How aiming got its own zone?
- Thread starter Bambu
- Start date
Bambu, there are 2 visual lines in ctepro1. Each line has a specific function.
The cb edge to ob aim point is an AIM LINE. Your task is to aim a cb edge to an ob aim point.
The CTE line is a SIGHT LINE not an AIM LINE.
The cteperception allows the shooter to know the cb edge to an ob aimpoint is correct in establishing a fixed cb.
Let' s you have 6 diamond cb ob separation and a cut to the left. Your ob aimpoint options are A B or 1/8 ball overlap.
Rule out B simply because distance will not permit cb edge to OB B with a center to edge perception.
So, left cb edge to OB A and check your cte perception. Now you have 2 visuals required for any cte shot.
The shot may be on.
The other option is a single line for a1/8 overlap. Any 1/8 ball overlap may require either a left or right pivot. No CTE for this shot.
All shots that have 2 line visuals must be seen with zero head movement and only eye shifts.
**Important:,an OB aimpoint AIM LINE positions the eyes for the proper cte offset. Your nose is NEVER behind a cte line as if you are aiming.
TOO much emphasis is placed on getting directly behind the cte line. Not good!!
Hope this helps.
Stan Shuffett
The cb edge to ob aim point is an AIM LINE. Your task is to aim a cb edge to an ob aim point.
The CTE line is a SIGHT LINE not an AIM LINE.
The cteperception allows the shooter to know the cb edge to an ob aimpoint is correct in establishing a fixed cb.
Let' s you have 6 diamond cb ob separation and a cut to the left. Your ob aimpoint options are A B or 1/8 ball overlap.
Rule out B simply because distance will not permit cb edge to OB B with a center to edge perception.
So, left cb edge to OB A and check your cte perception. Now you have 2 visuals required for any cte shot.
The shot may be on.
The other option is a single line for a1/8 overlap. Any 1/8 ball overlap may require either a left or right pivot. No CTE for this shot.
All shots that have 2 line visuals must be seen with zero head movement and only eye shifts.
**Important:,an OB aimpoint AIM LINE positions the eyes for the proper cte offset. Your nose is NEVER behind a cte line as if you are aiming.
TOO much emphasis is placed on getting directly behind the cte line. Not good!!
Hope this helps.
Stan Shuffett
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good post
It is amusing to me how people say you can not see a contact point on a ball or on the table but it is easy to see fractions of the cue ball. I guarantee it is easy to see the spot on the table, being it is on a flat surface. I also bet if I took a cue ball and showed me where the A, B, C, and D lines are from three diamonds away you would not hit it once in 50 tries. Now take it 4, 5, 6, or even 7 diamonds away. Not a chance. You are estimating, there is no exactness. Let me repeat that. You are estimating. This issue becomes this. In ghost ball you are estimating one spot, therefore one estimation. In CTE your are estimating where the A, B, C, or D lines are and also estimating a pivot. They can't even tell at which angle you will use what line, you will learn from experience.
I would say Snooker Players are the most accurate at "potting" balls, and I don't here them talking about CTE. Could it be, they know where the line is, and are setup square to the shot.
If this was "A Few Good Men" the script would be changed to.
Champ & Neil: You want answers?
Rest of the Pool World: I think I'm entitled to.
Champ & Neil: *You want answers?*
Rest of the Pool World: *I want the truth!*
Champ & Neil: *We can't handle the truth!*
Champ & Neil: Son, we live in a pool world that has systems, and those systems have to be guarded by men like us. Who's gonna do it? You? You, PJ? Champ & Neil have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Ghost Ball, and you curse the CTE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Ghost Ball's death, while tragic, probably made better pool players. And our existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes better pool players. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at pool halls, you want me in this forum, you need me in this forum. We use words like CTE, pivot, Pro 1. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending Hal Houle. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to the rest of the pool world who are non-believers of CTE, and then questions us on why we can't give proof. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pool cue, and shoot some balls. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
Now I am sure someone will be pissed, but that right there is funny.:grin:
It is amusing to me how people say you can not see a contact point on a ball or on the table but it is easy to see fractions of the cue ball. I guarantee it is easy to see the spot on the table, being it is on a flat surface. I also bet if I took a cue ball and showed me where the A, B, C, and D lines are from three diamonds away you would not hit it once in 50 tries. Now take it 4, 5, 6, or even 7 diamonds away. Not a chance. You are estimating, there is no exactness. Let me repeat that. You are estimating. This issue becomes this. In ghost ball you are estimating one spot, therefore one estimation. In CTE your are estimating where the A, B, C, or D lines are and also estimating a pivot. They can't even tell at which angle you will use what line, you will learn from experience.
I would say Snooker Players are the most accurate at "potting" balls, and I don't here them talking about CTE. Could it be, they know where the line is, and are setup square to the shot.
If this was "A Few Good Men" the script would be changed to.
Champ & Neil: You want answers?
Rest of the Pool World: I think I'm entitled to.
Champ & Neil: *You want answers?*
Rest of the Pool World: *I want the truth!*
Champ & Neil: *We can't handle the truth!*
Champ & Neil: Son, we live in a pool world that has systems, and those systems have to be guarded by men like us. Who's gonna do it? You? You, PJ? Champ & Neil have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Ghost Ball, and you curse the CTE. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Ghost Ball's death, while tragic, probably made better pool players. And our existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, makes better pool players. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at pool halls, you want me in this forum, you need me in this forum. We use words like CTE, pivot, Pro 1. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending Hal Houle. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to the rest of the pool world who are non-believers of CTE, and then questions us on why we can't give proof. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pool cue, and shoot some balls. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.
Now I am sure someone will be pissed, but that right there is funny.:grin:
Billionaire??? Odds are, you would have realized that you don't know everything there is to know about pool and would have learned the system yourself. Now, you are too old and think you know everything so you won't even consider anything said. If you didn't learn it in the past, in must be no good. Too bad some people are too stubborn to learn something good.
Now, now, let's show a little sympathy toward our brethren.
Dick may not be on top of his game anymore like he used to be, back in the day.
However, we need to cut him some slack on the billionaire comment.
Decades of imbibing have throttled his ability to estimate costs, expenses and profits of an enterprise but he damn sure still knows where to buy the cheapest bottle of Yukon Jack.
"With math"? LOL. I'd like it described so it can be understood by normal humans.
OK, here's that last paragraph from Neil:
The parts highlighted in blue are what needs to be, and has never been, described. It's how you know where to place your bridge, which is the heart of the system.
"Obtain the visual, Luke!"
pj
chgo
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Here we go again, this information is clearly been explained before. In the system known as CTE/Pro1, the "visuals" would be the CTEL line and CBE to A/B/C/8th. It is not difficult to get this visual very exact.
That's not an explanation.
What does "get this visual very exact" mean? If it's not difficult to "get it very exact", you should be able to "describe it very exact", huh?
pj <- here we go again, indeed
chgo
What must be seen?
Where should your eyes be in relation to these two lines?
- Sighting straight down the CTE line? (You seem to be saying no to this one.)
- Sighting straight down the aimpoint line? (If so, you can do this without the CTE line, so why is the CTE line needed?)
- Somewhere in between? (If so, where? How do you know when you're there?)
pj
chgo
I keep seeing this point come up over and over, and not trying to be argumentative but I don't get it.
Contact point or Ghost Ball DOES require estimation while at the table. Yes, on paper or with a ruler or physical ball it's easy to find the spot. But that rack spot doesn't follow you around - when looking at a shot across the table, you have to estimate an invisible ball whose center lies 1 1/8" away from the object ball on an extended line from the pocket. I realize that's how all the books teach it in a simplified way, because it's easy to diagram, especially when placing a ball there and showing a beginner to "aim for that ball". It's how I learned and most of us as well. On tougher back cut type shots I would even look behind the ball and point to a spot about an inch away to get a better visual for the spot I wanted to roll the cue ball over.
I'm not saying this is bad - after thousands and thousands of shots your eyes and brain do a great job of estimating this point accurately, or the thickness of cut required, and based on feedback of your misses you start to hone in on shots where they "look" right and can do the aiming thing very quickly. You even get very good at automatically compensating for throw, english, speed adjustments, etc. I'm sure that's how a lot of very good players and pros aim and they do just fine. Just like a basketball player makes shots from all over the court with all sorts of body positions, obstacles, etc., it's just done from lots of repetition and eye/hand coordination.
I can't speak for everyone of us using CTE, and I try not to be fanatical about it, but I've found it easier to estimate a more finite line, such as an edge of the cue ball to a spot on the object ball, then looking at an invisible spot in space. I can stand behind the shot and draw that imaginary line down the finite centers or edges of the balls, and even estimate the 1/4 point hit, better than just a spot in space. The fact that this visualization, with the help of two different learned and repeatable physical movements, somehow gets me on the same proper aim line as the ghost ball method is what makes the system work for me and others.
I'm not debating whether there's some geometric principle involved, or it's purely a visual "trick" that somehow just trains your subconscious in a different way - that's another discussion. I'm just saying that it does work as described and it might benefit some people and may even be an easier way to teach shot visualization to beginners vs. the standard method, especially those that can't find that invisible spot consistently.
Scott
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wow
Are you kidding? Guess you own the forum, and only your contributions matter. Life is too short not to have fun. You should look in the mirror. You discredit everything that is said on these forums that go against your idea.
Keep doing what you are doing, and nobody will listen, or want to even try to learn Stan's system
Are you kidding? Guess you own the forum, and only your contributions matter. Life is too short not to have fun. You should look in the mirror. You discredit everything that is said on these forums that go against your idea.
Keep doing what you are doing, and nobody will listen, or want to even try to learn Stan's system
Your goal is to see both the CTE and secondary aim lines. As Stan said, the CTE line is a sight line and the secondary lines are aim lines. You should have both in your vision, and once you are centered with that perception you can move into the shot along that perception or visualization. The two lines are really used to insure that you are seeing the shot correctly, with just one line (as some other systems use) it's possible to shift or tilt a little and not have an accurate initial sighting of the shot. I know it sounds "weird", especially on paper, but it works if you just try it.
I don't even worry about where my stance, bridge hand, eyes, etc. are during the process. Once I have the lines in sight, my eyes will drive the rest of my setup into the proper alignment pre or post pivot in order to make the shot. Just as with ghost ball, where you visually pick up a sight line to the ghost ball and then align your body/bridge to the shot, same with CTE/Pro1. I pick up the correct visual of the shot, based on the CTE and secondary aim lines, then move forward to the cue ball along that path and perform the mechanical pivot or Pro1 style pivot to reach the final aim line for the shot.
From your other post, I can't answer you why you need the pivot - I agree, in theory since you know you are going to pivot you might be able to just include that somehow and land there without the pivot. Pro1 sort of does that for you, since a simple consistent body movement gets you in the right position and is no different than leaning over consistently into the shot. Frankly I try not to think about it too much anymore, I just think of it as another method of getting me to the proper shot aim line and the results speak for themselves, for me at least.
Scott
Answer to PJ's questions.
Stan's answer-For CTE shots, excluding 1/8 adjustments, you see 2 lines, an aim line and a sight line.
PJ's question-Where should your eyes be in relation to these two lines?
PJ- Sighting straight down the CTE line? (You seem to be saying no to this one.) A
Stan-Absolutely do not aim down the CTE line. No, no and no!!
PJ- Sighting straight down the aimpoint line? (If so, you can do this without the CTE line, so why is the CTE line needed?)
Stan-Yes, The cte line is a sight line, not to be used for aiming. You must have the CTE sight line, for example, when looking at OB B as an option you can certainly aim a CB edge to OB B but in ctepro1 it must be coupled with a CTE perception. So distance is a factor. In my previous post, a cb ob separation of 6 diamonds will not yield an aim line to B with a CTE sighting. So, for that example, the shooter must use iether A or 1/8 overlap.
There's more but there's one example for you, PJ.
PJ- Somewhere in between? (If so, where? How do you know when you're there?)
Stan-Nowhere in between as I have been quite clear.
Stan Shuffett
pj
chgo[/QUOTE]
Stan's answer-For CTE shots, excluding 1/8 adjustments, you see 2 lines, an aim line and a sight line.
PJ's question-Where should your eyes be in relation to these two lines?
PJ- Sighting straight down the CTE line? (You seem to be saying no to this one.) A
Stan-Absolutely do not aim down the CTE line. No, no and no!!
PJ- Sighting straight down the aimpoint line? (If so, you can do this without the CTE line, so why is the CTE line needed?)
Stan-Yes, The cte line is a sight line, not to be used for aiming. You must have the CTE sight line, for example, when looking at OB B as an option you can certainly aim a CB edge to OB B but in ctepro1 it must be coupled with a CTE perception. So distance is a factor. In my previous post, a cb ob separation of 6 diamonds will not yield an aim line to B with a CTE sighting. So, for that example, the shooter must use iether A or 1/8 overlap.
There's more but there's one example for you, PJ.
PJ- Somewhere in between? (If so, where? How do you know when you're there?)
Stan-Nowhere in between as I have been quite clear.
Stan Shuffett
pj
chgo[/QUOTE]
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That's perfectly understandable, and probably true for everybody. I think both are "references" that shooters use to orient themselves so they can estimate the actual aim line - and there are tradeoffs for using one over the other.
Although seeing the ghost ball center is probably at least a little more difficult for everybody, once you've found it to the best of your ability you've found the "shot line" - no more aiming steps/estimations required.
On the other hand, while seeing edges and centers is probably at least a little easier for everybody, finding the "shot line" doesn't end with seeing them - there are additional system steps/estimations to perform accurately (CTE's "visuals" and "pivot").
I can easily see how some players are better at one and some at the other - neither seems inherently "best" for anybody.
pj
chgo
Hope I'm not misrepresenting you here, Stan. You're saying when the shooter "has the visual" he should be sighting straight down the aimpoint line, right?
And here you're saying the CTE line is only used to choose the proper aimpoint? Is that right?
Thanks, Stan.
pj
chgo
Yes, the aim point line is an aim line just as was indicated in my DVD. Precision aiming coupled with a CTE perception. It's these 2 lines that fix the cb for a cte shot.
Stan Shuffett
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intelligence and knowledge is also essential to instructional communications. Whereas knowledge denotes the possession of information, intelligence is determined by how that information is manipulated mentally.
selective perception, people see and hear what they think or know, not what is actually there.
This is dead on for certain people in here and in these and all aiming discussions!!
selective perception, people see and hear what they think or know, not what is actually there.
This is dead on for certain people in here and in these and all aiming discussions!!
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