How do you spot a hustler?

C

Chokeinator

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've been practicing a ton on my pool table at home so last night I told my wife I was gonna drop by the pool room and guage my game against a few locals. So I went kind of early and am watching these two guys play, ones a young kid and the other is an older guy about 40ish. It was still kinda early and they were the only people playing. So I am sitting at the bar nearby and the older guy starts making small talk with me. He's kind of coaching the younger kid. I'm not out looking for a money game as I only have 20 bucks on me and 10 bucks of that I am saving for a tournament later this week. So the guy makes a few comments like "I'm just messing around I could take all you guys money if I wanted." I just kinda nod my head and don't say anything as I'm a nice guy and don't really rate my game that highly.

So the guy asks me if people play for money around here. I tell him yeah there are a few people that probably would, and that I would if I wasn't so broke. So a few minutes later he says "I'll play one handed for 10 bucks." So I think about it a minute and clarify the rules. He plays one handed, I can use both hands, 8-ball, BCA rules. I stop and think about it a minute as I don't want to blow my tournament money for next week but figure if I lose I probably won't stand a chance in the tournament anyhow. Then when we go up to the table he gives me the break too. He's never seen me shoot.

So the guy is actually really good one handed, he's making some nice runs one handed no less, so I start concentrating on leaving the cueball in the middle of the table as he is using the rails as a bridge. This causes him to miss an object ball giving me ball in hand and I run out 4 balls for the win.

So he wants to do it again, same rules. I'm playing on his money now so I'm like sure. He plays a lot better this second game and ends up with one ball and the eight on the table before I am able to apply my cueball center strategy. I actually had to play a safety at one point to shut down his short game. Once I get him long on his object ball which is against an end rail, and get the cue ball center table he seems to be having real problems, he eventually sets me up for the eight ball and I win again. So I have 20 bucks.

The guy then asks me to play again and raises the stakes to 20, I politely decline saying that my wife is expecting me, I shake the guys hand, thank him for the games and leave.

So I go home and tell my wife about it and she thinks the guy was hustling me, (my wife has been known to hustle occasionally)maybe he was maybe he wasn't. If he was I think I left in the middle of his hustle. How does that usually work? I would think it only works against people willing to lose as A) I wasn't looking for a money game, and B) Once I was up I wasn't willing to go negative, meaning the most he could of got from me at any point after the initial game is his money back. If he had won the first game I would have payed my 10 bucks, thanked him for the game, and left.

I'm no pool pro but I like to think I'm good enough that you should at least play two handed, was it unethical of me to plan my strategy off his handicap? I had a friend once that was a lot better than me at pool but he had a really big ego, so one night I made a bunch of side bets with him that he wouldn't win a rotational game with about 4 people playing. I figured I had a 75% chance of winning everytime because the bet was always that he wouldn't win. With 4 people he only had a 25% chance of winning or at least that's how I looked at it. After I won about 60 bucks I felt kinda bad and considered taking some less favorable bets to let him win a little of his money back, thats when an older friend told me not to do it, he said "He'd take your money with no remorse." I thought about it a little and they older guy was right, the guy had taken money from me before though never that much.

Now I am willing to lose a little money against a good player, emphasis on a little. When I find a really good player I'll set a limit on how much I am willing to lose, and consider it pool lessons. I played a guy one time that was a road player and he was one of those guys that would take on all comers, you really have to respect somebody with that much faith in their game. I lost a few dollars to him and as we were friendly he let me hang out awhile and observe. I watched some kid come up to him, challenge him to a game of 8-ball at 2 bucks a ball, the kid gave him the break, so the guy gets up to the table runs out and wins and the kid has every ball left on the table and never got to shoot. The kid then asks the guy to play another for fun. So the road player says " I don't go to your job and ask you to work for free." The guy was really good but he was the type that would only play if something was at stake, I don't think the amount really mattered. I talked to the guy awhile and he seemed really cool, but I think what I picked up from him is that you take whatever you can get in terms of advantage.


So theres no real point other than what are some common hustles to watch out for? How do you guys know if you are being hustled or the guy is just a drunk with more money than common sense? I know for a fact there are alot of people that are willing to gamble that really aren't that good, but then you get those guys that are. My personal opinion at this point is A) You don't have to be good at pool to win money at pool and B) Only those willing to get hustled will get hustled. For instance I think the one handed guy could beat me with two hands and my friend with the big ego could beat me as well, yet I walked away with both of their money. Also not having a big ego it doesn't bother me to lose a little because I'm not willing to lose past a comfort limit, in a way I feel like that makes me kind of hustle proof. My wife thinks the one handed guy will see me as a future mark, maybe she's right. I hope not.
 
if you were REALLY hustled, you wouldn't know it.

i'd watch how they play. how they stroke through the CB. they can miss on purpose very easily, but hiding how they see the table and how they stroke through the CB is another story. if you just watch closely, a good player trying to play badly will do things that a bad player just does not do. forget about whether he's pocketing and trust your observation.

or do like me and don't gamble.
 
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I suspect the guy playing you one handed didn't care about losing to you in the early games. You probably never saw anything close to his game. And real one handed players don't care about a cue ball in the center of the table. Or anywhere else for that matter. LOL But after you left is when the real hustle probably started. Especially when the locals found out that you beat him.

I'll bet that a guy like Tony Robles can play better one handed then I can ever hope to play two handed.

And your quote: "my wife has been known to hustle occasionally"
sounds interesting.

Jake
 
jjinfla said:
I suspect the guy playing you one handed didn't care about losing to you in the early games. You probably never saw anything close to his game. And real one handed players don't care about a cue ball in the center of the table. Or anywhere else for that matter. LOL But after you left is when the real hustle probably started. Especially when the locals found out that you beat him.

I'll bet that a guy like Tony Robles can play better one handed then I can ever hope to play two handed.

And your quote: "my wife has been known to hustle occasionally"
sounds interesting.

Jake
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Actually I kind of suspect I didn't see anything close to his real game, I opted out when I did because I sensed it and the 20 bucks I got off him was enough to keep me playing for the week.
Me and my wife are pretty tight right now because we have a baby on the way so most of our money is going to savings and bills. The 20 I had to start with was my recreation money for the week. If I had lost I would be SOL (i.e. sitting at home watching ESPN) till next payday.

Now that you mention it I am curious who he played after me, there were a few people there when I left, I'm going back to that pool hall for a tournament monday so maybe I'll ask the bar tender what happened.

My wife is a really good player, when we first met she could beat me consistently and I played three years in a leauge and spent a ton of time in local pool halls trying to learn from the local sharks. When she was in the Army she was in Korea and used to make a second income off marines and other soldiers in the bars. She said they used to get drunk and couldn't stand losing to a girl.

She also used to play locally alot and could go into a bar and not spend a dime or get knocked off the table. We used to get into arguments constantly because she would throw games on purpose if she thought I was getting frustrated. When I first met her I would have bet on her against anyone. Since then her games degraded quite a bit and mines gotten alot better as I've finally after years and years learned the value of quality practice, so we are a little more even these days, however once she has the baby I'm pretty sure she'll get back up to par.

To this day she still occasionally does stuff that amazes me, like I'll be practicing a particularly difficult shot for me, and she'll come in our pool room and make it 5 times in a row, what really irks me is when she misses a shot and says she was just messing around, I'll call BS on her and then she'll make it 5 more times in a row to shut me up. Argghhhhh.

We practice together sometimes, we'll do stuff like play each other left handed, or break and run to see who can get the most balls off a break, she's slowed down quite a bit since she has gotten pregnant but the baby's due this month and I'm anxious for her to get back on her game.
 
Re: Re: How do you spot a hustler?

Plato_17 said:
There is no question about this, you seriously do not have a friggin clue. One, you never bet and win the first two games then pull up, take the money and run, what a whimp, what a low roller you are. The only reason the guy did not put a big dent in your head is he saw you what you were, a punk with only $20 in his pocket and he did not want to kill his action that night, so he let it slide. Any time you have any one wanting to play you one handed, you have a real roadie and hustler working you, he could have cleaned your clock one handed with out half trying.

Most of these guys are as good one handed as they are two. Your brilliant idea putting the ball in the middle of the table and him acting like he did not know what to do, another hustle, and he then raised the bet. These guys play that game best jacked up, they don't need the rail and only use it for the initial set up and trap. In the middle, they can hit the spear shot, they can stop, follow or draw, they don't show that one to you until the trap is sprung. You are too green behind the ears to be gambling for more than a quarter. :D
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lol, why are you mad? One I didn't ask him to play he asked me, two if someone is giving money away I will take it, sorry I'm not made out of money. Three I am well aware of my ability level on a pool table and excuse me for not throwing my money away. Four I may be a low roller but I walked out of the bar with my money and then some so who got hustled? Sounds like you are the mark. Maybe next time I'll wait around for the trap to be sprung will that make me not wet behind the ears?
 
chokeineator

getting in a bad mood listening to this crap -- if you won the lottery, you sound like a guy would still bet 10.00, win two games, then lose one and quit. {bad action or better than yet no action. lots of your kind around.
 
Re: chokeineator

JMB said:
getting in a bad mood listening to this crap -- if you won the lottery, you sound like a guy would still bet 10.00, win two games, then lose one and quit. {bad action or better than yet no action. lots of your kind around.
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That's fine, you give em your money, and I'll keep mine. Being a rookie or not denounces thought and in this case according to several people on this thread I am clearly not a rookie because I knew when to walk away. A rookie would have kept playing and probably would have lost money that night. As you can see I'm not green here nor was I looking to shark someone, I just know my self and my game, and I gamble with my brain not my ego. In this case I walked away with my money doubled and bought cheetos and soda pop instead of pulling lint out of my pocket and leaving the bar as the guy that lost to one handed hustler.
 
Actually, this thread can be a lot of fun. We all have been done in at one point of our pool lives. We were all stupid once. Everyone starts out stupid in this game. I guess pool mastery is measured by how far down you have left stupidity along the road. But once in a while we are still allowed to get stupid, are we not.

If it cannot be educational, then let it be entertaining.

Think of it this way... the fact that many difficult people manage to hang around a pool hall means we are quite tolerant with them for the love of the game. Maybe also for the love of our pretty boy complexions as we might get messed up in the process of getting impatient with difficult people. It's just that in this Forum, it's easier to be arrogant and very brave.

So if it cannot be educational nor entertaining, then let it be hot air. Just cover your noses a few seconds for the stink to go up and help deplete the ozone layer. But everybody knows who has the skid marks.
 
Re: Re: How do you spot a hustler?

Originally posted by Plato_17 Most of these guys are as good one handed as they are two. [/B]
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What are one or two of the best hustles you've pulled off, Plato?
 
Chokeinator, Plato is right. You have no clue. You still are a rookie.

I'll bet when you play cards if you win the first few hands you cash in and say, "sorry guys, got to go home". LOL

Or if you go to the race track and your "show" bet on the first race comes in you take your $2.20 and quit betting and then tell everyone how you made money at the track.

Face it, you just are not a gambler. Or a stand up guy. A stand up guy just doesn't win the first few games and then refuse to let the other win some back.

But that's okay, you just are not a gambler. You may know yourself and your game but you have no idea of your opponents game. That guy may have been nothing but an old man wanting to play and wasn't really trying to hustle you. You may have just been lucky to win. Who knows? But I would say that after you walked out after winning two games word has gotten out and you may not get anyone else to play you. But that is okay, you are better off not gambling because without a doubt you will be playing scared (of losing $10) and that is the death of all gamblers. LOL

Jake
 
personaly,

yes its bad form to take the money and run.

BUT he wanted to raise the bet and you didnt, so tecnically the game is over since you are at a stalemate on the match agreement.

reguardless you are 20$ ahead of the game. and he is not. the rich dont get rich by letting others tell him when he can go home.

jjinfla said:
That guy may have been nothing but an old man wanting to play and wasn't really trying to hustle you. You may have just been lucky to win. Who knows?
Jake
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if thats the best alternative you can come up with then ill mail you 10$ to buy a clue.

1) if a man wanted to just play and not for profit he wouldnt play 1 handed. its rather disrespectful to another player to play less then your game if your not trying to hustle.

2) the guy wouldnt brag about how he can take all this kids money then offer you a $$ game (trying to make you feel better about your game compaired to his current oppenant.)
 
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jjinfla said:
Chokeinator, Plato is right. You have no clue. You still are a rookie.

I'll bet when you play cards if you win the first few hands you cash in and say, "sorry guys, got to go home". LOL

Or if you go to the race track and your "show" bet on the first race comes in you take your $2.20 and quit betting and then tell everyone how you made money at the track.

Face it, you just are not a gambler. Or a stand up guy. A stand up guy just doesn't win the first few games and then refuse to let the other win some back.

But that's okay, you just are not a gambler. You may know yourself and your game but you have no idea of your opponents game. That guy may have been nothing but an old man wanting to play and wasn't really trying to hustle you. You may have just been lucky to win. Who knows? But I would say that after you walked out after winning two games word has gotten out and you may not get anyone else to play you. But that is okay, you are better off not gambling because without a doubt you will be playing scared (of losing $10) and that is the death of all gamblers. LOL

Jake
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When I go to the track, I only bet to win.

When I make an agreement to play for money, I don't owe anyone anything outside of that agreement. I would have happily paid up if I had lost, but I didn't lose.

Personally I found it very disrespectful that the guy was first bragging that he could take all my money, and second was going to play me one handed without even seeing my game.

I seriously doubt I'll have a problem finding someone else to play for money. Read my post, I said it before, I'm not opposed to dropping a little cash on a better player, but I want their game not their hustle. I used to hang out in a pool hall in Texas all the time and would routinely gamble with some of the better players, they walked out of the bar with my money all the time, but I got their game up front.

I never play scared, because I never gamble more than I am willing to lose.

edit: p.s. However I will keep all of you guys opinions in mind next time, even the ones I don't like. Thanks for the response.
 
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I would suggest that whenever you gamble you follow these rules:

1. Start out low, i.e., never bet more than a third of what you have in your pocket.
2. Never give your opponent a chance to get his/her money back in one frame(unless you know you got the nuts).
3. Set a time to quit up front win, lose or draw.
4. Freeze the money up front and post it with a reliable 3rd party.

There's more but those are the essentials. This guy was hustling the area not necessarily you. You might have given him the opportunity to hustle someone else. That $20 might have been just "seed" money in order to get other suckers to take the same bet.

I don't know why Plato came off so strong with you. You said you mostly play at home so naturally you don't know all the unwritten rules about pool ettiquette. Some of these posters live on the wrong side of the bed!! It's been a long standing unwritten rule that you always give someone an opportunity to get his/her money back. This is one of the reasons I don't like to gamble, especially at my favorite pool hall. You take someone's money and they'll be hounding you for weeks trying to get it back. You either have to keep taking their money or wind up giving it back by giving up more and more weight until he/she eventually does get at least some of it back. I just don't get the logic. Besides, I don't want to be hassled every time I walk into my pool hall. Sometimes they hit you up before you get two feet into the pool hall!
 
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Chokeinator- when you go out to gamble on a pool game, be prepared to leave empty handed. Don't go looking for a $$ game with $20 in your pocket and plan on eating, drinking, paying for the table time and ask someone "want to play a game for $10" or accept a challenge for $10 either. The only way you should be gambling for $$ is if you don't care to lose ALL of it (in your pocket). You never play one game for high dollars and not plan to play another game, either win or lose! I have a suggestion for you...it appears you're very tight with your allowance, why not find a player that you know, but in your mind you think he's just a little out of your league. Offer to play this guy a race to say 5 or 7 for $10 for the set, or say $2/$3 game. (you lose 9-5,that's $12) This way you get more games for your money and it's a challenge to you mentally to beat this player that you don't think you can. Watch this players moves, stance, stroke, his ball position, his attitude when he misses or gets out of shape, learn from this and use this against him. I guarentee that after you play about 4-5 sets with the same guy or different guys/girls, you will see a big improvement in your game. This can only happen if you challenge yourself, this does not include playing charactors like the "one handed bandit". I don't think you got hustled, I think you cheated him, JMO! You don't walk out on a player who's losing, unless stated upfront...I'm only playing XX games or I've only got XXminutes to play then I'm done.

Thanks and this is just my opinion, don't take it the wrong way please,
Zim
 
Choke - i'm on your side. You left up. If you did that every day, making an additional $20 a day, you could enjoy your hobby, get all table time paid for, and probably have a drink.

the "low-roller" comments prove that there is nothing but purely arbitrary thought going on here. it's not a matter of how much you win or lose that makes you a smart/good gambler - it's how often you win/lose. riding on hope until you're down and pawn your wedding ring doesn't make you an admirable person. hell, even taking that risk doesn't make you an admirable person, gambler, or player. to be one of the greats, you'd never HAVE to be down a game.

say you played $5 pool all night and were up a grand. would quitting make you a bad gambler? according to the folks here who believe you have to be taking massive risks, yeah, you would be.

when gambling on your own abilities, the key is knowing how to win and when to quit so your CUMULATIVE winnings and your win/loss ratio is favorable.

trying to show off so you have a "high-roller" story when you end up losing is just poor practice...

the easiest marks, from everything i've ever learned, are those with an ego and those who consider themselves high-rollers.

it's the smart guys, the little guys, who play well enough to win on small chipper bets who end up looking good and not hating themselves for losing their rent money...
 
Tobyjoe,

I don't disagree with everything you're saying, just most of it. In most of the pool halls I've been in, I'm 53 so you do the math, anyone that follows your advice will be subject to getting their ass kicked sooner or later. Like I said in my previous post, the unwritten rule is that you have to give your opponent a chance to get his/her money back. And, like I also said, I don't necessarily agree with that logic, but that's just the way it is whether you and I like it or not.
 
One more thing. If you insist on betting and running, state it up front. Tell the person you're betting with that if you win, that you're going to quit. You probably won't get the bet though but at least you're being honest and upfront.
 
oh, rick, sorry if i misrepresented myself :)

I don't mean that it's cool to bet and run. You should definitely mention that you have to head out in an hour, or whatever, definitely at LEAST one game before you need to split, and you should be courteous and sportsmanlike about the remaining games (ie, not playing for $1 when you're $2000 up!).

I think it's VERY uncool to win and immediately run out. VERY uncool.

I was more talking about quitting while ahead in general, and about not dipping below your own limit (like, always leaving with as much as you went in with, if you can).

It sounded like lots of people were attacking the guy for not raising the stakes, or not sticking around until he lost his diaper money. I may have read wrong :)


Though, I must say, there is a hustle-the-hustler game I heard about a lot while growing up where the hustler is known for giving lesser players easy wins for a few games, then upping the stakes, and you know about it ahead of time. What I was told happens often is that a player will come in, play the easy games, and when he can tell the guy is gonna turn up the heat, say "yeah, i'll play a couple more games for double, but i have to split in half an hour"

that way, he can win a little bit of his money back, you're still being pretty cool about it, and since he wasn't just left high-and-dry, and wants more action from other players, he probably won't get upset when you leave 30% up from what you started with...

i wish people would just step up and play their best every game, be totally honest, and let the best PLAYER win. but since guys DO play tricks, DO string you along and milk you, i don't see why doing the same to them (in a tactful way) is a bad thing.
 
to choker and whatever you want to call yourself - who the hell would want to waste their time hustling you ? none of you 10.00 - 20.00 budget players should be allowed to talk about playing for money. im sure you can be spotted right away by most players-gamblers, of which you are neither. go back to the ymca and play some children, thats more your speed.
 
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