and again.

START(
%Am9Z1%Ba7Z0%Eg8Z2%M[4Z1%Wp1D4%Xm9Y4%Ym6D7%Zg9Y4%[j6D6%\a9Y1
%]g0D5%^[6Y2
)END


Hint: After hitting the ball, follow through and wait 4 seconds before getting up from the table. Your cue tip should be pointing at the spot you were aiming at.


2. Practice hitting the cue ball into the object ball so that the cue ball rolls straight forward (after hit) and the object ball rolls straight forward hiting the far center diamond and then rolls straight back to hit the cue ball. This is quite difficult to say the least, but a good test to see if you can hit the cue ball dead center and make the cue ball hit the object ball dead center.

START(
%AN7O5%PI7O5%Wr5O6%XO4O5

)END
 
Check your bridge hand first then your stroke arm and last your stance. If any of the above are not working together... you are in deep doo! My buddie was shooting off, I watched him carefully... he was turning his wrist outward as he shot...he adjusted and he is in good form now. Hope this helps!
Billy_Bob said:
Here are a couple of drills to practice hitting the cue ball dead center...

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/

1. Practice banking object balls only (no cue ball) using diamonds. If you hit the ball with left sometimes or right sometimes, then when it hits the rail, the spin will make it change direction slightly and the ball will not make the pocket. May want to tape some cardboard (or whatever) to the pocket sides to reduce the pocket opening. Then you will *have* to aim perfect and *have* to hit dead center to make balls again and again.

START(
%Am9Z1%Ba7Z0%Eg8Z2%M[4Z1%Wp1D4%Xm9Y4%Ym6D7%Zg9Y4%[j6D6%\a9Y1
%]g0D5%^[6Y2
)END


Hint: After hitting the ball, follow through and wait 4 seconds before getting up from the table. Your cue tip should be pointing at the spot you were aiming at.


2. Practice hitting the cue ball into the object ball so that the cue ball rolls straight forward (after hit) and the object ball rolls straight forward hiting the far center diamond and then rolls straight back to hit the cue ball. This is quite difficult to say the least, but a good test to see if you can hit the cue ball dead center and make the cue ball hit the object ball dead center.

START(
%AN7O5%PI7O5%Wr5O6%XO4O5

)END
Click to expand...
 
OOOPs... I forgot to add that Willey Mosconi claimed that shooting good was 90% bridge hand. I am not skilled enough to tell if that statement is correct or not. Other good players here could commennt on his statement.
cut shot said:
Check your bridge hand first then your stroke arm and last your stance. If any of the above are not working together... you are in deep doo! My buddie was shooting off, I watched him carefully... he was turning his wrist outward as he shot...he adjusted and he is in good form now. Hope this helps!
Click to expand...
 
papercut said:
I must admit it's a little intimidating posting on a thread filled with the pool giants of the world. I apologize in advance for wasting your time. But, desperate times demand desperate measures....

I'm left-handed. When I set up a stop shot, peform 3-5 warm-up strokes and stop the cue ball dead after pocketing the object ball, my cue ball stops but is spinning as though left hand English was applied. I attribute this to either hitting a tad off center or my stroke is such that I'm curving at the moment truth from right to left. However, I just can't figure out what I'm doing.

However, when I take no warm-up strokes, I consistently hit the stop shot flawlessly with the cue ball stopping with no spin. In fact, when I just run a rack, my accuracy improves 2-3 times when I play with no warm-up strokes. It's like my focus has increased, and I can place the cue ball in the ghost ball location with great accuracy.

I've been playing for around 10 years with high runs around 25-30. I hate to be an unorthodox player, but it seems warm-up strokes for whatever reason get me misaligned.

Can any of you pool gods comment why warm-up strokes could be detrimental to a good stroke? What visual cues (pun intended) do you think about to deliver flawless execution? For example, do you actually visualize your arm as a pendulum, a piston, etc? How do you account for the fact that the warm-up stroke needs to be different than the final stroke (i.e. no follow-through and need to stop cue before hitting cue ball)?
Click to expand...

Here's my 2 cents on this Papercut. It's a misconception that your warm up strokes, or practice strokes are actually "shot" rehersals. They are not. They are "backswing" rehersals. If you don't draw the cue back properly it will effect the exicution stroke simply because the end of the backstroke is the start of the exicution stroke. Makes sense right? Get the backswing wrong and the forward swing suffers. Most players would see a big improvement in thier shotmaking if they just slowed down the backstroke. It makes the transition from back to exicution cleaner, smoother, and with more accuracy.

The other point about your being able to hit no-spin stopshots better with no warm up is interesting. With 4 or 5 warm up strokes you may be getting distracted at some point along the way (more time for doubt, indicision, mechanical errors to creep in) or getting too focused on the cueball. This is dangerous as well because it makes you anticipate the cue tip contact and flinch. Remember, the cue ball just gets in the way of a good stroke.

Just some things to think about while you work it out :)

best of luck to you

Stretch
 
All I can think of is that you're becoming too loose after you "warm-up" your stroke. When I do my warm up strokes I try to loosen up my stroke as much as possible but still keep my form. This ensures that I won't tensen up my muscles in mid stroke and make the cue swerve off it's intended path. I find that 2 warm up strokes is ample for my stroke to be "warm". What I'm guessing is that you have a very loose stroke and when you are "warming" your stroke you become too lose and your form falls apart?

I would suggest trying this. Try using less warm up strokes than you have been. Find what works for you. Maybe 1-2 or maybe even 1.

By the way. With the visualization, I don't exactly picture my arm as a pendulum but I am VERY aware of my elbow. I try to keep it completely stationary until the object ball falls. That also goes for the rest of my body.

It's funny that you talk about warm up strokes. When you watch a good player in dead stroke you'll find that alot of the time his warm up strokes become shorter and look more like he's about to punch the cueball more than stroke it. He's getting ready to release that energy.
 
Can't thank all of you enough for these excellent comments and things to try. Sleep soundly knowing you're making a pool wannabe very happy. It's hard finding serious players beyond the bangers to address the subtleties and under-appreciated aspects of pool.
 
cut shot said:
OOOPs... I forgot to add that Willey Mosconi claimed that shooting good was 90% bridge hand. I am not skilled enough to tell if that statement is correct or not. Other good players here could commennt on his statement.
Click to expand...

Like you, Cutshot, I don't know enough to say for sure whether Willie was right, but what I do know is that even solid fundamentals can break down if the proper bridge hand mechanics are not maintained through the stroke. A good friend of mine had some problems with bridge hand mechanics and managed to overcome those problems.

Papercut, have a knowledgeable player watch you and have them give you feedback about your stroke with and without practice storkes. It is possible that you fail to maintain your bridge hand mechanics when you take practice strokes. If you really can't work out what's wrong, take a lesson from a qualified teaching pro.
 
Try the coke bottle drill lay the bottle on it's side and stroke through the neck without touching the edges of the bottle you will notice any sway in your stroke. Another good drill is to place the cue ball on the spot, lag to the center diamond and back to your cue tip (must stay down on shot of course) this will tell you how much off center you are (assuming table is flat naturally).
 
Papercut,

Great thread!! I have the same problem. I have been playing for years and have had the same concerns. I would see other players stroking several times before pulling the trigger and they look so smooth. I wanted my stroke to look like theirs but I noticed that I missed shots that I didn't think I should have. Working on that, I noticed that if I didn't employ practice strokes, my accuracy increased immensely. I began watching pros to see if there were any that didn't use a lot of practice strokes. Buddy Hall will use practice strokes but before he pulls the trigger, he has a pause. I watched Alex Pagulayan and he pauses and then does one backstroke and shoots. I find for me that I shoot much better when I totally focus on the shot and not worry about practice strokes. What happens is my arm will begin to adjust to the stroke automatically as I focus on the shot. So, my advice is to not worry so much about practice strokes. Do what works best for you.
 
Rickw said:
Papercut,

Great thread!! I have the same problem. I have been playing for years and have had the same concerns. I would see other players stroking several times before pulling the trigger and they look so smooth. I wanted my stroke to look like theirs but I noticed that I missed shots that I didn't think I should have. Working on that, I noticed that if I didn't employ practice strokes, my accuracy increased immensely. I began watching pros to see if there were any that didn't use a lot of practice strokes. Buddy Hall will use practice strokes but before he pulls the trigger, he has a pause. I watched Alex Pagulayan and he pauses and then does one backstroke and shoots. I find for me that I shoot much better when I totally focus on the shot and not worry about practice strokes. What happens is my arm will begin to adjust to the stroke automatically as I focus on the shot. So, my advice is to not worry so much about practice strokes. Do what works best for you.
Click to expand...


RickW,

Man, is it great not to feel alone on this. I too watch all the pros and how they address their warm-up strokes vs the execution stroke. I've observed similar things that you have regarding the same players. Fischer has a really nice routine with lengthy pauses. Corey Duele (sp?) seems to pull back much farther on his execution stroke than his warm-up ones that I find intriguing. It has been driving me crazy for months trying to mimic these styles to see if any work for me. I feel as though I do the warm-up strokes purely because "that's what is supposed to be done" rather than because they actually help my alignment, speed control, etc. I'm definitely going to work on these things addressed in this thread, but I'm starting to think that trying to be Mr. Textbook on all things related to pool will drive me away from the game due to the frustration of not having them work for me. However, I also feel as though I'm the bratty student who won't listen to the teachings of the experienced.
 
Papercut,

I'm certainly not a pro or even close but I have been playing for a long time and I have been sponge-like with learning whatever will help me play better. I think that you can use a few practice strokes at the beginning of getting down over the ball to get the feel of the speed and then pause without stroking until you get locked in on the shot and then pull the trigger. The practice strokes in the beginning of your down time over the ball are not to line up the shot but to loosen your arm and guage the speed of the stroke. After you loosen up with 2 or 3 practice strokes, pause, focus and lock in the shot and then pull the trigger. That's kind of what I do. I tried not doing any practice strokes and when I'm just practicing by myself, I make a phenominal amount of balls. However, when I shoot competitively, I find that my arm gets tight and I don't do nearly as well. This is why I loosen up before I focus for the shot. It has helped me a lot. Good luck and don't stop trying new things. If they work, great and if they don't, well at least you can say you tried it.
 
Hey, Papercut !

Have you tried videotaping your shooting ? I had the similar problem and found out that my body wasn't absolutely still from the first warm-up stroke until the actual stroke. To me it sounds your body might be drifting some direction while you're concentrating on your practice strokes. At least for me it's very difficult to keep my body absolutely still and also to notice if my body or my head is moving. If your head is moving, your inner ear is moving as well thus making it impossible to sense your small body moves which might actually be the source of your problem.

If you don't have a videocamera, ask some experienced instructor or other good player to check out your stance if your body and head are absolutely still during the warmup strokes.
 
If you are left handed and you are noticing left spin on the cueball after the shot it is almost certain you are cinching your stroking arm slightly in towards your body on the final stroke on the followthrough. How close is your stroking arm to your body when you stroke the ball, I imagine it is pretty close?

Here is a drill, nevermind the coke bottle drill because it will not really help fix the problem when stroking through a ball in your case I am thinking. Set up a straight in stop shot, however long you are noticing the problem. Now mark where the cueball is with some chalk and where the object ball is, exactly where they contact the table is where the marks should be and the shot should be dead straight. Now take the chalk (white chalk will work better for this then cue chalk btw) and draw a line between those 2 points. Now put the object ball and cueball back on the points, and you have a line now going from the center of the cueball to the center of the object ball. Set up for the shot, stroke it however you wish, practice strokes or no, and when you shoot the shot in with a stop shot follow through with the cue and freeze after the followthrough not letting the cue move. If you are seeing left handed spin I am sure your tip will be followed through to the left of center, the shaft will be off angle to the line as your solid bridge hand has not moved, but your back of your cue shifted to the right a touch and closer to your body.

Now that you have the 2 spots and line, keep shooting the shot as a stop shot, keep following through with the cue, and keep freezing after the stroke and noticing where the cuetip is. It may help to let the tip naturally come down to the table as you follow through the cueball for this drill, depending on the distance of the shot a stop shot may require a touch of bottom anyhow. The thing you want to see is the cuetip coming straight down that line you drew on the followthrough, if it is not dead straight down that line you are not stroking straight through the ball like you should. With the line there you will be able to see just how straight your stroke is, and then adjust to fix it.

Do tell on here how close your cue is to your body, when the stroke ends is your stroking arm touching your side? More info will help, but that drill and test above will make fixing your problem a snap, even online.

START(
%A[5B3%B[5B5%C[5B2%D[5B6%E[4B1%Fd0F5%GT1P8%H[5B2%IZ0X1%J[4B5
%K[3B3%L[6B2%M[2B3%N[3B2%O[7B2%P_9I2%UW5N6%Vi5C2%WC6[5%X_2I6
%YX0O1%Zi2B8%]W1N2%^j1C4%eB5a8
)END

That diagram shows an example shot. Stop shot on the 7 for shape on the 9. The 6-ball is where your bridge hand is and the cue will always go through that point. The green, yellow, and black lines represent your cue after the followthrough. The green line is probably how your cue is ending up, left handed you are bringing the butt of the cue slightly in towards your body as you follow through the cueball and that is why you are getting the spin on the ball. The black line would be the other extreme where the butt of the cue would be going slightly away from your body and would impart right handed siding on the ball. The yellow line is optimal followthrough, dead through the cueball and a folowthrough that is straight down the target line.

That is the best I can show you online, hope it helps. SJM maybe can get the WEI table working as a pic in this thread, I dont have a clue how to do it. If not the wei table is http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html Go there, copy the script above including the start/end, and click on paste on the WEI table page. That will show you my diagram and along with the writing is my theory on your problem.

As long as your bridge hand is solid and does not move this will fix any problem you have, Mjantti's problem would be detected via this method as well as the cue will shift off the line due to any unwanted movement in the back section of your body past your solid bridge.
 
Last edited:
Celtic said:
If you are left handed and you are noticing left spin on the cueball after the shot it is almost certain you are cinching your stroking arm slightly in towards your body on the final stroke on the followthrough. How close is your stroking arm to your body when you stroke the ball, I imagine it is pretty close?

Here is a drill, nevermind the coke bottle drill because it will not really help fix the problem when stroking through a ball in your case I am thinking. Set up a straight in stop shot, however long you are noticing the problem. Now mark where the cueball is with some chalk and where the object ball is, exactly where they contact the table is where the marks should be and the shot should be dead straight. Now take the chalk (white chalk will work better for this then cue chalk btw) and draw a line between those 2 points. Now put the object ball and cueball back on the points, and you have a line now going from the center of the cueball to the center of the object ball. Set up for the shot, stroke it however you wish, practice strokes or no, and when you shoot the shot in with a stop shot follow through with the cue and freeze after the followthrough not letting the cue move. If you are seeing left handed spin I am sure your tip will be followed through to the left of center, the shaft will be off angle to the line as your solid bridge hand has not moved, but your back of your cue shifted to the right a touch and closer to your body.

Now that you have the 2 spots and line, keep shooting the shot as a stop shot, keep following through with the cue, and keep freezing after the stroke and noticing where the cuetip is. It may help to let the tip naturally come down to the table as you follow through the cueball for this drill, depending on the distance of the shot a stop shot may require a touch of bottom anyhow. The thing you want to see is the cuetip coming straight down that line you drew on the followthrough, if it is not dead straight down that line you are not stroking straight through the ball like you should. With the line there you will be able to see just how straight your stroke is, and then adjust to fix it.

Do tell on here how close your cue is to your body, when the stroke ends is your stroking arm touching your side? More info will help, but that drill and test above will make fixing your problem a snap, even online.

START(
%A[5B3%B[5B5%C[5B2%D[5B6%E[4B1%Fd0F5%GT1P8%H[5B2%IZ0X1%J[4B5
%K[3B3%L[6B2%M[2B3%N[3B2%O[7B2%P_9I2%UW5N6%Vi5C2%WC6[5%X_2I6
%YX0O1%Zi2B8%]W1N2%^j1C4%eB5a8
)END

That diagram shows an example shot. Stop shot on the 7 for shape on the 9. The 6-ball is where your bridge hand is and the cue will always go through that point. The green, yellow, and black lines represent your cue after the followthrough. The green line is probably how your cue is ending up, left handed you are bringing the butt of the cue slightly in towards your body as you follow through the cueball and that is why you are getting the spin on the ball. The black line would be the other extreme where the butt of the cue would be going slightly away from your body and would impart right handed siding on the ball. The yellow line is optimal followthrough, dead through the cueball and a folowthrough that is straight down the target line.

That is the best I can show you online, hope it helps. SJM maybe can get the WEI table working as a pic in this thread, I dont have a clue how to do it. If not the wei table is http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html Go there, copy the script above including the start/end, and click on paste on the WEI table page. That will show you my diagram and along with the writing is my theory on your problem.

As long as your bridge hand is solid and does not move this will fix any problem you have, Mjantti's problem would be detected via this method as well as the cue will shift off the line due to any unwanted movement in the back section of your body past your solid bridge.
Click to expand...

Celtic,

I'm at work now, but I look forward to giving this a try. I'm one of the lucky ones with a pool table in my basement, so marking it up (I'll actually probably use stickers/hole reinforcers) to create that line is feasible.

I really, really appreciate your time talking me through this. I've literally spent many weeks and countless hours setting up the stop shot with no warm-up, with warm-up, with different kinds of warm-up, etc. but with no resolution why the left English is transferred with warm-up strokes. I've tried the coke bottle drill (I actually use a wine bottle), and I can stroke cleanly through that with my eyes closed and shaking my head. I think the flaw with the coke bottle drill is that I warm-up back and forth very cleany, but it's the execution stroke where things fall apart and since the tip drops with follow-through, you can't manuever the cue through the coke bottle opening. I've even tried Colin's laser pointer drill (remember that thread?), but since I prefer a closed bridge, it doesn't work that well for me. It's funny that I can set up a shot, close my eyes, turn my head 90 degrees, and make it cleanly with no warm-up strokes. However, with my eyes open and watching intently with warm-up strokes, everything seems to go to hell.

Look forward to trying your suggestions.
 
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