Instructors--When you work with a student that has a high stance, with their head like a foot or more(!) over their cue, and due to body size/shape simply getting lower is not an option, do you alter any of your teaching of fundamentals to accommodate--what are your considerations?
High(er) Stances
- Thread starter heater451
- Start date
I point out that they will be able to see the shot line better if they are lower, but comfort is a concern. Usually it is older players who have the issue due to being less flexible.
Well, the shot line doesn't change so the stance around the shot line can remain pretty much the same as with a player who stands lower. The biggest difference is in the arm swing. Once you start to stand a foot or more above the table, there will be some form of an elbow drop in the stroke, with the pendulum type stroke no longer being practical, since the arc would then be too sharp from that height.
I would say that a foot high would be right along the border of the two different types of arm swings. If the player can stand a little lower, then they may be able to keep the pendulum type stroke. If not, then the instructor should not consider an elbow drop to be a negative thing but rather work with the player to incorporate it into their swing. The grip will also be affected as the cue rolls through their hand, so some slight adjustments may have to be made there as well.
Fran and Bob, thank you for the replies.
It seems that as long as the standing-aiming part of the PSR is solid, and the player can get on the shot line, then the downward sighting is not an issue--or at least not one that is any different from another, in requiring practice/repetition to optimize.
I think my hang-up is because I believe that sighting from so high above the cue makes it too hard to get into alignment. Sort of the difference in shooting a rifle from the hip, as opposed to looking down the barrel. Then again, bowling requires aiming with the ball close to the eyeline, and then the body alignment and mechanics are used for delivery...if that's a fair comparison.
It seems that as long as the standing-aiming part of the PSR is solid, and the player can get on the shot line, then the downward sighting is not an issue--or at least not one that is any different from another, in requiring practice/repetition to optimize.
I think my hang-up is because I believe that sighting from so high above the cue makes it too hard to get into alignment. Sort of the difference in shooting a rifle from the hip, as opposed to looking down the barrel. Then again, bowling requires aiming with the ball close to the eyeline, and then the body alignment and mechanics are used for delivery...if that's a fair comparison.
Everyone gets into alignment from a standing position, so being higher at address makes no difference in terms of finding the line of the shot. Remember, most of the aiming work is actually done while standing erect some distance from the table. Just make sure you plant your foot on the shot line and the rest will follow. You can try starting from farther back and taking an approach on to the shot line --- a couple of steps, like a bowling approach, only just a couple of steps in.
There are players who excel at shooting while keeping their head two feet above the cue. Some of my considerations:
1) Comfort and potential injuries to the neck and back.
2) Vertical head movement often coincides with lateral head movement, which can compromise one's vision center.
In rifle shooting without a scope, the sights may be clear while the target appears blurred. In pool, there are times when a player can see a target patch on the object ball or the ghost ball, but other times, it can be difficult to see the path of the ball when positioned too low.
Thank you, BA, but my asking for "considerations" was more like "compensations", as my personal playing style/technique is not a traditional one. I only sometimes stand far back from a shot to 'see' it, as I more see/imagine the shot line, get my cue on it, and the get down to shoot--often, I put the cue on the line and then settle my body around it. My point is, when I see someone standing more upright, I think it introduces a..."parallax" is not the word, but I *feel* that the shot sighting is compromised by the greater viewing angle (between the cue line and the downward sighting line). I now understand that achieving the right alignment somewhat negates the height/angle issue.
My motivation for this thread came about from when I have wanted to help a lesser experience player, one that has a high stance, I found that I didn't know how to address that--because I don't employ the standing-aim method, or at least not giving it enough time to realize that the elevation doesn't matter, if that step is employed to ensure that the elevation doesn't matter!
I apologize for any lack of clarity in this--really, any of my posts. I often have problems with overcommunicating, because I want to include nuances, but typing out every thought-counterthought gets messy....
My motivation for this thread came about from when I have wanted to help a lesser experience player, one that has a high stance, I found that I didn't know how to address that--because I don't employ the standing-aim method, or at least not giving it enough time to realize that the elevation doesn't matter, if that step is employed to ensure that the elevation doesn't matter!
I apologize for any lack of clarity in this--really, any of my posts. I often have problems with overcommunicating, because I want to include nuances, but typing out every thought-counterthought gets messy....
WobblyStroke
Well-known member
To ur high stance friend it doesn't matter because he's used to that vantage point. But switching from low to high stance is hard work even with the standing aim method. I tried it for my back but ultimately had to go back to low stance because shots, especially long ones just didnt look right. I could line things up standing just fine but often felt like I might as well close my eyes when down because shots didnt look like i was used to seeing them.
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I am not an instructor. I do have some thoughts on how you can help your friend out though. Look up CJ Wiley's older stuff on his youtube channel. He talks about stance and "aiming from the center of your body" in those videos. He even uses a sword to demonstrate what he means. If you want to go down the rabbit hole of what our bodies are actually capable of here's an experiment:
Imagine some point on your body that is centralized, this is an anchor point. I use my belly button. Someone could use their chest, groin, big toe or whatever but I find the belly button to be one you can easily incorporate and it's centralized. While up and aiming, vividly feel/imagine where this anchor point is in relation to the shot line and the shot/aim you are taking. Using your body awareness, keep this anchor point in mind as you get down on the shot. Pretend it's a glass of water and you don't want to spill a drop. This breeds consistency and consistency is king in this game. I like the belly button because it's related to where your core muscles are and you can keep a good posture with it.
There can be several anchor points in pool. Your center body, your bridge hand, your shooting hand, where you're looking as you get down, footwork and probably many more.
Tangentially related, when banking I like to find the most accepting part of the pocket for a given bank and touch the slate at that point. I "load" this info into my bodily/spacial awareness and then address the bank as usual. It looks silly, but just this simple act improves my percentages.
There's all sorts of ways to align with shots and many anchor points/trigger points in pool. You have to have curiosity but there's a lot to be discovered in this game. Pay attention to things.
If you want to go further down this rabbit hole, check out several videos on traditional Japanese archery. There's a lot to learn there. In every sport, players have a "calibration ritual" and they can be quite personal. Most, if not all sports have this. Pool is no different. The difference is, in say little league baseball, you're more likely to be taught how to do this, but many pool players never even think about this. Many call it PSR, but often PSR instructions only include the mechanical stuff and you should also be including "feel" or calibration. Watch a cat wiggle it's butt before pouncing. It's calibrating, and we should be on every shot. Make sure the world is level and true before shooting. This applies to upright as well as low stances. Build a personalized calibration "ritual" into your game. Practice it until it becomes a rote habit and you can go far. The key is be consistent and do it on every shot. This game rewards the dedicated and punishes us when we get lazy.
I understand. Visual perceptions of the equator/contact point on the OB change between standing upright and assuming a full stance. However, all pros assess from above before assuming the final stance position so there are ways to solve the issue.
That's really interesting. Not meaning to go off track but my friend and great 14.1 and 9 ball player, Gene Nagy, studied Buddhist monk archers and their technique and applied it to pool, creating his 'drop and shoot' method, where you don't take any time at all over the ball. You just drop and shoot. He was remarkably accurate that way. I didn't have the confidence to be able to do it consistently. But then Gene really studied archery for a few years before creating the drop and shoot method. In fact, his neighbors complained about how he was shooting arrows in his driveway next to their house. Apparently, it's considered firing a weapon, and you can't do it in NYC, so he had to stop. Ha!
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I can definitely see a similarity to archery. That would be an amazing experience to go study with the masters like he did. There's a book called Zen and the Art of Archery that is a good read, it's about a similar journey where the author studied under monks. I never really got super into archery other than a summer of practicing and bowfishing from a creek bridge with a recurve bow, but I enjoyed it.
Something I did for a while was to bring the cue down on the shot line extended slightly past the CB and as I went down as I placed my bridge hand I drew the cue back at the same time. I didn't really pursue this but the bridge hand going forward onto the table and the cue going back did feel like drawing a bow. It was a really smooth motion and felt really good but I found it difficult to do on certain shots so I kind of let it fall by the wayside.
There's a reason why most pros play style kind of look the same now, but I like watching some of the past greats, using what would be considered unorthodox today, but playing at championship level. There is definitely a default "right way" to do the mechanics of pool but some of the unorthodox stuff is beautiful to watch.
I think you were in good company playing the way you described. Wasn't that Allison Fisher's way of approaching her shots?
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I'll have to watch some of her matches. It's been a while since I've watched any pro pool and I have the memory of a wet turnip.
