How do you setup for any given shot?

elvicash

elvicash

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am working on improving my game, as most of us are on this forum, and I thought it would help if we would write out are pre shot routines we each use when setting up the shot.

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First of all I play the best when I have the shot planned and ready in my mind.
I look from the pocket back to the OB to sight the shot.
I visualize the shot.
In a smooth motion I place my back foot under my stroking hand.
I focus on getting my elbow above my wrist above my shooting hand above my foot. I want my forearm vertical at contact and my cue tip very close to the CB.
I stretch my bridge arm out and straight lightly extended without being fully locked light weight on the felt.
I get my head over the cue so I can look down the cue to the CB to the OB.
When I get down I check if the setup is good before I start practice stroking and make adjustments as needed.
I can make some practice waggles of the cue now to check the feel.
I stop at CB address.
If this is all good I put more weight on my bridge hand locking out my bridge arm slightly (still working on this).
I focus on the CB and pay attention to the cue tip location.
I focus on the OB.
I look back to the CB and while looking at it I take to smooth practice swings and pay attention to the back of the stroke location as well as the CB address.
While looking back and forth I try to move only my eyes and keep my head still.
I stop the cue at CB address and refocus my attention on the OB looking at the target point on the OB. This point is on the equator of the OB and the better I focus on this point of the final stroke the better I pocket balls.
In the build up this point I have focused on the setup so my stroke is strictly a radius motion of my forearm hanging off of my suspended elbow.
When I began my stroke backward I try not to rush it whether it is a soft slow shot or a higher velocity shot.
At the back of the stroke I pause for a fairly short amount of time, I am thinking maybe a tenth of a second.
I come forward and through the CB straight towards my target spot on the OB.
I complete my stoke with the tip on the felt.
I watch the OB go in the hole with eyes.
I keep my head still through the entire final stroke.

During the whole setup and execution I try to prepare myself/body so I have no tension or tendancy to move up or down or do any sort of rotation with torso or shoulders.
 
Wow, how long does it take you to shoot?
It's great that you know, and can articulate everything about your shot, but all of the mechanics should be automatic. You should really just be thinking about your aim, and stroke speed for cue ball position.

I generally aim the shot as if using dead center cue ball. I imagine the cue ball track line after pocketing the ball....and if it won't go where I need it to, then I adjust my aim with natural english (center: top to bottom). If that still doesn't get the cue ball where I need it, then I adjust my aim using side english. When adding english, you have to adjust your aim because the OB will have a different track line. Freddy Bentivegna does a pretty good job of explaining the ball interaction during collisions. Most other publications will just say make an adjustment. Freddy actually explains the adjustment.

Working on your mechanics should be reserved for Practice.
 
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Do you consciously think of all the crap before every shot? Or did you just think about what you do and then write it down, id go nuts if i had to think about everything i did before every shot like on an itemized list.
 
First of all Okinawa and Runoutalloveru, Either of you can have some action, I am in Indy but I do travel some and could potentially get your way, Eaither of can PM me if you want to mach up.

Next, why do you have start flaming out of the gate. If you do not have anything postivive to add just move on. If you need to flame me then flame on. What I am trying to do is to get people to talk about their setups so the rest of us can get better.

This idea of breaking each action down too bare fundamentals is done for every sport played professionally. Listen to a golf tournament they talk about setup the whole show, The same for bowling and frequently for a quarterback in football. They talk about footwork and body posityion in everything. It is something trained or natural and not executed like a list when in the game.

I think we need to work together to build ourselves up. I think pool players could all be a lot better and we can do that if we share information and methods. Just my thoughts.

But to answer the first two replies, No I do not try to do the complete list each shot by going down the list when I play. When I am in action it just flows together when I am playing good. When I am playing bad none of it works.

When I work on training myself is when I do go down the list usually focusing on one item. I try to put together a routine and pay attention to a couple of key steps or points. By having worked on the various items on the list when training my self and usually one key item at a time I have something to fall back on when I do find myself struggling.

I took a lesson a while back off of Scott Lee. He said there is training, practicing and playing. All three of the are for different reasons and have different tempos and different states of mind.

I know many of the top tier players have all worked on single items one at a time similiar to the items on my list. So if anyone has something they have worked on to build themselves up please lets hear it.

What I was hoping is that we can actually talk a little about how we execute rather than trying to talk only about action (usally talking about someone else in action rather than the poster) or bashing each other.
 
Never really thought about the routine. I do know I have to put my beer down first, after someone wakes me up and lets me know it is my turn.
 
My routine is similar to yours but I have a couple of additions after your third statement.

I attempt to determine the smallest possible target on the OB and a line through that target to the pocket while standing up. I call it a nine inch nail that extends through the OB to the pocket.

I line up my shoulder with the cue stick through the CB to the target. This helps with less need for body movement later when I am down on the shot and helps with feeling comfortable that my swing arm will be on line. I tend to walk into the shot from about three feet behind the shot.

As I bend down I watch (actually stare at) the target and wrap my body around the cue. (I prefer a snooker type stance for a straight swing arm).

I think the quiet eye technique is an improvement when sighting and see no need to rapidly change focus when aiming. So when I am in position I intentionally and slowly draw a line from the target to the cue ball and through it to the cue tip. Now I know where to hit the CB and I know the exact line and target for the OB.

My focus has slowly shifted to stroking and eye alignment on the cue stick. As I swing the stick I pause at the CB and at the end of the back swing to insure that every thing is in line. My butt may be shifted left or right as needed to get on the exact line.

When I am satisfied with the swing, I check the aim by stopping the cue tip at the CB before the final two or three warm up swings to make sure everything is in line and the power is appropriate.

I tend to prefer a longer pause at the end of the back swing. Similar to a bow and arrow shot as I sight down the cue like a rifle with one eye. At this point I am looking down a rifle barrel through the center of the CB and am aware of the front center of the CB and where it will meet the OB.

When I finally let the shot go I want to see the CB roll and watch the OB go down that nine inch nail line. Then I watch the CB to learn about what I have done with this type of spin.

Takes longer to write than it does to execute -- but it does take lots of practice to make the style automatic.
 
As my name suggests, I am still a novice. Although some people would try to keep the pre-shot routine as simple as possible, I feel like writing more steps out. I'm not suggesting you to go through the checklist before every shot. In fact, that's NOT what you want to do. The ultimate goal should be to be able to do as many of those as subconcisouly and natural as possible, and be able to see the angle of a shot and stroke straight with muscle memory like its automatic.

So here is my newbie guide for setting up a shot.


1. Planning

Decide which object ball to be pocketed (if at all) and the next ball after that. What is the zone for the next ball? Which side of that next ball you want to fall into in order shoot the next next ball? How to move the cue ball there into the zone i.e. speed and spin? Sometimes it doesn't harm to shoot harder but it hurts if you fall short, or vice versa. So think about all those until you are sure.

2. Aiming

Line up yourself with the object ball and its intended pocket. Visualize that object ball path (e.g. you might want to cheat the pocket). Find the contact point on the object ball or the ghost ball, etc, whatever method you use.

Walk back to behind the cue ball. First, assume you are shooting a simple center ball, visualize the cue ball path towards the ghost ball or object ball contact point. Now you need to do the adjustment.

First, if it is a cut shot, you need to adjust for the throw effect created by the friction between the cue ball and the object ball. To be specific, you need to cut less i.e. aim fuller than what the ghost ball suggests. This is the basis for further adjustment.

Second, if you apply spin, you need to adjust accordingly from that basis because of deflection and curving of the cue ball and additional throw effect on the object ball.

At this time, you should know exactly where to aim, and the speed and spin to use.

3. Alignment

Visualize the cue ball path, line up yourself with it. Fall onto that line. I put my cue under my chin when I stroke, so I use my nose i.e. vertical center of my face as a guide as I lie down to line up. e.g. If you have a dominant eye and you place your shaft under it, you might want to use that eye as a reference. Meanwhile, place your bridge hand on the table and let your cue shaft fall onto that line too.

Adjust your stance to be comfortable with the above line up. You should wrap your body around the cue instead of the other way round. Your cue placement determines where you stands and how your stance looks like. You don't want to assume a fixed stance, and then try to align your cue.

Now you have assumed your stance and pose. But it might not be perfectly correct. Do some minor adjustment to your stance, bridge hand, etc. You might want to stroke a few times to loosen things up and make sure you're comfortable.


4. Warm-up strokes. Eye movement

Look at the cue ball. Stop your cue tip very close to the cue ball. Pause. Look back and forth between the cue ball and object ball. Make fine adjustment to make sure your aim and alignment are correct.

Look at the cue ball again. Take a few warm-up strokes slowly. Make sure the cue tip goes to the intended contact point on the cue ball. Stop your cue tip very close to the cue ball, pause. Look back and forth between the cue ball and object ball and check that you are still aligned.

5. Final delivery

At this time, you should be aligned, know where you want to hit the cue ball, and have to cue tip pointing towards it. You don't want to second guess. You trust it. If you are unsure, stand up and do the whole thing again.

Look at the cue ball for one last time. Take 2 or 3 warm-up strokes slowly, synchronize it with your rhythm e.g. you might say "1, 2, 3, stroke" in your mind. Also, gauge or at least think about the speed of your final stroke.

During your final stroke, slowly pull your cue back, make sure you pull straight back. You might want to pause a bit at the end of your back stroke. Now switch your focus to look at the object ball. Then let your forearm come forward and deliver the cue out straight and follow through. Maintain that same loose grip through the whole process and let the cue do the work.


As you (and hopefully I) become better, all the planning can be done in your head in a few seconds. You would fall onto that line and place your bridge hand down without much adjustment. You would have adjust for deflection and stuff before you lie down. And all those back and forth eye movements and stroking become automatic. You don't even have to think about it. You shoot, the ball goes.

I hope I didn't make easy things complicated and confused you. Haha.
 
elvicash said:
I took a lesson a while back off of Scott Lee. He said there is training, practicing and playing. All three of the are for different reasons and have different tempos and different states of mind.
QUOTE]

elvicash,

:confused: I think there is some miscommunication. I meant no disrespect.

As you mentioned, Scott Lee told you there is training, practicing, and playing........

You stated, "First of all I play the best when I have the shot planned and ready in my mind".

Had you said you practice or train.....then, I would have understood that when you said play that your mechanics are automatic.

When I think of practice, I think of drills or warm up games with the goal of verifying all of your skills are working correctly.

When I think of training, I think of the learning process of new skills, aiming, and stroke mechanics.

I am not trying to nit pick at your words. It's just that when I read/hear someone say "play", I automatically think the meaning is "compete".

I apologize for my misinterpretation of your words.

P.S. Maybe you missed my compliment on your ability to articulate everything about your shot. I wasn't being sarcastic. There are a lot of people that cannot explain their actions in words. That is why a lot of "do'ers" cannot be teachers.
Click to expand...
 
What a perfect description of a great setup & delivery process

What an excellent pre-shot routine! Textbook...especially the eye pattern! ;) :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

elvicash said:
I am working on improving my game, as most of us are on this forum, and I thought it would help if we would write out are pre shot routines we each use when setting up the shot.

-------------------------------------------------------
First of all I play the best when I have the shot planned and ready in my mind.
I look from the pocket back to the OB to sight the shot.
I visualize the shot.
In a smooth motion I place my back foot under my stroking hand.
I focus on getting my elbow above my wrist above my shooting hand above my foot. I want my forearm vertical at contact and my cue tip very close to the CB.
I stretch my bridge arm out and straight lightly extended without being fully locked light weight on the felt.
I get my head over the cue so I can look down the cue to the CB to the OB.
When I get down I check if the setup is good before I start practice stroking and make adjustments as needed.
I can make some practice waggles of the cue now to check the feel.
I stop at CB address.
If this is all good I put more weight on my bridge hand locking out my bridge arm slightly (still working on this).
I focus on the CB and pay attention to the cue tip location.
I focus on the OB.
I look back to the CB and while looking at it I take to smooth practice swings and pay attention to the back of the stroke location as well as the CB address.
While looking back and forth I try to move only my eyes and keep my head still.
I stop the cue at CB address and refocus my attention on the OB looking at the target point on the OB. This point is on the equator of the OB and the better I focus on this point of the final stroke the better I pocket balls.
In the build up this point I have focused on the setup so my stroke is strictly a radius motion of my forearm hanging off of my suspended elbow.
When I began my stroke backward I try not to rush it whether it is a soft slow shot or a higher velocity shot.
At the back of the stroke I pause for a fairly short amount of time, I am thinking maybe a tenth of a second.
I come forward and through the CB straight towards my target spot on the OB.
I complete my stoke with the tip on the felt.
I watch the OB go in the hole with eyes.
I keep my head still through the entire final stroke.

During the whole setup and execution I try to prepare myself/body so I have no tension or tendancy to move up or down or do any sort of rotation with torso or shoulders.
Click to expand...
 
okinawa77...The entire process described by elvicash takes, on an average, between 30 & 45 seconds...not long at all, when you think about the normal time it takes someone to process and shoot. Once we are mentally and physically established on the shot, we only have about 8-10 seconds to get the shot off, before your brain starts 'second-guessing' you ("cut it thinner", "shoot harder", "add english", "DON'T MISS!")...ever had any of these things happen when you're down over the shot too long? Happens all the time for many players...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

okinawa77 said:
Wow, how long does it take you to shoot?
Click to expand...
 
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RunoutalloverU...see above post regarding the timing of this process. This process BECOMES unconscious in the playing process. To build that, you must consciously TRAIN yourself to have a set, repeatable process. Then you have to PRACTICE what you trained yourself to do. THEN, you crossover and play. Once the process becomes an established habit, things happen very naturally all by themselves. The greatest benefit to this type of learning, is the ability to accurately diagnose what failed you, after you make an error (even Efren still makes errors!). This accurate self-diagnosis means that you can correct a 'potential' problem immediately, the next time you get back to the table...instead of making the same error, over and over, until you feel like you're "in a slump"! Get it now? :D Many players, from beginners to experts/pros have (and continue to be) benefitted from this type of training.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

RunoutalloverU said:
Do you consciously think of all the crap before every shot? Or did you just think about what you do and then write it down, id go nuts if i had to think about everything i did before every shot like on an itemized list.
Click to expand...
 
Scott Lee said:
okinawa77...The entire process described by elvicash takes, on an average, between 30 & 45 seconds...not long at all, when you think about the normal time it takes someone to process and shoot. Once we are mentally and physically established on the shot, we only have about 8-10 seconds to get the shot off, before your brain starts 'second-guessing' you ("cut it thinner", "shoot harder", "add english", "DON'T MISS!")...ever had any of these things happen when you're down over the shot too long? Happens all the time for many players...

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Click to expand...

Scott,

When I first started playing, I had the second guessing syndrome, but now I don't....or at least...not enough to notice. I usually only re-set myself if I get distracted, but it is hard for me to get distracted when I am at the table. I used to get distracted easily, but not now.

Now, I just set my feet where they need to be, then visualize the aim and mentally project the OB and CB track lines with dead center CB contact. If english is needed to get CB position, then I determine my aim based upon the english used, and mentally project the OB/CB track lines while determining how hard to hit the CB.
Once I have it all imagined in my head, I get down and find my CB contact point with my cue tip, take some practice strokes to tune in my cue velocity for the shot, and execute the shot.

So, in summary, I look at the table for awhile, then get down and shoot.
But, this is only in practice and play (competition).

In practice and play, if something goes wrong on a shot, then I replay the shot in my head, and can usually determine what went wrong, and how to fix it.

I haven't trained in quite awhile. Nowadays, training for me is usually reserved for learning techniques that are new to me that may elevate my game by adding more skills. My last training session was the slip stroke. I taught my self how to execute the stroke, but I did not find any significant advantages for using this stroke. So, I have reverted back to my normal stroke. I currently obtained the Pro Skill Drills set, and I plan to incorporate these into my practice sessions.

Is my method of a pre-shot routine wrong?

I have never had instruction...all self taught...other than some books and videos.

I wanted to get some instruction from a local BCA instructor, but he laughed at me, and said I was too high skill level to get any benefit from his clinic. I was really serious about taking the clinic. He said it was for low skill level players, but I wanted to do it...just to see if I was missing anything in my fundamentals. I thought it would look stupid if I showed up for the clinic session, and I convinced myself that he was right.

I am going to get a pen and paper and write down my preshot routine as elvicash stated in the beginning of his thread.

I apologize if I screwed up this thread with my postings. I feel like I am causing deviation from the original intent of the thread.
 
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... to adjust for the throw effect created by the friction between the cue ball and the object ball ... you need to cut less i.e. aim fuller than what the ghost ball suggests.
Click to expand...

You need to cut thinner to adjust for collision throw.

Second, if you apply spin, you need to adjust accordingly from that basis because of deflection and curving of the cue ball and additional throw effect on the object ball.
Click to expand...

If you use outside spin there will be less or even reverse throw effect.

pj
chgo
 
Elvicash....

I like the routine, and I will most likely print it out.

My question is, I also focus on my grip and my wrist. Is that bad? For some reason, if i miss a medium to easy shot. My next trip to the table, I put the death grip on my cue or I lock my wrist during my stroke.
 
WOW...I don't know who that instructor was, but he was DEAD wrong!...and for him to respond to you that way, was not only unprofessional, but shows that he is only comfortable teaching beginning players. There are plenty of great BCA instructors around the country. I can certainly recommend one in CA, if you're interested. I'll also be out in CA teaching in May, if you're interested in attending a pool school there. We offer students the option of leaving after the first day (regardless of skill level, and regardless of the reason) if they feel they shouldn't be there (with an appropriate refund of course). Almost NONE do. An expert player, who comes to pool school, goes through the exact same "process" as anyone else...and comes out knowing what they don't know! LOL

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

okinawa77 said:
I wanted to get some instruction from a local BCA instructor, but he laughed at me, and said I was too high skill level to get any benefit from his clinic. I was really serious about taking the clinic. He said it was for low skill level players, but I wanted to do it...just to see if I was missing anything in my fundamentals. I thought it would look stupid if I showed up for the clinic session, and I convinced myself that he was right.
Click to expand...
 
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Bugz said:
Elvicash....

I like the routine, and I will most likely print it out.

My question is, I also focus on my grip and my wrist. Is that bad? For some reason, if i miss a medium to easy shot. My next trip to the table, I put the death grip on my cue or I lock my wrist during my stroke.
Click to expand...

My thoughts on the forearm is that acts as the primary motive force for the cue balls forward velocity. Generally the speed I have my forearm moving at impact primarily controlls/sets the CB speed.

To control this I try to pay attention to my backswing distance. If I want to shoot at a slower shot I pull the tip back a shorter distance. If I want more velocity on the ball I pull back farther. I do better if I use the same distance for my waggles as I use on the actual stroke. I also fell I have more control or meter if I find the end of my back swing. This induces a pause before my forearm starts going forward.

I want a consistent follow thru with forearm ending forward and up so my hand finishes the stroke. My knuckles will be up and NOT flat. My tip will be on the felt or headed for the felt. My elbow if it drops will drop after impact but I try to hold my upper arm/elbow up and stationary.

My wrist is better if I do not use it alot. I can get good rotation on the CB with mostly mostly forearm motion and tip location. However this not to say the wrist is not useful. I know it is used and critical to most peoples strokes but not all (CJ Wiley if he uses his wrist it is almost imperceptible)

A very slight wrist snap at impact can be good for my game but a lot of wrist action induces error into my game. Reason - The wrist has multi axis rotation and the forearm has a single point of rotation.

When in action and not training or practicing, if and when I find myself dogging it what I focus on is getting my setup correct and minimizing my eye movements. Then when I execute the actual final stroke, my stroke thought is to have relaxed wrist minimal wrist action (not floppy) and I focus on the connecting the end of my forearm so it is passing perpendicalar at impact and staying on plane after striking the CB (Forearm stays on plane and start up and tip goes down, bridge and head stay in place).

Sometime I visualize a hammering of the tip thru the cue ball into the target spot on the object ball. This is the same as when you are driving nails and you go tap - tap - thru and you drive a nail in one pass. This is similiar to the pool stroke in my mind since if you do not contact the nail on plane then it will bend in the thru stroke, when you contact the nail head on plane you find the nail is driven almost effortlessly and hammer does the work and you seek or find the board.

Back to the wrist, I feel the snapping or extra/longer wrist action at impact can definitly be used to add more rotational spin to the CB. I think this can be seen in alot of strong players. Slow forearm and more wrist can give a higher spin rate, with slower CB forward velocity.

I think players who use alot of wrist action will have a higher error rate than player uses less wrist. Note - This error rate is initially controlled or set by the players natural talent and eye hand coordination. What I guess I am saying is real wristy players no matter how strong they play would probably find themselves more successful if they reduce the wrist action.

The grip is also critical. I find I am squeezing the cue too tight in pressure situations so I pay some attention to make sure my grip is relaxed. I like to use the front of grip to hold the cue primarily the first 2 fingers (barely or not touching with the middle finger) and thumb, also the part of my hand between my first finger and thumb, I do not like the cue way down in my fingers, I like it closer to my hand. The back of my grip flares open like the bell of horn but it is not that exagerated.

When I do use wrist action the flaring of my hand allows the cue to work naturally through my grip and back of my hand is more engaged with the wrap. This allows my stroke to work without pumping the back of the cue up and down excessivelly.
 
Didnt mean to come off brash evil, as a matter of fact my slumps usually last one ball in a run out when I don't get out. Never days or weeks. However, I think it just dawned on me that the reason I miss that one shot in a run out is because I don't actually have my routine (which is by the way very rigid and definite) written down, or finalized in some tangible form, Im going to attempt to do so (however it will be mostly aiming) and see what comes out. I need professional instruction for the rest, so Mr. Lee can you recommend a good BCA Master Instructor in the Orange County, CA area?
 
This is from my book "Safety Toolbox". It also has applications for Offensive shots.

  1. Create a mental picture of the perfect results. This includes every planned ball movement. Do NOT skip this step and try to wing it. You MUST pre-determine which balls will stop where.
  2. Envision the path each contacted ball will take and how far it will travel. This includes caroms, angles, combinations, double-kisses, and rail contact.
  3. Calculate the energies necessary for the stroke to match those paths. It is critical to know the division of energy transfers.
  4. Get into your shooting stance and make yourself comfortable.
  5. Mentally shoot the shot several times. Each mental shot will follow one of the balls to make sure the imagined energy is correct. Repeat for each ball you plan to move. Then do an imagined whole shot, concentrating on the stick speed.
  6. Now is the time! Make the stroke!

This is where your fantasy hits the table cloth. On the physical motion of your stick, all of your thoughts are committed. The forward stroke goes through the cue ball and the stick continues to the stop. The balls move forward until the energy of the stroke is all expended.

This is when you want to analyze the shot. If it went off as perfectly as you planned, you will have been able to successfully translate your thoughts to physical reality.

Rarely does that happen, even the best shot can be off by a half ball roll - or it could have gone horribly wrong. On anything less then true perfection, you want to go through the following process.

  1. Walk through the shot in your memory.
  2. Identify any point where your expectation broke with reality.
  3. Determine what exactly caused it.
  4. Mentally re-shot the shot with the correction.
  5. Vow to never, ever repeat that mistake.
 
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