How Do You Play This Table? With Spot

I like Blackjack's the best. So what the guy is getting the 6 the only way to improve is by learning and getting better. Better to learn the right way which his way is IMO. I would at least attempt that shot.

Even in Blackjacks suggested shot if the 1 doesnt make it all the way to the rail but still gets hooked it could leave a 1-6 combo threat :D
 
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renard said:
Stop everything this is the shot! Your opponents giving you the 6? Hell yeah I'd make the 7 and 8 a cluster,. End of discussion.
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Alright, he gives you the shot back. Now what?
 
The problem with Blackjack's shot is there is a spot involved and you're not taking advantage of it. The safety he suggests is extremely high risk. Nail it and you will undoubtedly win. Blow it and you will undoubtedly lose.

By moving the 7 onto the 8, you have essentially broken the game up into two segments. You've pretty much guaranteed that the game will not be decided on the 1-ball. At least, you can't LOSE by messing up on the 1-ball. However, if he blows the safe on the 1 OR if he passes it back to you and you nail a safe on the 1, you can win since everything is routine up to the 7-ball.

Keep in mind, the safety Blackjack illustrates is a textbook play when nearby. The distance and angle make this shot EXTREMELY difficult but against better opponents, playing even-up, you may need to take that risk. In a handicapped game, you have to look to take advantage and the correct play is to take away the nine ball run out while leaving yourself open shots to your handicap.
 
Blackjack said:
lol... you still have to play safe.
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But now, if you botch your safe, he has the tied up 7&8 to contend with. The odds are in favor of the player getting the 6 to win this game from here.

Even if the better player plays a safety, to me it looks like his only chance to get out is to break up the 7&8 from the 3 to the 4. If he hits the 7&8 to full then position on the 5 gets tough.

I still say tieing up the 7&8 was a very intelligent move.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
The problem with Blackjack's shot is there is a spot involved and you're not taking advantage of it. The safety he suggests is extremely high risk. Nail it and you will undoubtedly win. Blow it and you will undoubtedly lose.

By moving the 7 onto the 8, you have essentially broken the game up into two segments. You've pretty much guaranteed that the game will not be decided on the 1-ball. At least, you can't LOSE by messing up on the 1-ball. However, if he blows the safe on the 1 OR if he passes it back to you and you nail a safe on the 1, you can win since everything is routine up to the 7-ball.

Keep in mind, the safety Blackjack illustrates is a textbook play when nearby. The distance and angle make this shot EXTREMELY difficult but against better opponents, playing even-up, you may need to take that risk. In a handicapped game, you have to look to take advantage and the correct play is to take away the nine ball run out while leaving yourself open shots to your handicap.
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I'm sure this game could be decided on the 1-ball.

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Jude Rosenstock said:
The problem with Blackjack's shot is there is a spot involved and you're not taking advantage of it. The safety he suggests is extremely high risk. Nail it and you will undoubtedly win. Blow it and you will undoubtedly lose.

By moving the 7 onto the 8, you have essentially broken the game up into two segments. You've pretty much guaranteed that the game will not be decided on the 1-ball. At least, you can't LOSE by messing up on the 1-ball. However, if he blows the safe on the 1 OR if he passes it back to you and you nail a safe on the 1, you can win since everything is routine up to the 7-ball.

Keep in mind, the safety Blackjack illustrates is a textbook play when nearby. The distance and angle make this shot EXTREMELY difficult but against better opponents, playing even-up, you may need to take that risk. In a handicapped game, you have to look to take advantage and the correct play is to take away the nine ball run out while leaving yourself open shots to your handicap.
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Jude,

While I understand everything that you are saying, I still don't see where tying up the 7-8 will do you any favors. If you're playing me, I just pass it back to you, or I'll jam you up.

The safety I illustrated is not very difficult if you can control the cue ball speed. A version of this same shot is in my book, Lessons In 9 Ball, in a section dedicated to safety play.

I don't think being spotted anything really has any effect on this situation. If I get on the 2 ball, I can break that 7 and 8 up very easily. So much for tying them up.

In my shot, admittedly I just looked at it for about a millisecond and made a decision on the shot I illustrated, but I looked at what the shot did or didn't do.

#1 - I can hide the cue ball behind 3 balls. If I get close enough to the 3 ball, I take the jump out of the equation.

#2 - If I hit it too soft, he's still banging the 1 ball into the rail, or playing safe back on me.

The one does not need to go as far as I diagrammed it to make this a nightmare for the opponent.

The last thing I would do is tie something up here, because all the guy has to do is pass the shot back to me. Then what do I do? Seems redundant to me to do that, getting the 6 or not.
 
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Blackjack said:
Jude,

While I understand everything that you are saying, I still don't see where tying up the 7-8 will do you any favors. If you're playing me, I just pass it back to you, or I'll jam you up.

The safety I illustrated is not very difficult if you can control the cue ball speed. A version of this same shot is in my book, Lessons In 9 Ball, in a section dedicated to safety play.

I don't think being spotted anything really has any effect on this situation. If I get on the 2 ball, I can break that 7 and 8 up very easily. So much for tying them up.

In my shot, admittedly I just looked at it for about a millisecond and made a decision on the shot I illustrated, but I looked at what the shot did or didn't do.

#1 - I can hide the cue ball behind 3 balls. If I get close enough to the 3 ball, I take the jump out of the equation.

#2 - If I hit it too soft, he's still banging the 1 ball into the rail, or playing safe back on me.

The one does not need to go as far as I diagrammed it to make this a nightmare for the opponent.

The last thing I would do is tie something up here, because all the guy has to do is pass the shot back to me. Then what do I do? Seems redundant to me to do that, getting the 6 or not.
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I agree completely.
 
Scottster said:
But now, if you botch your safe, he has the tied up 7&8 to contend with. The odds are in favor of the player getting the 6 to win this game from here.

Even if the better player plays a safety, to me it looks like his only chance to get out is to break up the 7&8 from the 3 to the 4. If he hits the 7&8 to full then position on the 5 gets tough.

I still say tieing up the 7&8 was a very intelligent move.
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Scott,

I don't botch safes. Ask anybody.

:p
 
Drew said:
I'm sure this game could be decided on the 1-ball.

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Yeah, good luck with that. This break-out has problems written all over it. Yes, hit it like you diagram and all is good but you can scratch here, too. That's the opposite side of the spectrum of possibilities and there are a lot of negative outcomes inbetween. The fact is, in order to get an effective break-out, you'll need to hit it with some punch. You can't just tap them and expect everything to open up. Punch follow is not that easy to predict.

You're also playing a diagram that's meant to be a response-shot. That is to say, you cannot look at this cluster as precise. They may not be frozen or they may fall entirely differently.
 
The table layout before tieing up the 7&8 is a simple run out for a player good enough to spot someone the 6 (at least it better be for that player if he is spotting me the 6). Tieing up those balls creates a problem he has to deal with that I dont.

David, if you break up the 7&8 with the 2 ball what are your plans with the three? Play safe?
 
Blackjack said:
Scott,

I don't botch safes. Ask anybody.

:p
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And you're not the player getting the 6 either... If you're spotting me the 6 and I botch the safe you still have to deal with the cluster.
 
I think tying up the 7 and 8 is a good shot considering the spot, but it does come with it's own set of difficulties.

First, it's not extremely easy to get the 7 ball to land just right against the 8, and if you hit it a little bit bad or get a funny roll you could easily leave some sort of shot... the odds are no doubt in your favor, but sh*t does occasionally happen.

Second, this shot will probably be passed back to you, and you will be in a spot that is even more difficult that the one you pushed on. Frozen to the rail like that, cutting at the 1 will be just about as easy as any hook you could attempt, but firing at the 1 comes with the risk of missing the ball and breaking out the cluster you just created. There are a couple of not-too-difficult safeties you could play, but they will probably result in leaving a difficult shot rather than a hook, and if your opp. can give you the 6, then he should be considered a threat to make difficult shots.

Third, if your opponent does end up pocketing the 1 ball, he will have two very good opportunities to break out the 7-8 cluster; once on the 3-ball and again on the 5 ball since the 6 doesn't require shape.

Again, I think it's a good shot considering the spot, but I would probably go with some sort of leave on the first shot since tying those two balls up doesn't seem to me to be buying you a whole lot, and I think it comes with a slightly bigger risk of giving your opponent the first offensive opportunity.

As always JMHO,

Aaron
 
Scottster said:
The table layout before tieing up the 7&8 is a simple run out for a player good enough to spot someone the 6 (at least it better be for that player if he is spotting me the 6). Tieing up those balls creates a problem he has to deal with that I dont.

David, if you break up the 7&8 with the 2 ball what are your plans with the three? Play safe?
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Easy Cross side, draw for the 4.

However, I'm looking at this from the perspective of the guy that is getting the 6.

I make the safety that I illustrated early on in this thread... where do you go from there?

Kick.
Jump.
Stab.
Wish.
Hope.
Visions of failure.
lol

I'd still play it that way.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Yeah, good luck with that. This break-out has problems written all over it.
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If I were playing the 3 from there, I would definitely go for the breakout on the 7/8, but I would play the cueball to hit just beyond the center diamond on the foot rail with a touch of running spin. That way you mitigate the risk of scratching, and you decrease the likelihood of ending up straight-in on the 4, which would kind of suck. Something like this:

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Good rolls,

Aaron
 
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Klockdoc while you are creating distance with the CB to the 1 Ball, sending the one ball towards the cluster you created with the push out isn't really a good idea.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Yeah, good luck with that. This break-out has problems written all over it. Yes, hit it like you diagram and all is good but you can scratch here, too. That's the opposite side of the spectrum of possibilities and there are a lot of negative outcomes inbetween. The fact is, in order to get an effective break-out, you'll need to hit it with some punch. You can't just tap them and expect everything to open up. Punch follow is not that easy to predict.

You're also playing a diagram that's meant to be a response-shot. That is to say, you cannot look at this cluster as precise. They may not be frozen or they may fall entirely differently.
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I should have drawn the shot better, I would almost certainly come rail first with the breakout. I know that I can execute the rail first breakout with very good results consistently (assuming I've gotten on the 3 fairly well). If I can do it, my opponent certainly can (he's giving me the 6 remember).
 
Scottster said:
Klockdoc while you are creating distance with the CB to the 1 Ball, sending the one ball towards the cluster you created with the push out isn't really a good idea.
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Scott, I understand what you are saying, but, I am the 6 and you passed it back to me. Still I am no worse off than the previous shot and now you have to shoot.

Coming off the left side still leaves your cluster in trouble. With the 1 being originally that close to the rail, I have a good shot at leaving the cue ball close to the head rail with my kick using top english and taking away the probability of you spinning behind the 3/5. Coming off the right side breaks up your cluster, but, leaves the 1 in a situation for a good return safe with all the balls around.

After I originally tie up the 7/8, I will just have to take it on a "come" basis.
 
Drew said:
I should have drawn the shot better, I would almost certainly come rail first with the breakout. I know that I can execute the rail first breakout with very good results consistently (assuming I've gotten on the 3 fairly well). If I can do it, my opponent certainly can (he's giving me the 6 remember).
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It's still a tough shot no matter how you cut it. With BIH, it's tough but manageable. Without BIH, an inch can make a huge difference.
 
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