Here's what I'm up against

W

Williebetmore

Member, .25% Club
Silver Member
Had my regular Wednesday 14.1 match with a local pro; this week we raced to 500 (I get a monster handicap, but let's forget about that for now). I had a pretty good lead before my opponent got in stroke; but then the lead melted rapidly. I was ahead 492 to 420 when my opponent got bad on a break shot, and we had another safety battle to get control of the rack. I played a GREAT safety, corner hooking my opponent; and I post below what happened.

Though my evil opponent won that rack, they were only able to run to 499 (jawed a ball on that viciously tight Diamond table); I then ran 4, made a break shot, and finished out the game. Final score 500-499 (about 13 hours, including lunch, dinner, and a couple hour break); I've only beaten this particular opponent 5 or 6 times in 3 years (even with the unmentionable handicap; which I'm sure you will have the common decency not to mention in this forum).

TWO PAGES TO THIS DIAGRAM

CueTable Help

 
Last edited:
I feel your pain

WBM,

I've endured the same against our local pro here in the Show-Me state (also with an embarassingly unmentionable handicap). All I can do is shake my head, grin, and remind myself how fortunate I am to watch, play, and learn from someone of this caliber on a regular basis.

I've decided -- right or wrong -- over the last couple matches to err on the side of aggressive play. I figure that I'm unlikely to win most safety battles, and I figure I haven't hurt myself too much even if I hang one while opening up the pack. The pro is going find a way to open them up a high percentage of the time, anyway. And the benefit to me when the shot does go in is enormous.

And I'm certainly not trying to imply that safe isn't the absolutely correct play oftentimes, or that your safe shown wasn't a dandy. Just wondering whether your safe versus aggressive philosophy changes at all when you're up against world-class talent in this game.

Either way, it sure is fun, ain't it?
 
Willie,

Did the pro at least foul twice before shooting this? I hope so. I put something like this in a post I made a while ago to this board. This is a perfect opportunity for the shooter to at least get the equity of having an opponent on 2 before trying this. At the very least, if the pro misses, it makes you pocket another 2 balls before winning.

(Incidentally, if he or she takes the first foul, and you decide to shoot at it, the pro is probably in even a better position. Any non-top-player who tries to make these two shots consecutively, the second one with good position, on a "vicious Diamond" is probably a big underdog. I'd let most pros shoot at it, too.)

If you want to PM me with the spot, I'd be curious if my guess is in the right ballpark. ;)

Hope all is well,
Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Willie,

Did the pro at least foul twice before shooting this? I hope so. I put something like this in a post I made a while ago to this board. This is a perfect opportunity for the shooter to at least get the equity of having an opponent on 2 before trying this. At the very least, if the pro misses, it makes you pocket another 2 balls before winning.

(Incidentally, if he or she takes the first foul, and you decide to shoot at it, the pro is probably in even a better position. Any non-top-player who tries to make these two shots consecutively, the second one with good position, on a "vicious Diamond" is probably a big underdog. I'd let most pros shoot at it, too.)

If you want to PM me with the spot, I'd be curious if my guess is in the right ballpark. ;)

Hope all is well,
Steve
Click to expand...

Steve,
Sorry can't remember exactly (had almost no sleep on Tuesday night at work; then played pool all afternoon/evening...this occurred after midnight... we had several super-intense safety battles the last few racks with LOTS of fouls).

As my game improves; my partner definitely is trying to play a tighter game; but I am still not enough of a shotmaking threat to put real pressure on such a good player (especially since they are really re-dedicating to the game; and practicing a LOT). Because of the tough equipment, long runs are very difficult to generate. Usually the high run is in the 60's or 70's; rare 90's; no 100's yet (though sjm witnessed a 152 on this table years ago).

In a race to 500, I start at 310 (need 190 balls) - we use the current league handicap, whatever it may be at the time; and the pro's were assigned outrageously tough handicaps this season. PLEASE DON'T TELL ANYONE!!!!! I expected to win every game easily as my game has been improving by leaps and bounds; but my partner is improving at the same relative rate, and the games remain close. In the last 30 games, I can recall only 2 blowouts (both I won....it used to be a big handicap). The difference is almost always less than 20 balls in a race to 250; usually less than 10 - the last hour of these games is really intense. My opponent HATES to lose.

P.S. - what was your guess on handicaps? Be honest, I won't be offended ( if it is absurdly high, I'll just use that as motivation to continue practicing:) :) ).
 
Last edited:
sjb said:
WBM,

I've endured the same against our local pro ....

I've decided -- right or wrong -- over the last couple matches to err on the side of aggressive play. I figure that I'm unlikely to win most safety battles, and I figure I haven't hurt myself too much even if I hang one while opening up the pack. The pro is going find a way to open them up a high percentage of the time, anyway. And the benefit to me when the shot does go in is enormous.

Just wondering whether your safe versus aggressive philosophy changes at all when you're up against world-class talent in this game.

Either way, it sure is fun, ain't it?
Click to expand...

sjb,
Yes, I believe that you are ABSOLUTELY correct. As I've mentioned before, I try to play very aggressively. Even a shot with a 20% chance of success is worth trying; you must maximize your ball count every single inning at the table.

With 3 balls loose the pro's are going to start a run almost every rack. If only 2 balls are loose they will still get the rack open most of the time. With one ball loose, we have a chance. When we shatter the rack while missing a shot, the penalty is usually no more severe than if we lose a safety battle with only 2 balls separated from the rack....the pro still gets going and gets the rack open himself.

I used to win maybe 1 out of 8 safety battles; as my game improves, I am probably near 25 or 30% against the pro (got some great help from sjm in this regard, and my partner is really into the old school safety game); so I do, out of necessity, start a lot of safety battles when I get out of position.
 
Williebetmore said:
Steve,
had almost no sleep on Tuesday night at work.
Click to expand...

Willie, you are a doctor - I should hope it is not your norm to sleep at work! ;)

Williebetmore said:
In a race to 500, I start at 310 (need 190 balls)
P.S. - what was your guess on handicaps?
Click to expand...

My guess was pretty good - it was you getting 300 balls as a spot. So I had you going to 200 to the pro's 500.

To those of you out there who might be a bit inexperienced playing top 14.1 players, this spot is not as big as it sounds. A pro knowing they're playing a weaker player (capable of the occasional open-miss) who has to pocket two hundred balls... it can add oil to the pro's arm, as it were. It wouldn't be uncommon for the pro to have 3 inning stretches here and there where they make 150-200 balls. The weaker player, even a solid one like Willie, in the face of such firepower, might make 60 balls during these innings. All of a sudden the pro needs 300, the weaker player needs 140, and the pro is in dead gear with all the momentum.

Anyway, I'm very jealous of your games... sounds like you appreciate them, though, so that's great. They will do you a world of good, and I expect to see you running hundreds soon sir!

- Steve
 
just thought i'd throw my two cents in here......

though i'm so far detatched from pool, i like to live vicariously through the members in this forum and say hi to steve once in a while.

Steve-

You make a good point about the handicap. Most anybody short of Steve Lipsky could walk into Jose Garcia's room and get spotted 50 on a hundred. I always looked at it like this......if you can't run 50 more times than Jose can run 100, then you are in a bad game.

Obviously, unless your local pro makes a habit of running 300's, this formula doesn't apply to your game. Nevertheless, i think it gives you a nice example of how to handicap your average length sessions and how to be cautious of what you might think is the 'nuts'

Willie-Don't mean to hijack your thread, but something just entered my mind and I wanted to ask Steve about it.

Do you recall a 14.1 proposition game where a player like you would play a player like me and handicap would be that you could only use the side pockets? Seems to me someone offered me that game years ago, and while I wasn't dumb enough to take it, after all these years I still haven't figured out why it was a bad bet. Maybe I should check with SJM too.

It sounds like the stone cold nuts unless you have seen Allen Hopkins take 30-1 on breaking 15 balls and running all 15 into one pocket and get the cheese. It's then that you realize when someone offers you the nuts it usually isn't.
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Willie, you are a doctor - I should hope it is not your norm to sleep at work! ;)


....... this spot is not as big as it sounds.

Anyway, I'm very jealous of your games... sounds like you appreciate them, though, so that's great. They will do you a world of good, and I expect to see you running hundreds soon sir!

- Steve
Click to expand...

Steve,
Every Tuesday, I spend the day and night in the hospital. At night I am able to sleep, though must answer all calls, all emergencies, all admissions, all problems on inpatients. I often sleep 6 or 8 hours, sometimes no sleep; it varies. Since my regular game with our mutual friend is on Wednesdays, the quality of my play tends to vary depending on amount of sleep. On every 5th weekend I am in the hospital from Friday morning until Monday evening continuously - that's not only a drag, but seriously interferes with my pool game (no table in the hospital.............yet).

I NEVER use the lack of sleep as an excuse (I have plenty of others); I would much rather be playing pool than sleeping - I can sleep when I die. I more than appreciate the chance to play with such a good player; I consider it a blessing. Any true pool fanatic would consider it a dream come true. I feel almost obligated to continue improving to justify the time they've spent helping me along.

As far as the spot goes; you are correct; it can disappear in a HURRY. Last game we had a stretch where I was outscored 189 to negative 2 in 3 innings (I had only ONE attempted shot in that stretch, and it was a flyer). Yesterday, my partner outscored the second best player in the league 200 to 10 after falling way behind early; easily winning a match that looked hopeless after the first hundred balls.
 
hi willy! sounds like you have a good game there! i wish i had some one around here that liked to play a marathon 500 pointer! i do get to play a couple kids 150 to 30 for $5 . they dont really want to learn the game though, they just like to watch me run them and even though i try to explain certain patterns they still just dont comprehend it. i guess they think that 9ball is the only game in town! the thing is i love to teach and help new players. but if they dont want to learn or listen what can you do? i know your love for the game and am happy you have a friend that you can have a good game with and learn from!
i also liked your thought....i can sleep when im dead! i think the same thing! i guess that is why i play 6 hrs a day atleast!
hope to run into you again my friend! keep getting better.
 
poolshark52 said:
hi willy! sounds like you have a good game there! i wish i had some one around here that liked to play a marathon 500 pointer! i do get to play a couple kids 150 to 30 for $5 . they dont really want to learn the game though, they just like to watch me run them and even though i try to explain certain patterns they still just dont comprehend it. i guess they think that 9ball is the only game in town! the thing is i love to teach and help new players. but if they dont want to learn or listen what can you do? i know your love for the game and am happy you have a friend that you can have a good game with and learn from!
i also liked your thought....i can sleep when im dead! i think the same thing! i guess that is why i play 6 hrs a day atleast!
hope to run into you again my friend! keep getting better.
Click to expand...

PS52,
Very nice to hear from you. I do think that watching good players has definitely helped my play. As I watch, I try to predict what my opponent will do. Though there are always surprises, I am MUCH better at predicting now than I was a couple of years ago.

I wonder if there is any other way to learn high level straight pool other than observing players at the highest level (like yourself). While you can find the principles of good straight pool in several books; it is a situational game. Knowing when to follow the principles, when to violate them, and how to prioritize them is VERY situational.....it's the art and elegance of the game. I take every opportunity to observe and compete with the better players; hopefully I'll get down to Florida in the next few months (we're thinking of heading to St. Pete sometime soon; if you are anywhere near there we can definitely have a game).
 
i live in st. pete! ill give you the same game your friend does and if you have time

i know all the best places to eat also. it would be my pleasure!
i kind of figured the game out buy myself in one day. it was like a light turned on and i saw things in a way that finally made sense . in other words i was looking ahead 3-4 balls instead of just taking my chances on the next shot. please dont get me wrong, that was just a starting point but i did go from running 5-6 to 1-2-3 racks in just a week or two. i was a good shotmaker to start with and that was a big help!
i was 15 then and never stoped learning till this day. i was blessed with many champions in this area so that is where , like you, i got to observe the finer points of the game. and these guys, crane, cranfield, larry hubberd, danny d,and many other a plus players all have different ways of playing pattern.that is when you start to develope your own style. and it will come to you in a flash willy. one day you will break the balls and say to yourself....i have seen this before and i know just what i am going to do! then on to the next rack! but it all takes time and you , like me, will study the best players and pick up something here and there and put it in your game. that is just the way it works, the way you are sucking up all the knowlege you can from playing with the good players.
ill never forget the first time i beat one of my idles! charlie derisio from rochester. i watched him run 62 in an exibition and wow! i was hooked at 15. well i started beating him regularly at 17! then i beat crane at 22 , but work and family kept me from doing it for a liveing. but i always wonder how far i could have gone had i played with the greats everyday? im glad now i chose the path in life i did.
well i got to rambleing there ! but i turned 60 last week so ill blame it on dementia! you just keep doing what your doing and next year you will be 50% better than you are now! and the same the year after. you are a smart dr. with a good memory and that is one of the best assets a poolplayer can have!
just got a call from cm lee to play some 1 pocket! that makes my day! see ya willy
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top