I've got an APA team of brand new players. They're coming along okay with listening to instruction but I've never figured out how to cure the sidearm stroke. Does anyone have any suggestions? I've got two players who do it. One is rather extreme.
first, the player has to want to get better. Watch barry starks videos on youtube. He goes over fundamentals like stance, grip, stroke etc. You can also have your team mate get down on a shot, and then ask him if you can move his elbow into proper position so he knows how it feels to be properly holding the cue. Line up his arm and then have him take practice strokes. Fyi im not an instructor. Just sharing my thoughts.I've got an APA team of brand new players. They're coming along okay with listening to instruction but I've never figured out how to cure the sidearm stroke. Does anyone have any suggestions? I've got two players who do it. One is rather extreme.
Well said, Matt. Just showing him the picture was confusing. Instead of tensing up at a sidearm, he would tense up in the correct position for a couple shots and then return. I need to get him feeling the dangle. Thanks.Like many things that hold players back, if you cure the disease the symptom (sidearm) can disappear.
Tell the players to clasp the cue lightly and let it and the arm hang with gravity, rather then tensing and muscling the stroke, which destroys cue ball action and power--it seems strange to them without trying it a few times, but an light clasp and smooth action makes the shots work better and the cue ball roll further.
They will tend to remove the chicken wing without addressing that directly.
What if he's right-eye dominant? Do you still want him to rotate his rib cage to the right?With that stance there's not a lot of other ways the player will put both his head and hand on the shot line, you can try it yourself. We have three anchor points and we would like to build a tripod, this player has all anchors on the same line. You can bump him on the hip to get him to feel how unbalanced he is, then probably he will put his left foot more to the left while keeping the right foot somewhere close to the shot line. Then he can rotate his ribcage to the right and get his whole arm rotated counter clockwise to make the arm hang straight down.
If you tell him that he should be able to take a small bump from both sides (and give him one when he stands like this) he will probably sort out that stance pretty fast.
I don't see how eye-dominance will affect on that. Theres not many centimeters between our eyes so left or right wont do much difference in regards to setup. If your visual center happens to be outside of your eyes, like for example Albin Ouschan, maybe theres some change but as I said not much. The rotation is there to put his right shoulder higher so he don't have to use so much external rotation and shoulder extension to get his arm pointing more straight down.What if he's right-eye dominant? Do you still want him to rotate his rib cage to the right?
I really don't know what that sentence I highlighted means. As for the rest, please don't say you're a teacher. I'd hate to think what you may be doing to players.I don't see how eye-dominance will affect on that. Theres not many centimeters between our eyes so left or right wont do much difference in regards to setup. If your visual center happens to be outside of your eyes, like for example Albin Ouschan, maybe theres some change but as I said not much. The rotation is there to put his right shoulder higher so he don't have to use so much external rotation and shoulder extension to get his arm pointing more straight down.
Out of interest, is this something you've done a lot of (coaching league team players)? I'd be interested in your approach and the kinds of results you get.I've got an APA team of brand new players. They're coming along okay with listening to instruction but I've never figured out how to cure the sidearm stroke. Does anyone have any suggestions? I've got two players who do it. One is rather extreme.
What in my post are you alluding to when you say this? Does basic knowledge about anatomy make me a bad teacher? Using terms like straddle, place and lean isn't very accurate, at least in my opinion.As for the rest, please don't say you're a teacher. I'd hate to think what you may be doing to players.
I don't care if you studied anatomy in the most prestigious medical school in the world. Just don't teach pool because you don't know enough and you can hurt players.What in my post are you alluding to when you say this? Does basic knowledge about anatomy make me a bad teacher? Using terms like straddle, place and lean isn't very accurate, at least in my opinion.
Think she's referring to the non-bolded part, bud. Just a few centimeters can make a massive difference and not getting that bit to gel with the rest of the setup just right can lead to a slew of other problems. John Morra is a great example of a guy that contorted himself to get his vision center over the cue just right. Unfortunately, since he didn't compromise locking down any other part of his stance, he developed neck strain and had the awful choice of switch hands or switch careers. Most amateurs will run away from discomfort and def not strain themselves to make sure everything is just right and what results is them getting their eyes in the right spot at the expense of pulling something else out of alignment. One misaligned piece leads to a compensation, which leads to another, making for a mess of a setup just because of what seems like a negligible difference of moving the vantage point a few centimeters. So ye, it can make quite a huge difference indeed and would not be neglected by any experienced instructor.What in my post are you alluding to when you say this? Does basic knowledge about anatomy make me a bad teacher? Using terms like straddle, place and lean isn't very accurate, at least in my opinion.
A little harsh, Fran. LOL. Pegas is actually an excellent player with a Fargo in the 700s so he def knows pool. Apparently will need some sanding of rough edges in the instruction department but that will come. No need to use the grittiest sandpaper you could find to sand off those edges lol.I don't care if you studied anatomy in the most prestigious medical school in the world. Just don't teach pool because you don't know enough and you can hurt players.
You have to remember that people are reading these posts, looking for help from instructors with their games. This is the Ask The Instructor Forum. Teachers have a responsibility to research information so that they don't hurt other players. What's his name? Is it pagaspoling? Is he stepping up and standing behind his name with his posts? Does that phrase of his that I highlighted make any sense to you at all?Think she's referring to the non-bolded part, bud. Just a few centimeters can make a massive difference and not getting that bit just right can lead to a slew of other problems. John Morra is a great example of a guy that contorted himself to get his vision center over the cue just right. Unfortunately, since he didn't compromise locking down any other part of his stance, he developed neck strain and had the awful choice of switch hands or switch careers. Most amateurs will run away from discomfort and def not strain themselves to make sure everything is just right and what results is them getting their eyes in the right spot at the expense of pulling something else out of alignment.
A little harsh, Fran. LOL. Pegas is actually a really good player with a Fargo in the 700s so he def knows pool. Apparently will need some sanding of rough edges in the instruction department but that will come. No need to use the grittiest sandpaper you could find lol.
With my background in biomechanics, motor learning and motor control, yes lol. But I get it, even if our concepts of strokes are rooted in detailed models with precise anatomical language, that is just not how you speak to laymen. We certainly don't want students to have to use google translate to understand what we are trying to say.You have to remember that people are reading these posts, looking for help from instructors with their games. This is the Ask The Instructor Forum. Teachers have a responsibility to research information so that they don't hurt other players. What's his name? Is it pagaspoling? Is he stepping up and standing behind his name with his posts? Does that phrase of his that I highlighted make any sense to you at all?
I don't care if you studied anatomy in the most prestigious medical school in the world. Just don't teach pool because you don't know enough and you can hurt players.
You have to remember that people are reading these posts, looking for help from instructors with their games. This is the Ask The Instructor Forum. Teachers have a responsibility to research information so that they don't hurt other players. What's his name? Is it pagaspoling? Is he stepping up and standing behind his name with his posts? Does that phrase of his that I highlighted make any sense to you at all?
Well, when it comes to that sentence I highlighted, I could read it a hundred times and still not know what the heck he's talking about. As for the other stuff, yes, there are problems with what he said. I'm all for somebody giving it a try to help other players and being a little humble about their lack of knowledge. But if you're going to act like an expert, then you'd better be able to take the heat.With my background in biomechanics, motor learning and motor control, yes lol. But I get it, even if our concepts of strokes are rooted in detailed models with precise anatomical language, that is just not how you speak to laymen. We certainly don't want students to have to use google translate to understand what we are trying to say.
BTW, his statement is just referring to a rotation that would have the thumb pointed away from the body in a dead hang, and a lifting of the arm straight out behind you. When you let the forearm hang from that position the palm will face forward. Turning the hand back from there to make for the common pronated grip. This manouver does put the arm in a stable position that will not really allow for a sidearm or chicken wing and have the hand hang straight down. So his anotomical bit wasn't wrong imo. It was just not the phrasing to use in a forum like this one. The non-bolded part imo was incorrect tho and I thought that was the issue you were having with it too when you said, 'As for the rest...".
Nobody starts out a master level instructor as I'm sure you can attest to first hand. This can go down as a learning experience on his teaching journey. As a player though, he is as solid as they come so there is much promise for him moving forward. I'd encourage him to keep at it and keep improving, def not quit.
EDIT: nevermind. I just reread it and misremembered the line. What I described above is the rotation and elevation he is trying to get the guy to limit or use less of and the way he aims to achieve that is to rotate the trunk as a different way to achieve a similar position.
Either way, this is not just poorly worded for the forum we are in, it is getting ahead of ourselves a bit by recommending such a specific fix for a problem we didn't actually see so can't know why it is there. In a vacuum though, his suggestion COULD work if he guessed right as to the source of the problem.
Dunno how I missed the pic.I've got an APA team of brand new players. They're coming along okay with listening to instruction but I've never figured out how to cure the sidearm stroke. Does anyone have any suggestions? I've got two players who do it. One is rather extreme.
Since Fran's sandpaper grit is set to kill, maybe I'll field this one...I would like to know what you are referring to when you say this. If you feel like there is anything wrong with what I wrote you should point it out so the readers can see it and I can explain what i meant. When you claim I can hurt players thats a very bold statement and I would like to know why you think that.
The rotation is there to put his right shoulder higher so he don't have to use so much external rotation and shoulder extension to get his arm pointing more straight down.
There is two ways this player can get his arm in a more textbook position. One is rotating hos whole ribcage, since the shoulder attaches to the ribcage at the scapula his arm would follow get more upright. If his ribcage stays in the position he would have to move his arm to get there by itself. In that case he would have to externaly rotate and extend the shoulder to get there. Now when I watch the photo again I see that he would have to adduct the shoulder as well. For me the solution on the left picture is the better one as it allows the arm to swing on a more comfortable plane because you don't have to use so much shoulder motion to get into the adress position.