How are your morals?

[Egg McDogit]

I was referring to when the cueball is slowing to a halt and obviously not going to touch any other balls - and you grab it.

I think the call-8 and don't-touch-the-rock rules are good general guidelines to avoid disputes, but common sense calls by a neutral party should be allowed to overrule them - to make sure that deserving winners don't get screwed on some technicality - e.g. Jude not marking his pocket on an obvious shot. Some guy got on me about the same thing and the 8 was hanging in the pocket....at that point you're not even playing pool...you're playing the system.

peace
-egg

What about the following cueball situation.

Nineball. Player A is hooked on the four ball after Player B plays a safety. Player A kicks at the four, misses the ball, and as the cueball is traveling up table in the direction of the the seven and eight which are tied up, player A grabs the cueball.
QUOTE]

 

[Rude Dog]

I play in a tournament at the 1 and only pool hall in my town and it seems that everyone that plays does not know the rules. I'm always telling someone about double hits, illegal jump shots, and no rail after contact. I don't mind it if they don't know but it's the guys that I have to tell over and over that get to me. When they have ball in hand and set the CB right next to the OB and slam it toward the 9, I let them do it, then tell them that it's a foul and explain why. I don't take ball in hand but I warn them that someone may the next time they do it. They don't see the double hit, they think it's just extreme follow, lol. I point out that it's impossible for the CB to travel as fast as the OB, lol. I have pointed out to an opponent that he was shooting at the wrong ball playing 9 ball and he ended up beating me. Oh well, I wouldn't feel right if I watched a guy shooting at the wrong ball, then took ball in hand afterward. Although, it has happened to me several times. I had ball in hand on the 1 and the 2-9 combo was the only option to play position for. I lined up the position for the combo, then proceeded to shoot at the 2-9, forgetting to shoot the 1 first, lol. Funny thing is, I missed the combo, hanging the 9, then he calls a foul and makes the 1-9 combo. Oh well, live and learn, right? Peace, John.

 

[Rickw]

I have a few situation's that I would like to her some thoughts on.
If you are playing in a call pocket format match, and a player has an obvious shot on his final ball, but does not call it. Do you give him the win? Does it matter what situation you are in? Do you have the same answer whether it's the first rack of a tourney, or the hill hill match in the finals?
For those of you who are in APA this one is a little different. I think that everyone playing for any length of time has been faced with this, or heard from someone who has. The situation I speak of is when an opposing team putt's up players that will break the 23 rule. If you notice it before the match starts do you tell the other team, or do you let the match begin and make them forfeit the entire match? Does it make a difference whether or not its a regular session match, playoffs, regionals, or nationals?
The last one is simple, and something that everyone has come across. That is what do you do when your opposing player shoots the wrong couleur group. Do you tell him before he shoots if you notice. Or do wait until he shoots it and call the foul? As with all the rest, does it matter on the situation?
I have read this board for a while. This is the first thread I have posted. A friend of mine and I debated these issues, and I was wondering the opinions of other players. Thank you for your comments.

Mike

My personal bent is, I don't want to win a match unless I deserve to win. I hate the thought of winning just because of a rule technicality. There was another thread where it was mentioned that one player was running out in a 9 ball tournament and had the 9 sitting like a duck in the pocket and his opponent conceded the game rather than wait for him to shoot the duck. The player that was about to shoot went over to the Tournament Director and told him that the other player conceded the game. This is a no-no and the TD took another game away from the player that conceded the game. I understand this is a bonafide rule but as far as I'm concerned, that is a CHICKEN SHIT thing to do! I would not want to win a match like that! JMHO!

 

[FLICKit]

I was referring to when the cueball is slowing to a halt and obviously not going to touch any other balls - and you grab it.

I think the call-8 and don't-touch-the-rock rules are good general guidelines to avoid disputes, but common sense calls by a neutral party should be allowed to overrule them - to make sure that deserving winners don't get screwed on some technicality - e.g. Jude not marking his pocket on an obvious shot. Some guy got on me about the same thing and the 8 was hanging in the pocket....at that point you're not even playing pool...you're playing the system.

peace
-egg

The real issue of note is that when there are a set of rules, play by em. People can be as courteous as they want, but that usually opens the door to potential problems in the future. When someone else doesn't give you that courtesy, do you then essentially demand it? Do you get outraged at them for not playing by your same unwritten rules?

The rules are there for a reason. One of the biggest reasons rules are created is for just that, to avoid potential areas of conflict. If there's a rule that people want different, then get a large enough consensus and have it changed to more accurately reflect how you want the game to be played.

Unfortunately, when you start trying to add in the courtesies into the rule, you're going to find yourself writing some very convoluted rules. Thus, many rules are put into place just to keep it simple and straightforward. The players all have access to the rules, learn em and play by em.

There are a number of pro matches where it's call pocket for the last ball (i.e. 9-ball or 7-ball). The player will not win the game, if they break the rules. The referee makes the rulings only according to the rules. If you want to win the game, then play by the rules.

When you run into issues with players stopping moving cue balls after a foul, most of the time it's OK. The problem is that players start to develop a bad habit of doing it without thought. This later leads to problems because eventually it happens that the cue ball is about to hit something else or potentially scratch (where applicable). As a result, now you have to go to the next level or rules, which is often more complicated and less standardized on how to address that issue. Inevitably, no matter what is written in the rule book, that leaves at least 1 player whining and b*tching about that rule being different than what they believe it should be. As if, just because that player believes something at the time (which usually helps themselves out), then the rulebook should follow their personal belief. Nevermind that the rule has been in the book that way the whole time. Everyone has an opportunity to read the rules in advance, understand em, and use em.

It's a matter of your own personal integrity to be able to follow the rules, and be subject to them. We all have to be responsible for paying attention and enforcing the rules where applicable. If you're not paying attention, it's not the other guys responsibility to inform you or not inform you of what's happened. Understandable that players sometimes want to apply courtesies. Just beware that courtesies are not automatic. They are free to give a courtesy or not, at their own choosing. If someone else doesn't grant you that courtesy, but instead follows the rules, do you maintain your courtesy.... or do you become outraged? Many a bar room brawl or lost friendship has resulted as a matter of a so called courtesy (not being applied).

The whole area of sharking, which is a big area of whining from players, is an issue of (imposing) coutesies. Intentional acts of sharking, are one thing... poor sport and desperation. But many sharking arguments arise over frivolous applications or non-applications of courtesies. And then fights erupt.

Much of this can be eliminated, if people would simply develop the rigor and willpower to adjust and play by the standardized rules (not the rules in their head).


Maybe this isn't a very popular opinion, but it's brutally honest. It's at least a very simple solution that can be very clearly and consistently enforced.

 

[Loun]

I've only played in league matches and then for fun with others so I cant say what I would do in a big tourney or for money but id like to think it would be the same.

I always tell my opponent if I havemade a bad hit or if he has ball in hand. I always try to get their attention if they are lining up on my ball... if they tap the cue by accident during a warmup stroke i agree with letting them continue. We also often call pockets as opposed to requiring them to be marked and most of the time you can tell where someone meant to play a ball, its just getting them to admit it when they get some APA love.

With the above said if someone creates a bad hit, or if I make a good hit and they say I didnt I definitely argue my case. I dont yell at them but I tend to be the one going.. if the Q didnt hit a rail how did it end up there? However because im so honest with the rest of everything my arguements tend to hold up.

 

[Egg McDogit]

Just out of curiosity, what is your speed and do you mostly play league, tournaments, gamble?

peace
-egg

The real issue of note is that when there are a set of rules, play by em. People can be as courteous as they want, but that usually opens the door to potential problems in the future. When someone else doesn't give you that courtesy, do you then essentially demand it? Do you get outraged at them for not playing by your same unwritten rules?

 

[Cue of Fury]

I adhere to the spirit of the game over and above any little rules in a book whenever possible. For example, if my opponent lines up on my set I will make my best effort to notify him before he shoots. Also, if my opponent makes the 8 and does not call/mark it I will award him the win if he made it where I believe he intended to.

 

[bruin70]

I'm just curious which professional tournaments you're refering to where "everything must be called" ?

Sherm

14.1

you don't have to in 9ball or 8ball because slop counts, and you know what ball is next anyway.

 

[Boro Nut]

I adhere to the spirit of the game over and above any little rules in a book whenever possible.

Erm... the spirit of the game is enshrined in the rules. I agree totally with FLIKit 100%. If you are not playing to the rules you are not playing the game. You're playing a different game of your own devising. If you think the rules are stupid (oh they are) then change them. Meanwhile, play to them. They've written them down to make it easy for you. How nice are they.

When we are having a daft knock-about at snooker with your mates, nobody will call the foot off the floor foul and such like. Generally just fouls with the cue. It’s for fun. Nobody’s bothered. But in competition of any level, from lowest to highest, everyone plays the rules. All of them. You’re testing yourself against each other. How can you do that playing to two sets of rules?

Every single foul is called. You may see rare disagreements about the finer interpretation of obscure rules, but not the right to call the foul. To receive the points you are owed in the rules. If they are yours by right under the rules, nobody will begrudge them.

It’s against the rules of snooker to inform a player he is about to make a foul stroke, and rightly so. Nobody complains about this. You only have yourself to blame. No arguments. No hard feelings. Nobody did it to you. How sensible does that sound? Don't break the rules, and you wont have to give points away. Simple. No more questioning morals. No more ethical dilemmas. Just the rules. If you have a stupid rule that says you have to call the 8 in the pocket or forfeit and you don’t call it then you lose. How stupid are you? How many games would you lose before you called the 8? Answer -one. How simple is that? How many weeks would it be before everyone was calling the 8 and not arguing the toss?

If you play a foul in snooker and nobody sees it, you own up. Everybody does. You're all playing to the rules. How simple does that make life? If you don't own up, you are cheating. Nobody would question you were cheating if you walked over to the scoreboard and took points off your opponent. That's exactly what you are doing if you don't own up.

Boro Nut

 

[1pocket]

More often than not, that's an honest mistake. However, gambling is a seperate issue. There's a 'keeping the customer' issue which is always present. In otherwords, keep trying to pull moves with your opponent and he may never play you again. Now, this may work all well and good if he's better than you but if he's the biggest trout in the lake, you'll only have yourself to blame.

You're right; one of the 'unwritten hustler rules' is:
No nit fouls if you've got the nuts.

 

[Williebetmore]

Erm... the spirit of the game is enshrined in the rules.
Boro Nut

BN,
I see what you are saying, and agree with the general gist of it, except: TO WHAT RULES ARE YOU REFERRING ???? One of the very serious problems with our game is lack of consistent rules. It is hard for people to come to love the game when there is no cut and dried set of rules for everyone. There are more versions of the rules for 8-ball and 9-ball than Clinton had girlfriends. The World Standardized rules are close to gibberish (apologies to any of our posters who had a hand in them), and disagreements on interpretation abound. I see nothing wrong with ignoring ambiguous rules and encouraging a spirit of good sportsmanship. The "legal eagles" that are infesting our leagues obviously have a different reason for participating than do the players with a true love of the game. The players with a true love of the game don't want to win on some legal technicality, they just want to find a venue where they can find a fair test, and let the best player (not the best lawyer or shark) win.

Having said all that; in a serious competition (at the national level where it actually means something) the rules should be followed to the letter, but POLITELY.

 

[Big Bad Bern]

I was down a the local poolhall and one of the better players and a very stand up guy was telling a story about a gambling match he was in. They were playing for a couple hundred a game and his opponent was very drunk, four times this player had stopped the drunk from shooting the wrong ball and he was already down ten games to the drunk. On the fifth time the drunk got all upset and screamed at him that he knew how to play the game and quit telling him what to shoot. The player stopped telling the drunk of the impending fouls and proceeded to beat him pretty badly.

Another time a friend of mine was playing in a local 9ball league match and was losing 8 to 7 when he broke and made the nine. He started to send the balls down the table when the cueball stopped, his opponent called a foul because the four ball was still spinning in the mouth of the pocket, all other balls had stopped rolling. the opponent won the match on the call, and my friend was very upset.

Bernie

____________________________________________
Life is short, it's better to win! -- Lance Armstrong

 

[CantEverWin]

My thoughts

When I posted this thread I tried to leave out my own views so not to sway any idea's but I will post my thought's now.
I believe that in competitive play that there is more to pool than the balls on the table. There is a level of focus that goes into the game. A strong benefit to being successful is being able to keep the focus under a variety of circumstances.
In most situations I am correcting my opponent before he make's a mistake as a natural reaction. Since I believe people spend more time playing the game socially or in a friendly environment other than competitively, it is a natural response to correct the nearly evident foul.
However if I make a conscious choice in a competitive situation than I believe you should not tell the soon to be offending player. A player should pay attention. I have been on both ends and feel that same way from either side.

I was on a team that played in regionals and we had a situation that I had brought up earlier. It was nine ball and going into the 5th match the other team had a commanding lead. I believe they needed 4 or 6 points. We knew they only had one option of player to put up do to the 23 rule. They had a 4 and a 5 that had just moved up, they had already played 19 points. They put of the 5 and my team caught it immediately. I argued with my captain to not tell the other team until the match had started. that would force a forfeit of the " Whole match." She finally sided with me and made them forfeit. That was the first match at regionals. That team went on and won the tourney and made nationals. I don't feel that I cheated them at all. Part of the team strategy consist of more than just pool playing. There is more to it. That's why I can see some people not liking league play. Just my thoughts.

By the way the rules state that is a team goes over 23 and has started the final match then it's a team forfeit. You have to show that you can have 23 on your score card. They don't have to be in the building. you can play 4 people and forfeit the 5th as long as you have a ranked player that fit's in the 5th spot that will not invade the 23 rule. If you go over it is a team forfeit. You however can ask the other team to allow you to go over, and if they agree it's allowed. you can also ask a team to allow you to "Play back" a player. All of these rules have to have both team's allowing it. Usually teams only allow this in regular session play. I never see anyone do it in playoffs or regionals.
Complicated language but hopfully that answered some of the question's.

Mike

 

[cuesmith]

When I posted this thread I tried to leave out my own views so not to sway any idea's but I will post my thought's now.
I believe that in competitive play that there is more to pool than the balls on the table. There is a level of focus that goes into the game. A strong benefit to being successful is being able to keep the focus under a variety of circumstances.
In most situations I am correcting my opponent before he make's a mistake as a natural reaction. Since I believe people spend more time playing the game socially or in a friendly environment other than competitively, it is a natural response to correct the nearly evident foul.
However if I make a conscious choice in a competitive situation than I believe you should not tell the soon to be offending player. A player should pay attention. I have been on both ends and feel that same way from either side.

I was on a team that played in regionals and we had a situation that I had brought up earlier. It was nine ball and going into the 5th match the other team had a commanding lead. I believe they needed 4 or 6 points. We knew they only had one option of player to put up do to the 23 rule. They had a 4 and a 5 that had just moved up, they had already played 19 points. They put of the 5 and my team caught it immediately. I argued with my captain to not tell the other team until the match had started. that would force a forfeit of the " Whole match." She finally sided with me and made them forfeit. That was the first match at regionals. That team went on and won the tourney and made nationals. I don't feel that I cheated them at all. Part of the team strategy consist of more than just pool playing. There is more to it. That's why I can see some people not liking league play. Just my thoughts.

By the way the rules state that is a team goes over 23 and has started the final match then it's a team forfeit. You have to show that you can have 23 on your score card. They don't have to be in the building. you can play 4 people and forfeit the 5th as long as you have a ranked player that fit's in the 5th spot that will not invade the 23 rule. If you go over it is a team forfeit. You however can ask the other team to allow you to go over, and if they agree it's allowed. you can also ask a team to allow you to "Play back" a player. All of these rules have to have both team's allowing it. Usually teams only allow this in regular session play. I never see anyone do it in playoffs or regionals.
Complicated language but hopfully that answered some of the question's.

Mike

Your post points out many of the reasons why I'll never play in the APA again! The APA is for sheep, who like to send in their money each week and make a few in St. Louis rich! It's not about pool at all, it's a cross between a Pyramid scam and a game of rules manipulation! You may enjoy it, but not nearly as well as the chosen few in St Louis enjoy spending your money!

just more hot air!

Sherm

 

[jjinfla]

Why have rules if you are not going to follow them?

The opposing team, get it "team", has 4-6 other players to help his teammate out. If they are too stupid, or too lazy to watch, then why should I?

Pros play by the rules.

Semi-pros play by the rules.

Upper level amateurs play by the rules.

Only nits think the rules do not pertain to them.

I always adhere to the rules but give my opponent a pass when the game means nothing. If I fail to mark the pocket in 8-ball in the APA then shame on me. I just lost and I don't complain about being called on it. I want to know where my teammates were when I failed to mark it.

But I gave up on APA 8-ball so I don't have that problem anymore.

Jake

 

[lukeinva]

I was playing on an APA team and I was playing my match. I made 5 balls before the guy told me I was shooting the wrong balls!! He was standing there watching me the whole time and didnt say a god damn word!! I didnt realize he made a ball on the break and then missed his next shot I was not paying attention so I guess you could say it was my fault. But the freakin idiot couldnt say anything after the 1st ball. He said something after the 5th ball which left him one ball to make before the 8ball he took ball in hand and I stood there watched him shoot it get position on the 8 he won that game after that he looked at me like arent you going to rack I just broke down my stick and said you win dick head!!! I couldnt believe some one would do that I would tell the person if I was paying attention like this guy was!! I wanted to kill him!!!

 

[lukeinva]

Playing in the APA Singles Championships, my opponent had safed me behind the eightball for my final shot. I made an incredible kick to pocket the ball AND get position. In my whirlwind of thoughts, I proceeded to pocket the 8-ball without "marking my pocket". My opponent came up and informed me of my error saying, "That was a great shot but I'm sorry, you didn't mark the pocket."

Well, as it turned out, the pocket had already been marked from the previous game and the rule states that I need not mark and already marked pocket so I was allowed to keep the win but all I could think to myself at the moment was 'what an ass. He wasn't sorry in the least. He tried to take a win away from me!'.

The following year, an opponent of mine failed to mark the pocket. I went up to him and said, "I'm not taking your win away but please try to remember to mark the pocket next time. Others won't be so nice." In my opinion, wins and losses should happen on the table. Sideline victories (as I call them) are poor sportsmanship REGARDLESS which league you play in or what the league-rules are. In my opinion, there's a higher standard in competitive pool and if you can't live up to that, you really shouldn't be competing.

The second part where you let the guy go I did the same thing in singles regionals I told him the same exact thing! He was very appreciative I ended up losing to him because of a scratch on the 8 that I did but I am the same way win on the table. I have also broke and run in APA 8ball get down on the 8 the guy is watching me make the 8ball then tells me I didnt mark it. (I didnt mark it) I was about to shove my stick down his throat. I won that match 4-1 I also had 2 more break and runs. After he called that I would mark the pocket and say to him pocket it marked no more winning that way!! he got pretty mad at me but who the F*** cared!!! I sure didnt!!!

 

[lukeinva]

man i got a bunch was playing this one guy and I was breaking I miss cued (trying to kill it) didnt hit anything I grabbed the cue ball was lining up to break again and he took the break I said ok but realized I will be calling every single foul on you. He said fine! well he was shooting a combo on the 9 ball made the nine but damn he moved a ball with his cue normally I would just say good shot and start to rack but not this time I said man that was a good shot but you moved the 6 with your stick and that my friend is a foul! He got mad at me and I said see arent the real rules fun! he wasnt amused but I was laughing inside!! I called everything on him and I watched like a hawk!! One game he fouled 3 times with stuff that I would normally not even care about even in a money game!! I dont call every foul on him now because the next day he said he was sorry for so being petty!!

 

[vapoolplayer]

However if I make a conscious choice in a competitive situation than I believe you should not tell the soon to be offending player. A player should pay attention.

if the player keeps on not paying attention yes, i would have to draw the line somewhere..........but if the guy sets up to shoot the wrong ball, or doesn't realize its ball in hand, i'm not gonna sit there salivating waiting for him to screw up so i can get to the table with ball in hand

thanks

VAP

 

[FLICKit]

The second part where you let the guy go I did the same thing in singles regionals I told him the same exact thing! He was very appreciative I ended up losing to him because of a scratch on the 8 that I did but I am the same way win on the table. I have also broke and run in APA 8ball get down on the 8 the guy is watching me make the 8ball then tells me I didnt mark it. (I didnt mark it) I was about to shove my stick down his throat. I won that match 4-1 I also had 2 more break and runs. After he called that I would mark the pocket and say to him pocket it marked no more winning that way!! he got pretty mad at me but who the F*** cared!!! I sure didnt!!!

Prime examples of 1 guy playing by the rules. Another guy playing by some unwritten rules. When the opponent doesn't get his unwritten courtesies, but instead the rules are followed, the so called courtesy player develops attitude about it. Quite hypocritical to be saying play by courtesy, whilest getting angry about someone playing the game as it is intended, by the rules. Often times this results in a brawl, argument, or at the least one or more players (sometimes just innocent bystanders) becoming disgruntled.

You've likely attached your bitterness to the whole environment in general, even though it had nothing to do with your anger. If you had engaged in the courtesy of following the rules, then the whole issue could have been avoided.

Once players like this develop this bad attituded, they become quite indignant about their situation, and will defend and whine about it most every chance they get. This is not something exclusive to just one person. We've all seen it before.

Afterwards comes the constant barage of insults. And I mean constant. They become focused and enraged about it. And there is nothing that can be said to the contrary to their opinion. What happens to being courteous now.

Note: I'm not casting insults at you or anyone else. Just stating a contrary opinion. Prepared for the flames to be cast in my direction... Oh yeah, and those are the courteous ones......