How aiming got its own zone?

Bambu

Dave Manasseri
Silver Member
I dont know how much more specific I could be, just trying to figure out why some people think its better. If the bridge length doesnt add to the accuracy of the method, what then?
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Question here Joey. Am I correct in assuming that pro-1 is more accurate than any other version of cte because it calls for different bridge lengths? Are there any other reasons its better for you, or is it just your preference? How long did you need to work with it before you felt good about it?

I think it is more accurate than other versions of cte because of the aiming coordinates on the object ball. I also believe that Pro1 allows you to simply place the bridge hand where it needs to go to find the perfect sight picture.

The answer to your last question is: Everything is relative and it varies from one person to another. I think I got very comfortable with it because of the one on one lesson. When you're missing a shot using CTE/Pro1 and you have Stan on your one yard line, you can ask him anything and he will give you an honest response. It gives the student a lot of confidence knowing that the teacher can not just talk the talk but walk the walk. For me, I liked it right away but didn't really feel like I was proficient with it for a few months. As I've said before, it's not just the aiming that you benefit from but the alignment and the visual picture that you start seeing over and over. It is a consistent way to look at shots with a few exceptions and you start to develop some "eye memory". Eye memory is something I just coined just now. Eye memory is seeing a familiar sight picture that you know is "on". Some people automatically see the sight picture and others, well, like me, need a little help. :smile: Look, it's not the Holy Grail but CTE/Pro1 is something that you can learn and it's not going to hurt your pool game, at least it didn't hurt mine.

Today I played in a handicapped 8 ball tournament, won a couple of matches and lost a couple of matches. I lost to one guy who only had to win 3 games while I had to win 5 games. The other loss was to a guy who only had to win 3 games, while I had to win 6 games. These two guys play 8 ball three or four times a week and their handicap was low and even using CTE/Pro1, I couldn't overcome the spot. So it doesn't make you invincible. :p

My son only had to win two games and his match with me went hill-hill.:D

Hopefully, I will just have a good time in North Dakota and won't be so pressured like I was in the handicapped tournament. Still, even with the ass whipping from lesser players, I am glad I played in it. It gave me a feel for what other 8 ball players can do on the table.
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Kinda weird that the dvd doesnt discuss bridge length. The info Dave posted must have come from somewhere. Same question either way, whats better about pro-1, how is it more accurate?

I agree with Champ. Different bridge lengths aren't a consideration for me. If I change my bridge length, I don't know about it or I don't pay attention to it. It isn't something that we dwelled on when I took the one on one lesson with Stan.
 

AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... Am I correct in assuming that pro-1 is more accurate than any other version of cte because it calls for different bridge lengths? ...

The little thats out there about pro-1 says bridge length matters. ...

Kinda weird that the dvd doesnt discuss bridge length. ...

... If the bridge length doesnt add to the accuracy of the method, what then?

Bambu -- I'll just amplify a little on what champ has said about bridge lengths in responding to your four posts cited above.

Stan's manual CTE
Bridge length is important with this technique. Stan recommends bridge lengths from about 5" to 9" depending on the distance between the CB and OB (longer bridge lengths for longer distances apart). You can easily understand how bridge length affects the final line of aim using a manual pivot. With manual CTE, the bridge hand slides into place on the table with the cue stick offset from center CB by 1/2 tip. Then the stick is pivoted to center CB. During that pivot, the tip only moves by a small amount, let's say 1/4". But if that 1/4" tip movement is being achieved with a short bridge length (short pivot point), the stick will have to be angled more from its original position than it would be for the same 1/4" tip movement achieved with a longer bridge length. And that means the final line of aim will be different with different bridge lengths.

[Incidentally, Stan's use of a 1/2-tip pivot kind of minimizes the problems of getting the right bridge length to work in conjunction with the pivot. If a 1/2-ball offset (prior to pivot) is used instead, as in another version of CTE, the tip has to move much farther during the pivot than it does with a 1/2-tip pivot. If the stick were pivoted from normal bridge lengths with a 1/2-ball pivot, many shots would be way overcut or undercut. So an effective pivot point well behind the bridge is used for that method.]​

Stan's Pro1
Bridge length is less important with this technique, although Stan does recommend something in the range of 8" to 12". With Pro1, there is no manual, on-the-table pivoting. Instead, the bridge hand slides into place on the table already at center CB. The equivalent of the right or left pivot in CTE is accomplished in Pro1 through eye and body movements, not by cue movements. For a right pivot, the eyes and body move down to the right of the center-to-edge line (CTEL); for a left pivot, the eyes and body rotate to the left of the CTEL. With the tip being pointed at center CB when the hand is placed on the table, and no pivoting from there, bridge length is less critical than with manual CTE.​

Bridge distances are covered on the third screen of the Glossary on Stan's DVD.

As to accuracy of Stan's manual CTE versus Pro1, my understanding is that they are the same. Pro1 is just a more "elegant" way to place the stick on the same aiming line that would be achieved with Stan's manual CTE.


[Edit -- JoeyA, I didn't read your posts #22 and #23 until after I wrote this post.]
[Edit2 -- added "Stan's" to last paragraph just to be clear.]
 
Last edited:

champ2107

Banned
I dont know how much more specific I could be, just trying to figure out why some people think its better. If the bridge length doesnt add to the accuracy of the method, what then?

Now those other systems, for cuts to the left, they have 3 alignments ete, etc and edge to opposite edge and a pivot from the edge of the cue ball, where as cte/pro1 has 7 actual possible alignments total, for cuts to the left and a half a tip pivot from center cue ball. I assume you can put this all together.


Now you can "master" any system and you will be gtg! spiderwebcom has the 1/2 ball pivot system mastered, does that mean if he learned any other system he will play better, I doubt it. Will spiderwebcom tell you cte/pro1 is the better system then the others, I believe he would.

trust me, don't worry about the bridging its really a non factor in manual cte,you will most likely be bridged at the proper distance but if you chose to make this a big deal, so be it and this will be the wall that stops you. If you have learned enough to make it to pro1, bridge length will never cross your mind and as i said before it didn't cross my mind using manual cte, either.
 
Last edited:

Bambu

Dave Manasseri
Silver Member
Thanks all, for clearing that up a little. I only try to understand this because I'm an instructor, I find it interesting. (I dont teach pro 1 or plan on it, nothing like that.) Does the pocket come into play using either method?
 

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Bambu -- I'll just amplify a little on what champ has said about bridge lengths in responding to your four posts cited above.

Stan's manual CTE
Bridge length is important with this technique. Stan recommends bridge lengths from about 5" to 9" depending on the distance between the CB and OB (longer bridge lengths for longer distances apart). You can easily understand how bridge length affects the final line of aim using a manual pivot. With manual CTE, the bridge hand slides into place on the table with the cue stick offset from center CB by 1/2 tip. Then the stick is pivoted to center CB. During that pivot, the tip only moves by a small amount, let's say 1/4". But if that 1/4" tip movement is being achieved with a short bridge length (short pivot point), the stick will have to be angled more from its original position than it would be for the same 1/4" tip movement achieved with a longer bridge length. And that means the final line of aim will be different with different bridge lengths.

[Incidentally, Stan's use of a 1/2-tip pivot kind of minimizes the problems of getting the right bridge length to work in conjunction with the pivot. If a 1/2-ball offset (prior to pivot) is used instead, as in another version of CTE, the tip has to move much farther during the pivot than it does with a 1/2-tip pivot. If the stick were pivoted from normal bridge lengths with a 1/2-ball pivot, many shots would be way overcut or undercut. So an effective pivot point well behind the bridge is used for that method.]​

Stan's Pro1
Bridge length is less important with this technique, although Stan does recommend something in the range of 8" to 12". With Pro1, there is no manual, on-the-table pivoting. Instead, the bridge hand slides into place on the table already at center CB. The equivalent of the right or left pivot in CTE is accomplished in Pro1 through eye and body movements, not by cue movements. For a right pivot, the eyes and body move down to the right of the center-to-edge line (CTEL); for a left pivot, the eyes and body rotate to the left of the CTEL. With the tip being pointed at center CB when the hand is placed on the table, and no pivoting from there, bridge length is less critical than with manual CTE.​

Bridge distances are covered on the third screen of the Glossary on Stan's DVD.

As to accuracy of Stan's manual CTE versus Pro1, my understanding is that they are the same. Pro1 is just a more "elegant" way to place the stick on the same aiming line that would be achieved with Stan's manual CTE.


[Edit -- JoeyA, I didn't read your posts #22 and #23 until after I wrote this post.]
[Edit2 -- added "Stan's" to last paragraph just to be clear.]

Like I said, we didn't dwell on bridge lengths. I guess my bridge length was fine.

Who used the word "elegant"? Regardless, the last sentence shgould read "Pro1 is a more AUTOMATIC way to place the stick on the same aiming line that would be achieved with Stan's manual CTE."
 

champ2107

Banned
Thanks all, for clearing that up a little. I only try to understand this because I'm an instructor, I find it interesting. (I dont teach pro 1 or plan on it, nothing like that.) Does the pocket come into play using either method?

With cte/pro1, the pocket comes into play to show you what alignment that has to be used to pocket a ball in a specific pocket. I also believe with cte/pro1 the rookie to intermediate user should bring in the pocket position to help on certain tough cut angled shots they are not 100% sure on ( check the contact point) I do this occasionally and I believe JoeyA does this as well (we take advantage of the knowledge we have! We are smart! lol)

The other systems "needs" the pocket to help in "physical"aiming alignment on all shots, the systems are just too simplistic .
 
Last edited:

robsnotes4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
you want to try again, can i take a step without my brain having these millions of tiny adjustments milliseconds? keep it real. i can see you have no experience shooting a system like cte/pro1 and this what i have posted above :) im "guessing" your also the guy that has just been banned with multiple accounts, not that i really care :)

I dont understand your first question. The answer is no. From an outsider who has read numerous fights back and for on aiming, why do you discredit the power of the subconscious mind?

I purchased Stans DVD and really chuckled at the end for two reasons. First if it was a good system there would be no reason for a pivot to correct yourself.

Second do this experiment. First go in like you usually would a shoot your shot. Now do the exact same shot but thus time place your head in a different position move it 2-3 inches to the right or left then go in and shoot the shot. Different head position gives a different picture.

There are too many variables. What you don't know is your subconscious is making corrections in your stroke to help you.

Also on the video he calls it a center pocket system, what do you do if you want to enter the right side of the pocket?

All that being said, like a placebo, if you think it helps your game great it helps your game. Use it.

One last thought. I would love to see one of the CTE believers get hypnotized, get the conscious mind out of the way so you are only shooting with your subconscious mind. Film the results. I guarantee you will play the best. There will be no conflict between your minds. Yes you would be in the Zone.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
 

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
I dont understand your first question. The answer is no. From an outsider who has read numerous fights back and for on aiming, why do you discredit the power of the subconscious mind?

I purchased Stans DVD and really chuckled at the end for two reasons. First if it was a good system there would be no reason for a pivot to correct yourself.

Second do this experiment. First go in like you usually would a shoot your shot. Now do the exact same shot but thus time place your head in a different position move it 2-3 inches to the right or left then go in and shoot the shot. Different head position gives a different picture.

There are too many variables. What you don't know is your subconscious is making corrections in your stroke to help you.

Also on the video he calls it a center pocket system, what do you do if you want to enter the right side of the pocket?

All that being said, like a placebo, if you think it helps your game great it helps your game. Use it.

One last thought. I would love to see one of the CTE believers get hypnotized, get the conscious mind out of the way so you are only shooting with your subconscious mind. Film the results. I guarantee you will play the best. There will be no conflict between your minds. Yes you would be in the Zone.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

You don't understand the pivot. it's not to correct yourself. it's settling into the shot. Once your bridge hand hits the table, if you have lined up right using the references then the v-notch of your bridge and and center cue ball are the shot line.

The subconscious is not doing the work. That's like saying if I use a yardstick to measure my 2x4 to determine where I want to cut the board then my subconscious is doing the work.

A system user is CONSCIOUSLY using reference points to line their body up to the shot. Doing it that way leads to some shots where the shooter isn't sure that the line given by the system is "on" or not. But trusting that it is leads to made shots. Doing this repeatedly brands the shot picture in the mind to the point where there is no conflict and the shooter feels very comfortable with the shot line.

When it all comes together then the shooter can fall into the zone and shooting becomes very fluid and automatic.

That's when the subconscious takes the system and makes it work without much active thought about any particular part of it. The shooter sees the whole shot as he steps to the table, goes down and swings into the shot line easily and quickly.

As for the experiment with moving your head I have done it. This is EXACTLY where aiming systems are incredibly helpful and accurate. They FORCE the shooter to adopt the right line to get to the shot line. They take the illusion out of a lot of otherwise tricky shots and allow the shooter to focus on executing with no doubt that the shot line is correct.
 

champ2107

Banned
I dont understand your first question. The answer is no. From an outsider who has read numerous fights back and for on aiming, why do you discredit the power of the subconscious mind?

I purchased Stans DVD and really chuckled at the end for two reasons. First if it was a good system there would be no reason for a pivot to correct yourself.

Second do this experiment. First go in like you usually would a shoot your shot. Now do the exact same shot but thus time place your head in a different position move it 2-3 inches to the right or left then go in and shoot the shot. Different head position gives a different picture.

There are too many variables. What you don't know is your subconscious is making corrections in your stroke to help you.

Also on the video he calls it a center pocket system, what do you do if you want to enter the right side of the pocket?

All that being said, like a placebo, if you think it helps your game great it helps your game. Use it.

One last thought. I would love to see one of the CTE believers get hypnotized, get the conscious mind out of the way so you are only shooting with your subconscious mind. Film the results. I guarantee you will play the best. There will be no conflict between your minds. Yes you would be in the Zone.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

a cj wiley follower above.

that is correct the answer is "no" :) and nothing can be done with out these millions of tiny adjustments in milliseconds, good job you guys solved the puzzle. i just used a trillion of those tiny adjustments in milliseconds to type this post and a million more to hit the save button.
 
Last edited:

Bambu

Dave Manasseri
Silver Member
Well I'm more confused than ever, but thanks anyway guys. Its probably me, I couldnt understand the see system either.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...I would love to see one of the CTE believers get hypnotized, get the conscious mind out of the way so you are only shooting with your subconscious mind.
I believe this is exactly what CTE does for its users - in the same way that the elaborately choreographed "preshot routine" practiced by zen archers "hypnotizes" them, specifically so their conscious mind will release control to their subconscious. Our conscious minds are simply not equipped to process and coordinate the myriad instantaneous computations needed at such a high level of precision.

And, of course, the system isn't nearly "granular" enough to be accurate by itself. Without substantial guidance from the subconscious it would miss every shot.

pj
chgo
 

champ2107

Banned
its very amusing as to how far you guys will go, the hate you guys have is mind blowing to me over a simple aiming system. None of you were bright enough to learn, so the jealousy must be raging strong in you guys, this is the only reason i can think of as to your behaviors lol
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
You've got a vendetta against CTE.
Believing CTE works differently than you do is not "having a vendetta against it", Neil. Seeing every version of reality but yours as an attack is just petty, oversensitive and childish.

You want it to fail
If the revelation that CTE isn't a magic aiming potion will make it "fail", then it didn't have much chance of success in the first place.

pj
chgo
 

champ2107

Banned
Pat, you are the one that can't see reality. A lot of the stuff you come up with is childish, not to mention, just plain ignorant of the facts about it. You don't like it, fine. Don't use it. But, to constantly rail against it for years as you have done shows some serious imbalance in your thinking.

bah! i put him on ignore also along with all the other geniuses on this board today. its no longer worth arguing with people who cant do what i can do and watch them tell people how to do something they cant do and not knowing there giving out misleading info! i have half the people in these aiming discussions on ignore now lol
 
Last edited:

JB Cases

www.jbcases.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
I believe this is exactly what CTE does for its users - in the same way that the elaborately choreographed "preshot routine" practiced by zen archers "hypnotizes" them, specifically so their conscious mind will release control to their subconscious. Our conscious minds are simply not equipped to process and coordinate the myriad instantaneous computations needed at such a high level of precision.

And, of course, the system isn't nearly "granular" enough to be accurate by itself. Without substantial guidance from the subconscious it would miss every shot.

pj
chgo

Remind us again what you do for a living?
 
Top