Hosting a tournament, looking for ideas

[OneHandedBreak]

Aside from pool one of my other passions is surfing. I am a member of a surf club and we compete in contests against other clubs all up and down the west coast. In conjunction with a yearly surf contest our club hosts in early October I am planning a first annual pool tournament in honor of a local legend whose health is failing. It will be held at a local bar with two bar boxes. I would love to see this become an annual thing.

Being the first time we've done this and not knowing the skill level of many of the players I have some options to consider, such as:

1. Should I have divisions for different skill levels? Like A & B, where A players have to win 2 games and B players only one?

On one hand it could keep things more fair. On the other hand there could be some sandbagging since many of the players are unknown quantities.

2. Should we use "Bar" rules (call shot, pocket scratches in kitchen, no safeties) or APA rules (call pocket, table/pocket scratches are ball in hand, safeties allowed)?

"Bar" rules are definitely going to be more familiar to most players. Very few will be familiar with the concepts of table scratches or what's a legal safety. However we will have a little over 2 months to let everyone become familiar with whatever rules we choose.

3. Singles or doubles?

If I have A&B divisions then it would make sense that each team would have to have at least one "B" player.

4. If doubles, Scotch doubles?

Not many people are familiar with that format but I like how it keeps both players involved.

These are just a few thoughts I have early on. Anything else I should consider?

 

[hang-the-9]

Races to 2, normal rules (WPA) 9 ball. 8 ball with two tables will take too long with low level players unless you either have few players or all day to spend there, or do single elimination. Or do races to 3 with single elimination so the teams get to play a bit. With players potentially taking several turns at making each ball, waiting for both of them to sink all the balls to get to the 8 ball can get frustrating, with both players going for the same balls as in 9 ball, plus the fact you can make the 9 early and win, will make the games go by faster. Teaching someone the rules of the game properly takes several minutes, it's just a matter of actually teaching the correct rules. Post the rules in the area, provide links to video resources for examples. Bar rules are basically no rules and vary from place to place.

Charity tournaments in my opinion should be to the benefit of the charity not to make money for players winning. Most of the events I played in there was not even money given out, just a few trophies and free food. Don't worry too much about the handicaps, you can sort that out depending on who shows up, handicaps or not is a no win situation, either people complain that they are playing even with better players or others are complaining that the handicap is not fair because Joe beats them all the time but he got in as a 2 instead of a 3. Simple way to weed out sandbagging, don't put a lot of money back the players, if they whine, they should not be playing in a charity fundraiser in the first place. Or maybe hold a side pot for the players if they want in some extra cash. Say $10 entry, $8 goes to charity, optional side pot of $5 or $10 that goes all to the players. Usually only the better players go in on that, so they can fight it out between them for the money.

Donations from people or business are good for prizes or raffles, maybe a few $100 cue sticks or something, nice bottles of alcohol, gift certificates, etc...

Alternate shot doubles is really the only "doubles" play, if the players just shoot till they miss it's playing two singles matches on the same table, not doubles. In doubles play the weakness and strength of both players should be used, not just a win when the better player gets on the table and the others are just batting balls around till that happens. I mean imagine doubles tennis where only one of the players on the team is on for each point or 2v2 basketball when the same thing happens, 1v1, score, another 1v1, score, another 1v1. A doubles team is played as a single player or it's just singles with more people.

 

[justnum]

Have 14.1 high run challenge. Call it West Coast TableMaster Annual Memorial for "___", can you tame the table?

 

[Pacecar]

Finishing within your allotted time should be a high priority, so that future tournaments will have good participation. Dragged out tournaments finishing at 2 a.m. are not enjoyable when the primary purpose of the tournament is to have fun. You only have 2 pool tables. That is a big disadvantage.
Use the website or app 'Challonge.com' to conduct your brackets. The Challonge bracket will indicate the number of matches required. Double elimination vs. single elimination.

The turnaround for an average single game of 8-ball of regular bar players is about 11.5 minutes per game.

My experience is the following:

T = [(G - 5) / P * M] + 45
-where T is the total time in minutes
-where G is the total number of games in the tourney
-where P is the number of pool tables
-where M is the average number of minutes per game
-where 45 is the estimated number of minutes that it takes for the last 5 games of the tourney, due to using fewer tables and waiting on games to finish

According to the Challonge bracket - double elimination:
A 32 person tourney has 63 games (if the final requires 2 games)
A 34 person tourney has 67 games
A 36 person tourney has 71 games
A 38 person tourney has 75 games

 

[Rusty in Montana]

I'd suggest getting other bar's involved in it that are in the area if possible , this is how our local tournaments are held I hope this helps .

 

[Woodshaft]

Finishing within your allotted time should be a high priority, so that future tournaments will have good participation. Dragged out tournaments finishing at 2 a.m. are not enjoyable when the primary purpose of the tournament is to have fun. You only have 2 pool tables. That is a big disadvantage.
Use the website or app 'Challonge.com' to conduct your brackets. The Challonge bracket will indicate the number of matches required. Double elimination vs. single elimination.

The turnaround for an average single game of 8-ball of regular bar players is about 11.5 minutes per game.

My experience is the following:

T = [(G - 5) / P * M] + 45
-where T is the total time in minutes
-where G is the total number of games in the tourney
-where P is the number of pool tables
-where M is the average number of minutes per game
-where 45 is the estimated number of minutes that it takes for the last 5 games of the tourney, due to using fewer tables and waiting on games to finish

According to the Challonge bracket - double elimination:
A 32 person tourney has 63 games (if the final requires 2 games)
A 34 person tourney has 67 games
A 36 person tourney has 71 games
A 38 person tourney has 75 games

And don't forget E=mc^2 and F=ma.
Properly equating the Energy and Force of Amateur tournaments are the keys to success!

 

[Bob Jewett]

Make it single elimination, race to one. As that is finishing, if you have time, start a second tournament. Minimize the waiting. Figure about 15 minutes per game if they aren't pool players. I'm thinking an APA 4 will be the King.

Don't worry about divisions the first year. You could do scotch doubles to increase interest in each match.

16 players (or pairs):
R1: 8 matches, 4 sets of matches, one hour
R2: 4 matches, 2 sets of matches, half an hour
R3: 2 matches, 1 set, 15 minutes
R4: 1 match, 1 match, 15 minutes
Total two hours

32 players: 16 more matches at the start in 8 sets of matches, so two more hours or four total.

Even tournament directors can't always follow double elimination. Don't do that to your players.

 

[OneHandedBreak]

Races to 2, normal rules (WPA) 9 ball. 8 ball with two tables will take too long with low level players unless you either have few players or all day to spend there, or do single elimination. Or do races to 3 with single elimination so the teams get to play a bit. With players potentially taking several turns at making each ball, waiting for both of them to sink all the balls to get to the 8 ball can get frustrating, with both players going for the same balls as in 9 ball, plus the fact you can make the 9 early and win, will make the games go by faster. Teaching someone the rules of the game properly takes several minutes, it's just a matter of actually teaching the correct rules. Post the rules in the area, provide links to video resources for examples. Bar rules are basically no rules and vary from place to place.

While I agree that 9 ball would make games go quicker among seasoned players, I'm not so sure about novices who can spend lots of time between shots just trying to grok the rules. It seems like a wash what with most bar players being most familiar with "bar rules" 8 ball. But still, maybe... (we do have the enough time to do some advance market research lol)

Charity tournaments in my opinion should be to the benefit of the charity not to make money for players winning. Most of the events I played in there was not even money given out, just a few trophies and free food. Don't worry too much about the handicaps, you can sort that out depending on who shows up, handicaps or not is a no win situation, either people complain that they are playing even with better players or others are complaining that the handicap is not fair because Joe beats them all the time but he got in as a 2 instead of a 3. Simple way to weed out sandbagging, don't put a lot of money back the players, if they whine, they should not be playing in a charity fundraiser in the first place. Or maybe hold a side pot for the players if they want in some extra cash. Say $10 entry, $8 goes to charity, optional side pot of $5 or $10 that goes all to the players. Usually only the better players go in on that, so they can fight it out between them for the money.

I'm thinking $20 per head/team, with $10 toward the pot and $10 toward the charity, with additional donations accepted (which with this crowd will not be an issue).

Donations from people or business are good for prizes or raffles, maybe a few $100 cue sticks or something, nice bottles of alcohol, gift certificates, etc...

That's a great idea to sweeten the pot, only with this crowd it would include bars of wax, nice bottles of alcohol, etc... ;-)

Alternate shot doubles is really the only "doubles" play, if the players just shoot till they miss it's playing two singles matches on the same table, not doubles. In doubles play the weakness and strength of both players should be used, not just a win when the better player gets on the table and the others are just batting balls around till that happens. I mean imagine doubles tennis where only one of the players on the team is on for each point or 2v2 basketball when the same thing happens, 1v1, score, another 1v1, score, another 1v1. A doubles team is played as a single player or it's just singles with more people.

I agree, and like I said we have two months lead time to get this into everyone's head. I'm starting to lean toward co-ed scotch doubles.

 

[Fatboy]

Make it single elimination, race to one. As that is finishing, if you have time, start a second tournament. Minimize the waiting. Figure about 15 minutes per game if they aren't pool players. I'm thinking an APA 4 will be the King.

Don't worry about divisions the first year. You could do scotch doubles to increase interest in each match.

16 players (or pairs):
R1: 8 matches, 4 sets of matches, one hour
R2: 4 matches, 2 sets of matches, half an hour
R3: 2 matches, 1 set, 15 minutes
R4: 1 match, 1 match, 15 minutes
Total two hours

32 players: 16 more matches at the start in 8 sets of matches, so two more hours or four total.

Even tournament directors can't always follow double elimination. Don't do that to your players.

I’ve seen that format and it works GREAT

Bob is spot on here.

Best of luck, and for doing a cool thing

Fatboy Approved

 

[wakuljr]

Finishing within your allotted time should be a high priority, so that future tournaments will have good participation. Dragged out tournaments finishing at 2 a.m. are not enjoyable when the primary purpose of the tournament is to have fun. You only have 2 pool tables. That is a big disadvantage.
Use the website or app 'Challonge.com' to conduct your brackets. The Challonge bracket will indicate the number of matches required. Double elimination vs. single elimination.

The turnaround for an average single game of 8-ball of regular bar players is about 11.5 minutes per game.

My experience is the following:

T = [(G - 5) / P * M] + 45
-where T is the total time in minutes
-where G is the total number of games in the tourney
-where P is the number of pool tables
-where M is the average number of minutes per game
-where 45 is the estimated number of minutes that it takes for the last 5 games of the tourney, due to using fewer tables and waiting on games to finish

According to the Challonge bracket - double elimination:
A 32 person tourney has 63 games (if the final requires 2 games)
A 34 person tourney has 67 games
A 36 person tourney has 71 games
A 38 person tourney has 75 games

I like math

 

[ChrisinNC]

Aside from pool one of my other passions is surfing. I am a member of a surf club and we compete in contests against other clubs all up and down the west coast. In conjunction with a yearly surf contest our club hosts in early October I am planning a first annual pool tournament in honor of a local legend whose health is failing. It will be held at a local bar with two bar boxes. I would love to see this become an annual thing.

Being the first time we've done this and not knowing the skill level of many of the players I have some options to consider, such as:

1. Should I have divisions for different skill levels? Like A & B, where A players have to win 2 games and B players only one?

On one hand it could keep things more fair. On the other hand there could be some sandbagging since many of the players are unknown quantities.

2. Should we use "Bar" rules (call shot, pocket scratches in kitchen, no safeties) or APA rules (call pocket, table/pocket scratches are ball in hand, safeties allowed)?

"Bar" rules are definitely going to be more familiar to most players. Very few will be familiar with the concepts of table scratches or what's a legal safety. However we will have a little over 2 months to let everyone become familiar with whatever rules we choose.

3. Singles or doubles?

If I have A&B divisions then it would make sense that each team would have to have at least one "B" player.

4. If doubles, Scotch doubles?

Not many people are familiar with that format but I like how it keeps both players involved.

These are just a few thoughts I have early on. Anything else I should consider?

With only two tables to use, the format will be based on how many entrants you have, and how long you want the tournament to last until it’s conclusion? You can figure out 10-12 minutes per game and then just try to figure out how many total games will need to be played to the conclusion, based on the number of players, the length of the races and whether you’re playing single or double elimination. It would be advised to have someone running the tournament that has some experience with doing this.

Since it’s basically a fundraiser and I assume the winner will get a token prize, I don’t really know if handicaping the players is necessary or a good idea, as there are always borderline players that will be extremely tough to handicap.

Briefly going over the 8-ball rules you plan to use before you start is absolutely necessary to avoid confusion/conflicts. If most players are used to bar table rules, considering this is just basically a fun tournament, that’s what I would recommend everyone would be more comfortable with playing. However, to keep the games and the tournament moving at a good pace, ball-in-hand anywhere on the table for all all fouls, except on the break (BIH behind the headstring), would be highly recommended, but you’ll need to clearly stipulate what constitutes a foul.

Doubles is always more fun and sociable, and with your limited number of tables, if you have a decent number of entrants, that may be the way to go. Just somehow try to make sure that your most skilled players don’t get paired to play with each other and the same for two beginner level players. Good luck!

 

[OneHandedBreak]

With only two tables to use, the format will be based on how many entrants you have, and how long you want the tournament to last until it’s conclusion? You can figure out 10-12 minutes per game and then just try to figure out how many total games will need to be played to the conclusion, based on the number of players, the length of the races and whether you’re playing single or double elimination. It would be advised to have someone running the tournament that has some experience with doing this.

Since it’s basically a fundraiser and I assume the winner will get a token prize, I don’t really know if handicaping the players is necessary or a good idea, as there are always borderline players that will be extremely tough to handicap.

Briefly going over the 8-ball rules you plan to use before you start is absolutely necessary to avoid confusion/conflicts. If most players are used to bar table rules, considering this is just basically a fun tournament, that’s what I would recommend everyone would be more comfortable with playing. However, to keep the games and the tournament moving at a good pace, ball-in-hand anywhere on the table for all all fouls, except on the break (BIH behind the headstring), would be highly recommended, but you’ll need to clearly stipulate what constitutes a foul.

Doubles is always more fun and sociable, and with your limited number of tables, if you have a decent number of entrants, that may be the way to go. Just somehow try to make sure that your most skilled players don’t get paired to play with each other and the same for two beginner level players. Good luck!

I'm leaning toward a field of 16 mixed Scotch doubles teams, one male one female, double elimination. This alone will prevent too much sandbagging compared to singles. Then again this is a pretty tight group, so I don't really anticipate any nasty shenanigans. Also most of the people who are likely to sign up will probably have already played with or against each other before and have some sort of track record.

I should also add that I am considering having the semis and finals on Saturday night, which will give everyone involved two days to talk trash before the highly anticipated finals.

According to Challonge with 16 teams that's 31 matches and according to the brilliant formula developed by Pacecar it should clock in at 3-4 hours. If we stop on Thursday after Round 3 that will be 24 matches, so that means ~2.5-3 hours on Thursday and nobody has to stay up real late. With Challonge on one of the big TVs and 16 teams it will plenty easy to follow.

The entry will probably be $20 per team, with $10 toward the pot and the other half toward the beneficiary. We should get plenty of extra donations too I think.

We will definitely post all rules clearly and well in advance. We may go with a slightly modified version of the house rules at this bar:

1. Pocket scratches only, no table scratches except on 8 ball, in which case the cue ball must hit at least 3 rails if shooting at the 8 and not making contact, in which case opponent gets ball in hand anywhere on the table
2. Call pocket, not shot
3. All scratches go in the kitchen
4. Open table until a ball is legally pocketed after the break
5. Early 8/scratch on 8 is a loss
6. 8 ball break gets spotted and game goes on
7. No jump/masse shots over the shoulder

Anything else I'm missing?

 

[OneHandedBreak]

I just want to thank you all for your input. The event at first looked like it was going to be a real dud with only four teams, but my patience was rewarded when enough people finally trickled in to create an eight team tourney, one of which included the bar owner Jenn. She ended up being on the winning team, which meant the trophy I made got to stay in the bar forever. Everyone had such a great time that it's going to become an annual event, and we will create a plaque that show's each year's winners to display alongside the trophy. We put the whole pot toward our beneficiary who was super stoked, and our surf club even matched the amount so he got $320. Great times!

 

[maha]

great for you. but ive found to eliminate arguments in bars having any cue ball foul ball in hand. this way someone doesnt just roll the cueball someplace.
and stating safeties are allowed and part of pool.