Hitting cut shots with draw - why do I keep missing?

[Fats_Brown_Lives]

[10/24 Edit -I have enough to move forward from this post and appreciate the helpful thoughts and tips. I'll pay it forward best I can!]

Hi all - first post. Anyone have guidance on how to hit a standard cut shot with normal back draw? I am comfortable hitting cuts and draw shots, but when I combine it - I miss at a frustrating percentage. I've researched it and scoured youtube, but no one seems to have trouble making the object ball or offer any methods different than if I were to hit center or top English.


Any thoughts/help?

 

[maha]

try lining you cue on the rail over a diamond and stroke a million times or until no matter whether soft or hard your tip goes back and forth over the diamond. until you can do that even with your eyes closed you will never have a straight stroke.

no straight stroke no consistency, no way to improve.

same as your golf swing, if you cant deliver the club face directly in line with the ball the ball never goes where you want it to.

 

[Fats_Brown_Lives]

try lining you cue on the rail over a diamond and stroke a million times or until no matter whether soft or hard your tip goes back and forth over the diamond. until you can do that even with your eyes closed you will never have a straight stroke.

no straight stroke no consistency, no way to improve.

same as your golf swing, if you cant deliver the club face directly in line with the ball the ball never goes where you want it to.

Thanks. I’ll try that drill. I believe I have pretty good control with slower shots. Part of my warm up, drills, i line up between the far lengths diamonds and lag to aim for the near side diamond. 9/10 hit my target.

Not suggesting I don't have room for improvement- it just made me think that wasnt the issue for draw cuts (or at least how to fix it)

 

[VarmintKong]

Hey Fats,
I know that your focused dedication will undoubtedly lead to improvement by leaps and bounds.

I don’t mean to compound things and make you second guess multiple things, as I believe in consciously changing one thing at a time, but…

I have also struggled with a stroke that pulled away from my body on take-off. The culprit was my hip wasn’t allowing enough room for my arm to swing freely and it was my way to compensate. I used to notice a little twist of left spin on most shots; enough that identical shots cut left and right felt different.

 

[maha]

nothing matters if you have a straight stroke. some ways make it easier but look at all the great players that have different contortions in their strokes.
just do what works for you to get a straight stroke.

 

[Fats_Brown_Lives]

Love this, thank you

 

[straightline]

TLDR: I've found out that when adding power I swing my elbow out causing and angled contact and creating side spin. This sidespin then derails my thin cuts when I add draw.

Hey everyone - Work travel and a toddler has delayed me up from getting a couple dedicated hours to work on this. But I was able to this week and I think we're in much better shape. With this post I got a ton of great feedback, advice, and drills which I absorbed and will share with my team. Thank you very much to everyone that was generous with their time! I've logged the helpful comments for reference.

I believe the larger issue was not isolated to a draw shot itself but adding power to my stroke needed for said draw shots. While I am very comfortable with (and prefer) slow rolling shots for thin cuts, safeties, runs achieved by low action on the CB etc., the increased power I would apply to draw shots has me "outside in". I believe essentially the more power I apply the more I swing out my elbow on my down stroke.

To relate it to golf, swinging over the top/outside in strikes the golf ball at an angle and creating side spin (aka a slice) In pool, this subtle spin did not affect straight shots with draw enough for me to miss, but causes me to hit cut shots thick.

Thinner the cut and longer the shot - the more penalizing the effect.

More to practice on this, but loosening my grip and focusing on keeping my elbow movement linear seems to greatly helped. I look forward to working on the drills, particularly the "mighty X."

The Ray Martin book has the best draw advice I can't do yet. Really. My power draw sucks probably due to something similar with your stroke. He says shoot like the cue ball isn't there. I get my stroke to behave by aiming ahead of the rock instead of on it. Just make sure the the stroke line is aimed through the desired spot on the rock. When done properly you get that burnout draw action.

 

[Mensabum]

TLDR: I've found out that when adding power I swing my elbow out causing and angled contact and creating side spin. This sidespin then derails my thin cuts when I add draw.

Hey everyone - Work travel and a toddler has delayed me up from getting a couple dedicated hours to work on this. But I was able to this week and I think we're in much better shape. With this post I got a ton of great feedback, advice, and drills which I absorbed and will share with my team. Thank you very much to everyone that was generous with their time! I've logged the helpful comments for reference.

I believe the larger issue was not isolated to a draw shot itself but adding power to my stroke needed for said draw shots. While I am very comfortable with (and prefer) slow rolling shots for thin cuts, safeties, runs achieved by low action on the CB etc., the increased power I would apply to draw shots has me "outside in". I believe essentially the more power I apply the more I swing out my elbow on my down stroke.

To relate it to golf, swinging over the top/outside in strikes the golf ball at an angle and creating side spin (aka a slice) In pool, this subtle spin did not affect straight shots with draw enough for me to miss, but causes me to hit cut shots thick.

Thinner the cut and longer the shot - the more penalizing the effect.

More to practice on this, but loosening my grip and focusing on keeping my elbow movement linear seems to greatly helped. I look forward to working on the drills, particularly the "mighty X."

I wasn't gonna toss my hat in the ring on this as so many others had it knocked, so why try??
With the comment you made I just read I'll go ahead and say what I was going to initially... You're draw shot needs work. I think you might be punching it rather than a nice smooth snap and follow thru. Too much cue elevation perhaps?? Only you can be the judge.
If you can't get the wrist/follow combo consistent, forget the snap and just get as low as you can and drive it thru. Watch the power. You need not hit the gas to draw well. Chances are you'll miss the shot by overpowering it. Smooth, level, follow thru, less power and don't try to pull off really thin cuts w draw. There's far better ways to make the shot and get shape off these anyway.
I'll probly regret commenting on this since I haven't read all the what I'm sure is excellent advice and suggestions from those who view themselves as excellent players/instructors.
I like to keep things as simple as possible bcuz I like easy shots.
Try working from mid table, lots of stun and low, minimal speed and english, one rail and back to center. Park yourself there and work out and back. You're opponent will hate you bcuz you won't have to make all those hard shots you used to that he still has to.
Somebody once said something about a guy never picking a shot his grandmother couldn't make. That's a pretty good indication of solid center table position play.
Make this game as easy as you can for yourself my friend. Once the auto pilot kicks in, you're gonna start having a whole lot more fun!!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

… my hip wasn’t allowing enough room for my arm to swing freely and it was my way to compensate.

I had the same issue - for me the solution was pretty simple: I just turned to face the stick (“closed” my stance) a little more and held my elbow a little farther from my body.

pj
chgo

 

[WobblyStroke]

I have also struggled with a stroke that pulled away from my body on take-off. The culprit was my hip wasn’t allowing enough room for my arm to swing freely and it was my way to compensate. I used to notice a little twist of left spin on most shots; enough that identical shots cut left and right felt different.

A lack of clearance is a common problem that many people subconsciously just stroke around, whether it be their hip or chest. That said, this problem of the elbow coming out can be happening for a variety of reasons, with a variety of solutions to the cause of the common symptom. This makes it very difficult to solve without the aid of some video analysis or a competent in-person instructor.

It's no different than a slice in golf. The symptom of the clubface being open relative to the club path at contact is the same for all slicers, but there can be so many causes of this condition at contact that you can find a dozen different 'fixes' on youtube. This overload of information that is correct, but doesn't necessarily apply to you is why most people can't learn a thing from YT vids. A session or two with a good instructor can save a player 100s of hours. Well worth the investment...whether for golf or pool.

 

[jbart65]

If you can't get the wrist/follow combo consistent, forget the snap and just get as low as you can and drive it thru. Watch the power. You need not hit the gas to draw well. Chances are you'll miss the shot by overpowering it. Smooth, level, follow thru, less power and don't try to pull off really thin cuts w draw. There's far better ways to make the shot and get shape off these anyway.
Try working from mid table, lots of stun and low, minimal speed and english, one rail and back to center. Park yourself there and work out and back. You're opponent will hate you bcuz you won't have to make all those hard shots you used to that he still has to.

Good advice, Mensabum, that I had to learn the hard way. Most people at my hall punch the ball and are usually decelerating on draw strokes at the point of contact.

Start with shorter draw shots to master and then work your way back. Pull the cue back like an arrow, pause and accelerate smoothly thru the cue ball - meaning the tip should go 6-8 inches past the point of contact as you follow thru.

 

[Fats_Brown_Lives]

Good advice, Mensabum, that I had to learn the hard way. Most people at my hall punch the ball and are usually decelerating on draw strokes at the point of contact.

Start with shorter draw shots to master and then work your way back. Pull the cue back like an arrow, pause and accelerate smoothly thru the cue ball - meaning the tip should go 6-8 inches past the point of contact as you follow thru.

Great comment. To continue my golf comparison - I have the best success putting with a similar strategy. Focus on a controlled relaxed pull back, PAUSING (however briefly), then steady acceleration through the ball (while "staying down on the ball"). These fundamentals serve me in pool too.

Whether or not I do it consistently is another story! The mechanics may falter with my attempts to include draw. I'm working on that.

 

[jbart65]

Niels Feijin, a top pro, and Jeremy Jones, a top broadcaster, both constantly liken pool swings to golf swings. From putting to teeing up. Feijin also sees similarities in baseball swings while Jones sees a similar process involved in throwing a baseball, taking a free throw ...

 

[WobblyStroke]

Niels Feijin, a top pro, and Jeremy Jones, a top broadcaster, both constantly liken pool swings to golf swings. From putting to teeing up. Feijin also sees similarities in baseball swings while Jones sees a similar process involved in throwing a baseball taking a free throw ...

There are many underlying motor-control principles that apply to a wide variety of movements.
It is no surprise to me at all that Corey Deuel and Earl Strickland, two of the most talented players ever and absolute naturals, were also excellent golfers.

 

[Big8foot]

[10/24 Edit -I have enough to move forward from this post and appreciate the helpful thoughts and tips. I'll pay it forward best I can!]

Hi all - first post. Anyone have guidance on how to hit a standard cut shot with normal back draw? I am comfortable hitting cuts and draw shots, but when I combine it - I miss at a frustrating percentage. I've researched it and scoured youtube, but no one seems to have trouble making the object ball or offer any methods different than if I were to hit center or top English.


Any thoughts/help?

Draw makes cut induced throbs worse so unless there is an exact cue ball position you are trying to get too, always use a touch of outside when you draw a cut, this will cancel out the throw. And use a low deflection shaft or you will need to compensate the outside spin. Nothing makes these easier than a Predator Revo, don’t believe the folks that say defection isn’t important. Revos deflect but spin induced throw balances that out on most shots and many shots you won’t need any compensation for side spin. It’s so subtle your will feel like you aiming side spin like a firm middle ball top shot that has almost no throw.

 

[7stud]

Draw makes cut induced throbs worse

No. Draw or topspin ALWAYS results in the least amount of CIT possible:

Draw dramatically decreases the throw (compared to stun) near half ball cuts (30 degrees). For thin cuts (> 75 degrees), stun, draw, and follow all produce about the same amount of CIT.

https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/oct06.pdf

 

[Jaden]

Apologies, don't take my comments as a personal attack. Although you seem to have taken them as such. It was not the intention. As you have said, this is the internet, and more than just yourself will venture here looking for insight.

However, clearly whatever you were doing did effect the shot or you wouldn't have been missing it. So, there's your answer. The obvious recourse is to alter said aim, and retain that information for the next similar situation. Why that rinse / repeat needs to be vetted on the internet is what baffles me. Again, no personal attack toward you. Just a general statement as a critique to the need for social media justification most crave these days. You could have resolved the matter on the table with the amount of time misdirected to this thread.

This is akin to posting to a woodworking forum about what to do to stop the pain you feel when you hit your hand with a hammer.

This is horrible advice, not only is it negative but it could just be plain wrong. You might be perfectly aligned with your aim and be missing for any number of reasons. Having your stance off, decelerating on the stroke, not being on the center line of the CB, not bridging at the pivot point and putting unintended side spin due to poor stroke.

It's not as simple as adjusting your aim. That can lead to ALL sorts of long term problems, bad muscle memory and hitting plateaus that are insurmountable without a complete breakdown of everything and much hard work.

Jaden

 

[Fats_Brown_Lives]

This is horrible advice, not only is it negative but it could just be plain wrong. You might be perfectly aligned with your aim and be missing for any number of reasons. Having your stance off, decelerating on the stroke, not being on the center line of the CB, not bridging at the pivot point and putting unintended side spin due to poor stroke.

It's not as simple as adjusting your aim. That can lead to ALL sorts of long term problems, bad muscle memory and hitting plateaus that are insurmountable without a complete breakdown of everything and much hard work.

Jaden

Appreciate the comment and sentiment. I am comfortable with my aiming or at least enough to know there are other aspects of my game/stroke that are a higher priority.

 

[maha]

everyone has their own way of getting a straight stroke in any sport. there is no way to make their journey quicker or better by using a routine that doesn't work for them. all that does is ingrain something into their setup and stroke that will be there forever and hold them back.

 

[The_JV]

This is horrible advice, not only is it negative but it could just be plain wrong. You might be perfectly aligned with your aim and be missing for any number of reasons. Having your stance off, decelerating on the stroke, not being on the center line of the CB, not bridging at the pivot point and putting unintended side spin due to poor stroke.

It's not as simple as adjusting your aim. That can lead to ALL sorts of long term problems, bad muscle memory and hitting plateaus that are insurmountable without a complete breakdown of everything and much hard work.

Jaden

Should probably read all the comments.

 

[SeniorTom]

There are many underlying motor-control principles that apply to a wide variety of movements.
It is no surprise to me at all that Corey Deuel and Earl Strickland, two of the most talented players ever and absolute naturals, were also excellent golfers.

I have been involved in some sort of sport my entire life, baseball, volleyball basketball golfing, shooting pistol and rifle competitively and now pool. Each and every sport needs good hand-eye coordination and athleticism to compete well in. It's amazing how much pistol shooting and rifle shooting parallel some skill sets in shooting pool.