How do you stroke?

J

JonoNZ

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have been sitting down and doing a lot of reading lately and watching of pool games/videos to see how people stroke the ball and whether it is related to their stance.

The one conclusion I have come to is that your warm up strokes should be at a consistent speed and also at the speed that you shoot the shot.

What I am wondering is do you shoot all shots the same speed, just harder, or do you speed up your forearm. I would also like to know whether you believe your stroke is the key to potting and that is it (ie your stance and grip are there to make your stroke better).

Please feel free to talk about anything that you believe relates to this :cool:
 
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JonoNZ said:
I have been sitting down and doing a lot of reading lately and watching of pool games/videos to see how people stroke the ball and whether it is related to their stance.

The one conclusion I have come to is that your warm up strokes should be at a consistent speed and also at the speed that you shoot the shot.

What I am wondering is do you shoot all shots the same speed, just harder, or do you speed up your forearm. I would also like to know whether you believe your stroke is the key to potting and that is it (ie your stance and grip are there to make your stroke better).

Please feel free to talk about anything that you believe relates to this :cool:
Click to expand...

The key to potting is sending the cueball to exactly what you are aiming at. A person who can do this consistently, is going to be a great shotmaker. This branches off to certain parts of fundamentals. You can't send the cueball to exactly what you are aiming at consistently, if your stroke is off. This then branches to alignment. You can't stroke straight and pocket a ball if your alignment is off. When your alignment is off, your subconcious mind causes you to twist and turn your stroke to try to compensate for faulty alignment. Again, alignment branches off to your stance. You can't align properly on a consistent basis if your stance is not properly tuned to your alignment. And yet again (I hope I havent lost you), this branches off to your pre-shot routine. If you don't have a consistent preshot routine, you won't get in your proper stance consistently. And then there is the subconcious mind and concious mind fighting each other.

In a nutshell, this game is friggin hard. :D
 
I completely agree with what you are saying.

What I am trying to get at though I guess is the rhythm of your stroke is what will make you stroke straight. Now whether this is something that increases your concentration, or makes it easier for your muscles to remember what to do correctly I don't know. I am trying to search through my problems.

One day I will shoot everything and I can see patterns easily and the next day, or even the next match I can't pot the easiest things and I cannot recognise simple patterns :confused:
 
JonoNZ said:
I completely agree with what you are saying.

What I am trying to get at though I guess is the rhythm of your stroke is what will make you stroke straight. Now whether this is something that increases your concentration, or makes it easier for your muscles to remember what to do correctly I don't know. I am trying to search through my problems.

One day I will shoot everything and I can see patterns easily and the next day, or even the next match I can't pot the easiest things and I cannot recognise simple patterns :confused:
Click to expand...

I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. I experience the same thing, and in fact, everyone else does too. Rythm in your stroke is extremely important. If you don't stroke with the same rythm consistently, you cannot build muscle memory. When you are in stroke, you get that 'feeling'. Not only are you seeing patterns clearly and pocketing balls, but your stroke feels consistent. It feels like the cue is an extention of your arm. Your stance feels rock solid, and your mind is dialed in at the task at hand.

Efren Reyes has the same stroke rythm, all the time. Every shot. Whether he fires a ball in, or lags a ball in, everything is the same except for the final delivery.

Thorsten Hohmann is another example. He takes a quicker backstroke, and a slower forward stroke all the time. Just on the final forward stroke it changes.

In many players, if they are about to stroke a ball real fast, you might see a little wind up in the elbow. That's not necessary IMO, but it definately does work for alot of pros, there is no doubt about that.

Length of bridge doesn't have much to do with rythm. Many pro players use longer or shorter bridges, depending on the shot. But the majority keep the same stroke rythm. You can't have a good repeatable stroke without muscle memory.

I have some advice that might help your stroke. When you are taking your practice strokes, imagine as if your grip hand is going to hit the object ball. Imagine there is no cue in your grip hand. On your forward practice strokes, just pretend you are hitting the cueball to the object ball with your hand. This will conciously help your arm and stroke to go straighter. It's a good way to build muscle memory. When I'm in a slump, sometimes this helps get me out of it.

One thing to keep in mind about practice strokes and the final stroke- Practice strokes involve muscle tension in your arm to both pull the cue back, and bring it forward to a stop at the cueball. The final stroke is a release of the cue. Very minimal muscle tension is required, no matter how hard you hit the cueball. In fact if you tense up more when you hit it, you'll probably find that you will get less action on the cueball. Less tension equals a better stroke. Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for that - I will try the grip hitting the ball idea.

I am actually as we speak watching the match between Efren and Pan and I just noticed that he always does exactly the same thing in his stroke at the beginning.

I used to just do the 1 - 2 - 3 - pause at back and stroke, but it just doesn't seem to register for me anymore. I think it is because it puts too much tension on the stroke and would explain my difficulty in drawing the cueball using this method on most days.
 
Just noticed in the 3rd frame (2-0 to Efren) when Efren misses the 2 ball he speeds through his follow through and doesnt have his brief pause at the end of his warmup strokes.
 
JonoNZ said:
Just noticed in the 3rd frame (2-0 to Efren) when Efren misses the 2 ball he speeds through his follow through and doesnt have his brief pause at the end of his warmup strokes.
Click to expand...

Back in the 70's and while in Shreveport, Buddy went throgh a brif period where he would rush a bit {hard to imagine I know} on off angle long shots and didn't have that brif puse at the end of his stroke and would also raise uup on the shot resulting in some strange misses.

I think it was Wade Crane who brought it to his attention, and in about 15 minutes the problem was fixed.

My point, is that I have seen this happen to scores of players over the years.
 
ironman said:
Back in the 70's and while in Shreveport, Buddy went throgh a brif period where he would rush a bit {hard to imagine I know} on off angle long shots and didn't have that brif puse at the end of his stroke and would also raise uup on the shot resulting in some strange misses.

I think it was Wade Crane who brought it to his attention, and in about 15 minutes the problem was fixed.

My point, is that I have seen this happen to scores of players over the years.
Click to expand...

"The yips". Everybody gets them. A consistent routine that you trust (and stick to!) is the answer to avoiding them.

To the OP, not every shot is the same speed, so not every stroke is the same speed. For medium-soft to medium shots (most shots I play), I put about the same amount of muscle force into the shot, but vary the length of my backswing, which means that that same force has either more or less space to accelerate the cue, and thus accelerates it to a lesser or greater speed. But on shots outside that average speed range, I do my warm-up strokes with greater or lesser speed to get my muscles ready to deliver the cue with greater or lesser speed. It only makes sense. What's important to recognize is that these warm-ups, although they vary in speed, are part of a greater structured routine, including what you do between shots, how you align, how you get into stance, where you focus your eyes and for how long during parts of the routine, how many warm-ups you take, and where you pause. All of this should stay consistent to enable your body to learn, within this structure, to deliver the cue correctly every time. Inconsistency only confuses your sub-conscious and your muscle memory, not allowing you to find a rhythm (or "the zone", as it's often perceived).

I would suggest that if you're interested in this stuff, talk to an instructor, especially one who either is Scott Lee or teaches the same methods he does. He'll explain this to you in great detail, including specifics on how it applies to you and your stroke, and specific training methods to teach yourself a consistent routine.

-Andrew
 
Thanks Ironman - I agree with you and I think it is more a matter or me not being so lazy ultimately :rolleyes:
 
Yesterday, on the BBC web coverage of the World championship, before play began, the commentators had a question and answer session with the peanut gallery.

One question was about Ronnie's stroke. Steve Davis and John Parrott rattled off the idiosyncrasies of various players with the hand on the cue butt (Ronnie keeps all fingers on the butt) - they have as wide a variation as pool players - and came to the conclusion that superior cueing isn't the grip but the result of the movement of the arm - consistent and smooth, achieved by muscle memory.

Unfortunately, they demurred offering a method of achieving superior arm movement.
 
"Unfortunately, they demurred offering a method of achieving superior arm movement."

Can't give away the tricks of the trade now can they :cool:
 
JonoNZ said:
I have been sitting down and doing a lot of reading lately and watching of pool games/videos to see how people stroke the ball and whether it is related to their stance.

The one conclusion I have come to is that your warm up strokes should be at a consistent speed and also at the speed that you shoot the shot.

What I am wondering is do you shoot all shots the same speed, just harder, or do you speed up your forearm. I would also like to know whether you believe your stroke is the key to potting and that is it (ie your stance and grip are there to make your stroke better).

Please feel free to talk about anything that you believe relates to this :cool:
Click to expand...

Watch video's of Stephen Hendry playing snooker on youtube.

Your warm up strokes do not have to mimic the pace that you will use to shoot the shot. All of Hendry's warm up strokes are slow regardless of whether or not he pounds the ball.

I've mentioned this before but, there is no better stroke to copy than Stephen Hendry.
 
Danny Basovitch and Mika make practice strokes in the air before they ever get down on the table. I'm surprised that this technique has not been universally adopted by all pool players looking for an edge.:D

Snooker players never do it. They use an open bridge.
 
Andrew Manning said:
"The yips". Everybody gets them. A consistent routine that you trust (and stick to!) is the answer to avoiding them.

To the OP, not every shot is the same speed, so not every stroke is the same speed. For medium-soft to medium shots (most shots I play), I put about the same amount of muscle force into the shot, but vary the length of my backswing, which means that that same force has either more or less space to accelerate the cue, and thus accelerates it to a lesser or greater speed. But on shots outside that average speed range, I do my warm-up strokes with greater or lesser speed to get my muscles ready to deliver the cue with greater or lesser speed. It only makes sense. What's important to recognize is that these warm-ups, although they vary in speed, are part of a greater structured routine, including what you do between shots, how you align, how you get into stance, where you focus your eyes and for how long during parts of the routine, how many warm-ups you take, and where you pause. All of this should stay consistent to enable your body to learn, within this structure, to deliver the cue correctly every time. Inconsistency only confuses your sub-conscious and your muscle memory, not allowing you to find a rhythm (or "the zone", as it's often perceived).

I would suggest that if you're interested in this stuff, talk to an instructor, especially one who either is Scott Lee or teaches the same methods he does. He'll explain this to you in great detail, including specifics on how it applies to you and your stroke, and specific training methods to teach yourself a consistent routine.

-Andrew
Click to expand...
For the most part, I agree with you, except for, "I do my warm-up strokes with greater or lesser speed to get my muscles ready to deliver the cue with greater or lesser speed. It only makes sense." That doesn't make sense to me. Your stroke is not going to be the same length when addressing the CB as it is when striking the CB - the cue must stop before hitting the CB during a warm-up stroke. If you're using warm-up strokes to get your muscles ready, you're getting them ready to do the wrong thing.

The main reason we address the CB has nothing to do with arm speed - it has to do with tip placement.

-djb
 
DoomCue said:
For the most part, I agree with you, except for, "I do my warm-up strokes with greater or lesser speed to get my muscles ready to deliver the cue with greater or lesser speed. It only makes sense." That doesn't make sense to me. Your stroke is not going to be the same length when addressing the CB as it is when striking the CB - the cue must stop before hitting the CB during a warm-up stroke. If you're using warm-up strokes to get your muscles ready, you're getting them ready to do the wrong thing.

The main reason we address the CB has nothing to do with arm speed - it has to do with tip placement.

-djb
Click to expand...

Hey doom, I think he was talking about the speed rather than the length.

I will stroke a little faster and then slow down one stroke at warm-up. Seems to help. I do this with some consistency, kinda like a basketball free thrower will go through a pattern before the shot.
 
It helped anyway

I tried to make my stroke consistent again and it worked. Someone who I lost to last night in a tournament 4-1 I beat tonight 5-1, 5-1, 5-3. It was good taking someone else's money again :D

My stroke was consistent in my approach, but with variations in final warmup strokes, kind of like Efrens (I was watching videos of him last night).

It's great because I haven't seen the balls drop this easily in a very long time and I only started playing 3 1/2 years ago. First set I was 3-0 up before he had a shot so I'm happy.

Thanks guys for your input and hopefully some other people will find this helpful!!!
 
pete lafond said:
Hey doom, I think he was talking about the speed rather than the length.

I will stroke a little faster and then slow down one stroke at warm-up. Seems to help. I do this with some consistency, kinda like a basketball free thrower will go through a pattern before the shot.
Click to expand...
Pete, I gathered the same thing, he was talking about speed. Length of stroke affects the speed of the shot. In the case of warm-up strokes, the triceps must work against the biceps to stop the back hand from moving, thus avoiding a foul during the practice stroke. That's why I said he's warming up his muscles to do the wrong thing. The cue must either accelerate/decelerate quicker, or never reach the desired speed if warming up for a high speed stroke, using Andrew's method.

There is no physical reason I can think of to change the practice stroke speed to try to match the striking stroke speed. I'd also wager that the two speeds never match anyway, especially at higher stroke speeds, due to the constraint of length.

That being said, if it helps mentally, go for it.

-djb
 
DoomCue said:
Pete, I gathered the same thing, he was talking about speed. Length of stroke affects the speed of the shot. In the case of warm-up strokes, the triceps must work against the biceps to stop the back hand from moving, thus avoiding a foul during the practice stroke. That's why I said he's warming up his muscles to do the wrong thing. The cue must either accelerate/decelerate quicker, or never reach the desired speed if warming up for a high speed stroke, using Andrew's method.

There is no physical reason I can think of to change the practice stroke speed to try to match the striking stroke speed. I'd also wager that the two speeds never match anyway, especially at higher stroke speeds, due to the constraint of length.

That being said, if it helps mentally, go for it.

-djb
Click to expand...

I follow you, and agree that speed of stroke, no mater what, will never be consistent. What I do know is that when I'm in stroke, I feel much more relaxed, my pre stroke seems to be closer to a rhythmic consistency with speed, count and length..

As you well stated, what ever gets you there mentally.
 
DoomCue said:
The main reason we address the CB has nothing to do with arm speed - it has to do with tip placement.

-djb
Click to expand...

I've seen pretty good players who one-stroke every shot, but most of us can't do it that way.
 
Scaramouche said:
Yesterday, on the BBC web coverage of the World championship, before play began, the commentators had a question and answer session with the peanut gallery.

One question was about Ronnie's stroke. Steve Davis and John Parrott rattled off the idiosyncrasies of various players with the hand on the cue butt (Ronnie keeps all fingers on the butt) - they have as wide a variation as pool players - and came to the conclusion that superior cueing isn't the grip but the result of the movement of the arm - consistent and smooth, achieved by muscle memory.

Unfortunately, they demurred offering a method of achieving superior arm movement.
Click to expand...

Here is a video of Ronnie playing. The commentator refers to the question and how Ronnie strokes the ball at around the 7 minute mark.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=W46GUxUQYw8
 
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