Help with Whitey needed.

[Da Poet]

My game seems to be at a standstill right now over cueball control. Specifically, the problem is understanding the direction and distance the cueball will go after contact with the object ball and then the rail. I certainly could use a lesson, but in the meantime, is there a book or maybe a few drills that folks here might recommend that helps breaks things down a bit? Especially in close softer shots with left and right english?

Thanks!

 

[juanbond]

My game seems to be at a standstill right now over cueball control. Specifically, the problem is understanding the direction and distance the cueball will go after contact with the object ball and then the rail. I certainly could use a lesson, but in the meantime, is there a book or maybe a few drills that folks here might recommend that helps breaks things down a bit? Especially in close softer shots with left and right english?

Thanks!

Da Poet - I struggle with the same things... I have found that what helps me work out speed issues most is to play target pool. Doesn't require buying "Kim Davenport's Target Pool" (although it certainly contains a good set of target shots)... What I do is cut a circle out of paper or thin cloth, about three or four balls in diameter, and lay that down as my target. Then, I shoot the same target shot 5 times....I count two points for the cueball being completely inside the circle, and one point if it's laying across the edge of the circle. Then I calculate my average points per attempt, and start over, trying to beat my best average.

The beauty of target pool is that you can set up all those shots you have trouble with, as well as ones you know you should score pretty high on... It really helps perfect that speed control...draw, follow, side-english off a rail, etc... It's twice as fun to play with a friend or two!

 

[RiverCity]

Here is a very brief intro into position play. (for all purposes here, ENGLISH refers only to sidespin, topspin is FOLLOW, and backspin is DRAW)
1.They angle of the shot dictates the direction of the cue ball takes off the object ball (if you are cutting the object ball to the right, the cue ball will go to the left and vicaversa)
2.Sidespin only directs the cue ball off the rail, not the object ball. Which is to say, sidespin doesn't make the cue ball do anything other than spin UNTIL/UNLESS it touches a rail. Then the cue ball will go in the direction of the sidespin. English does not effect the angle the cue ball comes off the object ball (not discussing throw).
3. Follow and draw control the tangent line. If the cue ball arrives at the object ball with no top or back spin (cue ball is sliding) on a cut shot, the cue ball will follow a line 90 degrees from the line of centers of the shot. This perpendicular line is called the tangent line. If you have follow (topspin) on the ball on the cut shot, it will go forward, away from you, of the 90 degree tangent line. If you have draw (backspin) on the cue ball on the same shot, it will it will come behind the tangent line, back towards you.
4. Distance on a shot, straight in or close to straight in, depends mainly on the speed of the stroke. On cut shots, its still the speed of stroke that determines the speed, but the fullness/thinness of the hit needs to be taken into consideration. The fuller the hit, with a certain stroke speed, the slower the cue ball will move after the hit. The thinner the hit at the same stroke speed as before..... the faster the cue ball will move after the hit. This also applies to the cue ball hitting the rail after a shot. Reverse english (sidespin opposite the angle of the cue ball coming off the object ball/entering the cushion) will slow it down off the rail.

There are only a few principals to learn about position play. The thing is, there are countless combinations of spins and speeds you can put on the cue ball on a shot. The best advice is to set up a simple cut shot, mark the position of the balls (those 3 hole paper reinforces work well) so that you have the same shot each time. Then start experimenting with.... where does straight follow make the cue ball go..... where does follow with a touch of sidespin make it go...... etc etc etc. Position play is limited only to your creativity and skill for speed control. A good stroke and some chalk doesn't hurt either.......
Chuck

 

[Da Poet]

Here is a very brief intro into position play. (for all purposes here, ENGLISH refers only to sidespin, topspin is FOLLOW, and backspin is DRAW)
1.They angle of the shot dictates the direction of the cue ball takes off the object ball (if you are cutting the object ball to the right, the cue ball will go to the left and vicaversa)
2.Sidespin only directs the cue ball off the rail, not the object ball. Which is to say, sidespin doesn't make the cue ball do anything other than spin UNTIL/UNLESS it touches a rail. Then the cue ball will go in the direction of the sidespin. English does not effect the angle the cue ball comes off the object ball (not discussing throw).
3. Follow and draw control the tangent line. If the cue ball arrives at the object ball with no top or back spin (cue ball is sliding) on a cut shot, the cue ball will follow a line 90 degrees from the line of centers of the shot. This perpendicular line is called the tangent line. If you have follow (topspin) on the ball on the cut shot, it will go forward, away from you, of the 90 degree tangent line. If you have draw (backspin) on the cue ball on the same shot, it will it will come behind the tangent line, back towards you.
4. Distance on a shot, straight in or close to straight in, depends mainly on the speed of the stroke. On cut shots, its still the speed of stroke that determines the speed, but the fullness/thinness of the hit needs to be taken into consideration. The fuller the hit, with a certain stroke speed, the slower the cue ball will move after the hit. The thinner the hit at the same stroke speed as before..... the faster the cue ball will move after the hit. This also applies to the cue ball hitting the rail after a shot. Reverse english (sidespin opposite the angle of the cue ball coming off the object ball/entering the cushion) will slow it down off the rail.

There are only a few principals to learn about position play. The thing is, there are countless combinations of spins and speeds you can put on the cue ball on a shot. The best advice is to set up a simple cut shot, mark the position of the balls (those 3 hole paper reinforces work well) so that you have the same shot each time. Then start experimenting with.... where does straight follow make the cue ball go..... where does follow with a touch of sidespin make it go...... etc etc etc. Position play is limited only to your creativity and skill for speed control. A good stroke and some chalk doesn't hurt either.......
Chuck

Thanks! I'm pretty good with the 30-90 degree rules and what direction and speed off the object ball and such. It's the shots that require you to play off the object ball, an then into the rail that seem to defy logic at times. I look at the shot and ask myself, "Do I need to hit it firmer with stun it, or can I accomplish the same result, (slightly different direction) with a softer roll with left or right english, or is it somewhere in between. I get indecisive and frustrated and end up doing none of the above. I'll hit the shot the way I planned it and something entirely different happens and I get sad and cry like a little girl. I feel like I need some education here, or maybe it's just one of those feel / practice things that gets better with time, I'm not sure.

Thanks again!

 

[Russ Chewning]

Thanks! I'm pretty good with the 30-90 degree rules and what direction and speed off the object ball and such. It's the shots that require you to play off the object ball, an then into the rail that seem to defy logic at times. I look at the shot and ask myself, "Do I need to hit it firmer with stun it, or can I accomplish the same result, (slightly different direction) with a softer roll with left or right english, or is it somewhere in between. I get indecisive and frustrated and end up doing none of the above. I'll hit the shot the way I planned it and something entirely different happens and I get sad and cry like a little girl. I feel like I need some education here, or maybe it's just one of those feel / practice things that gets better with time, I'm not sure.

Thanks again!

Keep in mind a stun stroke does not always have to be hit at a firm speed. Pros often "drag" the cue ball on close shots to slow the cue ball down just after contact. That is, they hit it really soft, with a very slow stroke speed, but adjust downwards on the cue ball hit in order to kill the cue ball.

One thing I used to do was practice stroking into a liquor bottle. I would practice very slow strokes as well as normal strokes. What I found is that practicing the very slow controlled strokes allowed me to kill the cue ball on shots where it just didn't look like you could kill it. Then again, my practice was combined with watching videos of Efren do the same thing. I simply mimicked his stroke.

I also found I could control the cue ball well on even the most horrible tables. Ones with a massive lean! I would just pull out that slow, super exaggerated stroke, which made the cue ball travel at the speed of a normal shot at first, then slow down dramatically right before hitting the object ball.

Oh yeah, one more thing. It might have been said before, but I'll say it again. Don't use so much spin. Practice your patterns with center, top, and bottom. Then, when you have that working pretty well, practice patterns with 1/2 to 1 tip of english, no more.

That should be sufficient for 90% of your runouts. Good luck!

Russ

 

[Cameron Smith]

My game seems to be at a standstill right now over cueball control. Specifically, the problem is understanding the direction and distance the cueball will go after contact with the object ball and then the rail. I certainly could use a lesson, but in the meantime, is there a book or maybe a few drills that folks here might recommend that helps breaks things down a bit? Especially in close softer shots with left and right english?

Thanks!

When you are practicing just watch and see how the balls react on contact. Being observant can go a long way.

 

[xidica]

Indeed. I agree that there is some really good advice up here.

1. Keep playing, just hit the balls.
2. For me, I start to play hitting softer than I need sometime on a new table.
3. Never let a missed shot or leave frustrate you. It happens, it's a game.

 

[RiverCity]

Thanks! I'm pretty good with the 30-90 degree rules and what direction and speed off the object ball and such. It's the shots that require you to play off the object ball, an then into the rail that seem to defy logic at times. I look at the shot and ask myself, "Do I need to hit it firmer with stun it, or can I accomplish the same result, (slightly different direction) with a softer roll with left or right english, or is it somewhere in between. I get indecisive and frustrated and end up doing none of the above. I'll hit the shot the way I planned it and something entirely different happens and I get sad and cry like a little girl. I feel like I need some education here, or maybe it's just one of those feel / practice things that gets better with time, I'm not sure.

Thanks again!

For learning how the cueball comes off the rails, it is thinking about....
1. What angle the cue ball is going to hit the nose of the cushion. If its going 90 degrees into the rail (straight) it will come straight back out if it has no side spin. If it goes into the rail at an angle, it will come off the cushion at approximately the same angle, in the opposite direction. Angle in equals angle out..... its not exact and there are alot of factors that can and will change this, but its a good place to start.
2. Sidespin into the rail. If the cue ball hits the rail at a 90 degree angle (straight) with right spin, it will spin off the rail to the right. If it has left spin.... it will spin to the left. If you are hitting the rail at an angle, the sidespin will either widen the angle or "shorten" it up depending on the spin and the direction of the angle. Example. If you are shooting the cue ball into the rail so that it will rebound to the RIGHT, right hand spin will widen the angle maybe from a 30 degree angle it will widen it to 90 degrees, depending on speed and how much sidespin you are using.
3. Speed of the shot, as I said in the earlier primer, speed of stroke is the key. The factors to consider are how thick or thin the hit on the object ball is, how far the cueball has to travel before and after the hit... etc.
4. The biggest thing I see people not thinking about when playing position is the angle the cueball comes off the object ball into a rail. From a given position with a cut shot, you can move the cueball darn near anywhere on the table. You have to take into account how the cueball will hit the rail first. Do you need sidespin to lengthen the angle off the rail to hit another rail, or to wind up where you want the cueball to stop? Then lastly, it is speed control (stroke speed)

All that has been said is the basic physics. It is up to you to build a memory database of the angles and english required, and the muscle memory in your arm to control the speed. As I suggested, mark the table position of 2 balls set up for a simple cut shot with little pieces of tape, or even a small chalk mark. Then shoot it over and over, experimenting with different spins, and try to remember where topspin goes, where backspin goes. What happens with a little right hand english, left english.... then start combining them. Before too long you will have a pretty good concept, and will be able to apply the theory to the shot at hand.
Chuck

 

[3kushn]

When you are practicing just watch and see how the balls react on contact. Being observant can go a long way.

This is it. Very simple.

What I do to get in stroke is to play some 1 rail of course on a billiard table. My rule is every shot has to be one rail - more rails or less is a miss. This teaches me to reach for the second rail. In pool this would be the same as landing on a particular spot. This exercise also helps achieve a smooth follow thu.

 

[Aaron_S]

Here's a drill a guy showed me one time. I've never been much on drills myself, but I think this is probably a good one for cb control.

CueTable Help

You just shoot the same shot each time, and try to make the cb collide with the 2-10 balls in numerical order, removing each ball as you hit it. You can track your progress by counting the number of strokes it takes to hit all 9 balls. It's been a while since I tried this one, but, as I recall, anything in the teens is pretty good, low teens is real good, and a 9 is obviously the lowest score possible. You can vary the difficulty of the drill by changing the speed of your stroke. For example, run the drill shooting each shot very softly, then run it using medium speed, then firm, etc. I guess you could also add balls if you wanted. I've included (tried to anyway) some lines on the table to show how the balls are lined up, but I can provide additional clarification if needed.

Edit: the 9 isn't showing up on my screen, but it should be opposite the 3-ball. Sorry, I always have trouble getting WEI to show up correctly in a post.

 

[VonRhett]

I agree with Cameron.

Just go hit tens of thousands of balls, watch, study and learn. As with most sports, reading about it won't help you determine speed or develop a stroke.

 

[cuetable]

My game seems to be at a standstill right now over cueball control. Specifically, the problem is understanding the direction and distance the cueball will go after contact with the object ball and then the rail. I certainly could use a lesson, but in the meantime, is there a book or maybe a few drills that folks here might recommend that helps breaks things down a bit? Especially in close softer shots with left and right english?

Thanks!

Hi
I'd suggest you to have a look at our drill this month. A simple sheet of computer paper will do wonders for you.

You can start your own drill with just 3 balls randomly placed on table. Place the paper down as a visual position zone when you are running them by the numbers. Practice this for a while and study from trials and errors. If there are some shots you constantly have problems with, record down the layout so you have something concrete to ask the instructor later.

Please visit the link 2 and 3 below, I believe they will help

 

[Jigger]

I'm a fan of Dr. Dave and his on-line instructional videos. I spose most on here have visited the site but for those looking to control the QBall the videos offer great fundnamental understanding. Dave's videos are free, quick and handy to view. Nothing can replace experience at the table but for those players up to the intermediate level they are well worth the time.

Check out: http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/index.html

 

[skins]

the key to better position play has always been speed control. i would say practice shooting the cue ball from long rail to long rail, as in a lag for break, and also short rail to short rail in the same manner and try to get a consistent distance of around 5 inches from the rail (etch in your mind the speed you need to hit the cue to make these shots consistently). after you get this in your head place balls on the table about 3 inches from any rails and hit the balls at different angles with the same "lag" strokes and notice the distance the cue ball and object ball travel. one of the things you'll notice is that on a half ball hit the cue ball travels about the same distance as the object ball at the any non english stroked speed and will lengthen or shorten it's travel distance determining how much or little the cue ball contacts the object ball. you don't have to be trying to pocket balls during this exercise. you're just trying to get the feel of your stroke. try this with harder and softer strokes to get "your feeling" you'll need to get to comfortable with the balls travel. it won't take long for you to get used to the speed off certain shots and you'll start to retain this info for future position play. once you're comfortable with this then you can move on to affecting to cue ball's travel distance using english which will open up another can of worms for you and make you re-think your whole aiming strategy on many shots but thats another topic. good luck.

 

[av84fun]

Da Poet...Entire BOOKS could been written covering only your question. But here are a couple of tips

1. Cue ball travel after collision with OB.

Study up on the Tanget Line...but unless the CB is skidding at the moment of impact, the CB won't stay on the tangent line very long. Here is a Quick and Dirty method to predict CB travel.

A. Point your cue at the CB and imagine that the cue is the long downward pointing "tail" of the letter "Y". The CB would be at the V. Now, let's say you are shooting a cut to the Right...so the right "leg" of the V points to where the OB is going to go...and the CB will travel NEARLY down the path that the left leg of the V is pointing. Just imagine that path in your mind and you will have a VERY good idea about the CB path on medium speed shots shot with a little follow. Look in ANY instruction book that uses lines to show CB and OB travel and you will see what I mean very clearly. OF COURSE...speed and/or bottom will change that path...sometimes radically...but before you can predict the difference, you need to START with the Y and adjust from there.

B. Predicting CB distance.

Set up this drill..

1. Place the OB directly in front of a side pocket about a thumb's width off where the cushion would be.

2. Place the CB two diamonds away...at the same distance from the cushion.

3. Shoot softly enough to pocket the OB but to have the CB stop ONE diamond forward. Burn that speed into your mind.

4. The shoot the same shot except attempt to send the CB TWO diamonds forward.

Do the above up to 4 "diamonds" which would place the CB on the end rail.

With steady practice you should be able to nail the 1-3 distances within the diameter of the CB and the 4 diamond distance within a ball and a half.

Now you have your CB distances calibrated up to 4 1/2 feet of travel which will cover a LOT of shots.

When you get good then shot a 1 then a 3 then a 2 then a 4 etc.

Finally, place the OB a full ball to the left of the original position because the CB will travel further when less than a full hit at any given speed.

You will see that your "1 distance" become about 2 1/2-3 etc. Your results will vary from mine due to cloth speeds.

The FIRST thing I do when playing on a new table is to set up that drill until I have my 1-4 speeds down pat.

Regards,
Jim