High Speed Spindle Discussion

I'm still confused on that 80K spindle. I was looking on the NSK site tonight and couldn't even find it. I wanted to look at the manual to see if needs oil. The site I found it on earlier had it listed with the air unit that is a combo air / oil unit. The ad on ebay it's listed with the air only unit.

Somebody help me out so the voices in my head will stop.
 
Bill the Cat said:
I'm suprised no one has mentioned the Wolfgang spindle. Maybe at 20K rpm it's not really a "high speed" spindle, but it's been working great for me. The maker of this spindle does offer an optional pulley that will up the rpm to 30K, but admits that this will reduce the life of the spindle bearings.

I'd definitely rather have the NSK spindle, but, as a hobbiest, I just can't justify the expense. At 1/20th the price, the Wolfgang spindle is a great alternative for the financially impared (like me):thumbup:

http://www.wolfgangengineering.com/Products.php
Click to expand...

And they are on sale on eBay right now:

http://shop.ebay.com/wolfgang314/m.html
 
Tony Zinzola said:
I'm still confused on that 80K spindle. I was looking on the NSK site tonight and couldn't even find it. I wanted to look at the manual to see if needs oil. The site I found it on earlier had it listed with the air unit that is a combo air / oil unit. The ad on ebay it's listed with the air only unit.

Somebody help me out so the voices in my head will stop.
Click to expand...

Tony, all the NSK spindles need a small amount of oil in the air to lubricate
spindle parts.
Most of the NSK spindles also have an exhaust tube that carries the waste oil and the air away.
The spindle life is shortened without the oil mist.
I repair air tools through my work at times. Some customers use no oil in air drills and screwdrivers.After 2 years they are completely shot.The ones that use oil misters, just need replacement of the o rings.The vanes and motor assembly are well inside the usable limits and don't need replacing.
 
Kress 1050 spindle TIR measured

Kress 1050 spindle TIR measured.

I finally got around to measuring the runout on my Kress. After some discussions via PM, I came to understand that the later, Red housing Kress spindles were averaging about .0015 TIR when measured at the tapered collet seat.

Using 2 measuring devices, a Browne and Sharp .0005 test indicator and a Starrett .0001 indicator, I determined that the TIR on my particular spindle is .0006" to .0007" at the collet seat, and about .001" on a chucked up endmill (measured at about .25" from the nut).

So, while not necessarily the average for the late model Kress spindles, I have to say I'm happy at least that it appears better than the norm. It did get me to thinking though (that's pretty dangerous when it occurs at 3am), has anyone ever considered getting the collet seat reground? Is it possible? Has anyone done it? I don't know what all would be involved, but it seems possible in my mind, I'm sure real-world reality is a little different however.

Frank
 
Frank, sometimes it is not just the collet seat. It could also be the bearings,the ridgidity of the spindle bearngs etc,it could be the concentricity of the collet,the list goes on.
.0002 inches on any 3 things could be .0006
The smaller the cutter the more accurate you really need to have them running to get the best performance out of them.
A friend makes his own single flute cutters.That way, run out does not matter very much.
He compensates the size difference in the controller with cutter comp.
 
Jr's Farm said:
Kress 1050 spindle TIR measured.

I finally got around to measuring the runout on my Kress. After some discussions via PM, I came to understand that the later, Red housing Kress spindles were averaging about .0015 TIR when measured at the tapered collet seat.

Using 2 measuring devices, a Browne and Sharp .0005 test indicator and a Starrett .0001 indicator, I determined that the TIR on my particular spindle is .0006" to .0007" at the collet seat, and about .001" on a chucked up endmill (measured at about .25" from the nut).

So, while not necessarily the average for the late model Kress spindles, I have to say I'm happy at least that it appears better than the norm. It did get me to thinking though (that's pretty dangerous when it occurs at 3am), has anyone ever considered getting the collet seat reground? Is it possible? Has anyone done it? I don't know what all would be involved, but it seems possible in my mind, I'm sure real-world reality is a little different however.

Frank
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Frank,

While that .001" does sound pretty good, keep in mind that at the .600" tip length that all the precise bits collars are set to, the actual run-out at the tip is closer to .0017", 75% more. Of course, this is if the error is in the collet or collet seat. If it's the bearings, it would not be as much so this is a worst case scenario.

Don't get me wrong, you can do great inlay work with that run-out, but it's just not the same as .0002".

Just thought you should know.
 
RBC said:
Frank,

While that .001" does sound pretty good, keep in mind that at the .600" tip length that all the precise bits collars are set to, the actual run-out at the tip is closer to .0017", 75% more. Of course, this is if the error is in the collet or collet seat. If it's the bearings, it would not be as much so this is a worst case scenario.

Don't get me wrong, you can do great inlay work with that run-out, but it's just not the same as .0002".

Just thought you should know.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct to point out that the r/o will most likely be greater at the business end of the endmill. That's why I was stating where those dimensions were being taken so that there wouldn't be any guessing.

I suppose the next thing would be to either cut a pocket or a part and accurately measure that in comparison to the CAD part, but honestly, I have diffuculty measuring tine parts to the tenth. If the part fits, the glue line is difficult or impossible to see, and bit breakage is minimal, then I suppose accurately measuring parts/pockets and r/o isn't all that necessary?

So far, all my inlays have been very snug in my pockets, so I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding why, if I'm getting .0017 r/o on my parts, and then adding another .0017 to my pockets, that would add up to .0034" of total gap. Maybe I don't see very well, but I'm fairly certain I'm not getting that type of gap on my inlays. So maybe it's not the worst case scenario you mention, but I'm sure it could be better. .0002" would be nice! I could say we're splitting hairs here, since we kinda' are! :smile:

FYI, I'm not using any kind of cutter comp yet.

Thanks for all the great info and contributions to this thread. Please keep it coming! I am looking forward to a better spindle.

Regards,
Frank
 
If I cut a part with a .0156" end mill and cut a pocket the exact same size as the part, with the same endmill, I cannot hammer the part into the pocket. On my old machine, they would almost be a perfect fit.

Depending on the material and wood, I've had to tell my cad program that my bit was up to .003" smaller.

The cue I just did with the Abalone and Ivory into Narra, I had to compensate about .001" on the Ivory Parts and .003" on the Abalone. It took me about 3 hours just to get the Ivory Diamond to fit inside of the Abalone Diamond the way I wanted. To get the Abalone Diamond to fit inside of the other 4 diamonds took a lot less time because I already done the work once. I still had to test it though.

11-03-10-005.jpg
 
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Tony,

That kind of confirms my suspicion, the one that says the clearance I need for my parts to fit is equal to the clearance I'm getting from my runout (or thereabouts). Some parts I have to hammer in, some will press in with a little effort. I also suspect that I may be getting varying degress of bit r/o simply by inserting and removing bits, and quite possibly tightening torque on the collet.
 
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Jr's Farm said:
Tony,

That kind of confirms my suspicion, the one that says the clearance I need for my parts to fit is equal to the clearance I'm getting from my runout (or thereabouts). Some parts I have to hammer in, some will press in with a little effort. I also suspect that I may be getting varying degress of bit r/o simply by inserting and removing bits, and quite possibly tightening torque on the collet.
Click to expand...

Run out is not as critical for fitting parts into pockets as usually more clearance is needed for a good fit anyway. The problem is most paramount when the use of smaller end mills are used. Run out is the total sum of many factors. Bearing run out, collet run out, spindle run out, machine rigidity and of coarse, the run out of the bit itself. Any correction for the better in any area will make for a truer running bit and cut in the end. If happy with only the use of larger bits then less accurate components will suffice but for intricate inlays with the use of .005, .010 or even .015 bits are desired then the spot light is on bringing the basic components as close to 0 run out as possible or an awful lot of money will be spent on cutting tools.

Dick
 
And therein lies the basis to the meaning "Accuracy cost's money. How accurate do you want to be?"

At some point you reach the zone of diminishing returns, for some, that point is sooner than later, all depending on the size of your pocket book!

My intent is always to be the best I can be, which means I always want the best tools. Sometimes it's hard when you have champagne taste on a beer budget. :wink:

Frank
 
Jr's Farm said:
And therein lies the basis to the meaning "Accuracy cost's money. How accurate do you want to be?"

At some point you reach the zone of diminishing returns, for some, that point is sooner than later, all depending on the size of your pocket book!

Frank
Click to expand...

I found a very reasonable compromise in my Bosch 1617 router with PreciseBit collets. For a total outlay of around $300, I was pleasantly surprised to get these results. This is not staged, with repeated attempts to get a good result. This is a first try and is typical. The router runs without vibration, even wide open. My inlays are cleaner, sharp corners have less fracturing. My shafts are coming out even smoother with no chatter at all. Of course, I'm limited to 25,000 rpm but I haven't found that to be a problem. FWIW, I rarely use anything smaller than 1/64" bits.
 
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dzcues said:
I found a very reasonable compromise in my router with PreciseBit collets. For a total outlay of around $300, I was pleasantly surprised to get these results. This is not staged, with repeated attempts to get a good result. This is a first try and is typical. The router runs without vibration, even wide open. My inlays are cleaner, sharp corners have less fracturing. My shafts are coming out even smoother with no chatter at all. Of course, I'm limited to 25,000 rpm but I haven't found that to be a problem. FWIW, I rarely use anything smaller than 1/64" bits.
Click to expand...



If you don't mind me asking, What kind of spindle are You using?

BTW Nice Chevelle In your other video, That big block sounds like a ground shaker, and Brings back some memories. Back in the early 80's a few of My buddies and I use to help each other out by trading out work on each others cars, and I helped one of them restore one just like Yours with a 396, I think it was even the same year & color. Seems like the body on his was pretty solid except for I can remember fixing some rust spots around the back window. Another friend had a Chevy 2 SS close to the same year, We put in a 454, with a Muncie 4spd, tubbed out rear wells, 411 Pos rear with Grand Nationals on the back of It. That car could really lay It down. My Puny 69 Nova with the 350 4 bolt, double hump heads, and 2 speed powerglide was like a Yugo compared to those 2 cars.

My apologies for getting off topic. I just love those old Chevys, and couldn't help Myself.:smile:
Greg
 
Can't upload image of Bob's YouTube intro

It's a Bosch 1617 EVS Router with Precise Bit PG Collet set
 
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GEBrown said:
Can't upload image of Bob's YouTube intro

It's a Bosch 1617 EVS Router with Precise Bit PG Collet set
Click to expand...



Thank You, I thought I had read that It was a Bosch, but the collet chuck in the video looks different to Me.
 
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Cue Crazy said:
Thank You, I thought I had read that It was a Bosch, but the collet chuck looks in the video looks different to Me.
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Greg,

The collet chuck is a PreciseBits Collet set. I think I mentioned that in my previous post, in the title of the video and in the description below the video.

What did YOU do with your extra hour last night :-)
 
dzcues said:
Greg,

The collet chuck is a PreciseBits Collet set. I think I mentioned that in my previous post, in the title of the video and in the description below the video.

What did YOU do with your extra hour last night :-)
Click to expand...


Bob,
I guess I should have taken a reading class with that extra hour, but I tried to catch up on some sleep instead:grin: I remember reading the Precise Bits part, but I must have assumed that was the end mill, and read right over the collet part.

Thanks for the clarification, and Nice setup You have there.
 
Cue Crazy said:
Bob,
I guess I should have taken a reading class with that extra hour, but I tried to catch up on some sleep instead:grin:
Click to expand...

Yeah, I got some extra sleep myself...and I was feeling feisty enough to bust 'em for you a little. No harm intended.
 
dzcues said:
Yeah, I got some extra sleep myself...and I was feeling feisty enough to bust 'em for you a little. No harm intended.
Click to expand...



No harm done My good man, at least they are still swinging from the original position last time I checked.:grin: I Believe We all have our moments, and I certainly have My fair share. My ol lady calls It a blond moment. I call It CCS
 
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