How about a free Handicap system?

[Billiard Architect]

What you all think about setting up a web site that would be a nationwide handicap system. Using something like a locked down version of Fargo as a test. Like run the first 8 balls in any order then the last 7 in rotation. Do 10 racks of this to come up with a baseline and let people input their numbers. I know there is 99 @ pool and billiards magazine and others but all of those are pay sites. I could do one that would be free to the user and let advertisers make up the expense of the site.

 

[pooltchr]

What would prevent someone from being less than truthful when they entered their numbers? If I were a road player, it would be in my best interest to list the lowest numbers possible so I could get the nuts whenever I matched up. Look at all the threads about sandbagging in leagues to artificially lower handicaps. Do you think those players would give an honest self evaluation?
Steve

 

[bizzy]

Such system is allready there. PAT (Playing Ability Test)!!! Look here:

http://www.pat-billiard.com/

 

[supergreenman]

Handicap systems are and always have been at the mercy of sandbaggers.

 

[Snapshot9]

2 rooms

here are already using a National Handicapping system, and I have never agreed with it. You can lose for weeks, and your handicap may go down 1-3 points, but win one week, and it goes up 17-19 points. It is not a true judge of skill levels because:

1) Lessor players are usually set too low even though they never win.
(over compensation)
2) Better players, if they get in the money, are often elevated above their true skill level because of:
a) Winning when the overall competition level is below average.
b) They know how to play safeties and lessor players don't so much.
c) 6-2 races are hard to overcome when the lessor player can run the table from the break, yet they have a handicap of 30-40.
d) it is suppose to be tracked on a per match basis, yet the up and down adjustment is skewed on the high side going up and low going down.

I came up with a handicap system, that can be converted to any league handicap equilavent out there, and it is based on 10 ball (OR BOWLIARDS as you know it). When first establishing the handicap, there are cash prizes for incentive to shoot your true speed.

 

[Billiard Architect]

Such system is allready there. PAT (Playing Ability Test)!!! Look here:

http://www.pat-billiard.com/

You need to be rated by a "paid" authorized ratee.

 

[Bob Jewett]

What you all think about setting up a web site that would be a nationwide handicap system. ...

There was something like this at laddersonline.com. You signed up to play near-by members and recorded your scores and the system figured out your relative ranking by a method similar to the basis of the chess rating system and the NPL. It was pretty well designed.

It got a little use when first announced and then fell into disrepair. I think it was free.

My own feeling is that the national governing body of pool should maintain a player ranking/rating list like the USCF http://www.uschess.org/ratings/

 

[Ruthless]

Handicaps = Affirmative Action for pool.

Very few people ever progress or want to progress playing under a handicap system. 95% of players want a lower handicap than they actually should have. As a former APA League Operator I witnessed this hundreds of times. As a Pro player the only system I see that could possibly ever get close to working is the A-B-C-D Player ratings.

Try to get a game in AZ (I did too many times to count) and all they ask is "What are you rated?". If you are not rated they run.............

Handicaps leave very little Incentive for players to becme a better overall player, sad but true.

Run what you brung or stay at the house, if you need weight go to Ballys or put in the thousands of hours of dedicated practice I have to improve my game. There are no shortcuts to the upper levels

 

[Bob Jewett]

.. Handicaps leave very little Incentive for players to becme a better overall player, sad but true....

I would agree for systems like the APA and the USPPA, but I think this is not true for systems that adjust ratings based solely on win/loss record. In such a system, you can only outperform the field by improving.

 

[Ruthless]

I would agree for systems like the APA and the USPPA, but I think this is not true for systems that adjust ratings based solely on win/loss record. In such a system, you can only outperform the field by improving.

It would still be hard to do.

If you go by win/loss then would the handicap be in the number of balls or games? Because each way would limit the handicap system to the amount of categories players would fit in. The less the number of categories the harder players would have to strive to win. That is why I stated the A-B-C-D player system could possibly be made to work.

I would rather give up 4 games than 7 balls in a race to 7 with a D Player.

I wish you only the Best in Life

 

[jjinfla]

Table tennis (ping pong) has a pretty good rating system. Not a handicap system. When players compete in sanctioned tournaments their results are tabulated and their rating changes a few points.

The problem with rating systems is that they are labor intensive.

Jake

 

[Billiard Architect]

Table tennis (ping pong) has a pretty good rating system. Not a handicap system. When players compete in sanctioned tournaments their results are tabulated and their rating changes a few points.

The problem with rating systems is that they are labor intensive.

Jake

True. But golf has a handicapping system and they do it just like I am proposing. Could restart laddersonline there again...

 

[pooltchr]

True. But golf has a handicapping system and they do it just like I am proposing. Could restart laddersonline there again...

Golf ratings are based on how a player does against the course, not how they do against other players.
There is no such thing as shooting "par" in pool.
Steve

 

[Gregg]

Handicaps = Affirmative Action for pool.

Very few people ever progress or want to progress playing under a handicap system. 95% of players want a lower handicap than they actually should have. As a former APA League Operator I witnessed this hundreds of times. As a Pro player the only system I see that could possibly ever get close to working is the A-B-C-D Player ratings.

Try to get a game in AZ (I did too many times to count) and all they ask is "What are you rated?". If you are not rated they run.............

Handicaps leave very little Incentive for players to became a better overall player, sad but true.

Run what you bring or stay at the house, if you need weight go to Ballys or put in the thousands of hours of dedicated practice I have to improve my game. There are no shortcuts to the upper levels

I respect your ideas and thoughts, and personally find them valid points.

But if you want to have a weekly tournament, the best way to make people bail is to make it top heavy and have only a couple or a few have any real chance of winning.

IMO what keeps our local 9 ball tournament going is the fact that just about anybody has a chance of winning do to the handicap system they use.

As far as the handicap systems vs. improvement, I have never played competitively until a few years ago, where I started out as an APA SL2, and weak at that. Now I shoot about an hour a day, and have improved to a decent SL5. I'm proud of my improvement, even if a SL5 can't hold the jock of a guy who has 1,000s of hours of table time. That won't be me, with my work schedule, and family.

Just some ramblings from me, Mr. King Contradiction.

 

[Deadstroker]

how about a free handicap system

Hey Ruthless, how long were you a league operator and why are you not one today.

 

[Bob Jewett]

It would still be hard to do.

If you go by win/loss then would the handicap be in the number of balls or games? Because each way would limit the handicap system to the amount of categories players would fit in. The less the number of categories the harder players would have to strive to win. That is why I stated the A-B-C-D player system could possibly be made to work.

I would rather give up 4 games than 7 balls in a race to 7 with a D Player.
...

It's not hard to do at all. Adjusting ratings based on matches is simple. It requires no score sheets. The handicapped straight pool league I play in has a top player rated at about 800 and a weakest player rated at about 450. That's 350 active levels, if you want to think about it that way.

The NPL is an example use of such a system at nine ball. The handicap there is by number of games, and there are about 80-90 active levels.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The problem with rating systems is that they are labor intensive.

The main work is setting up the system and registering players. The rating machinery itself should not require much maintenance. You do have to enter scores, however, or at least the players have to enter scores.