How good are you?

Celtic

Celtic

AZB's own 8-ball jihadist
Silver Member
OK, simple way to figure this out, imagine you are sitting in the Cue Club in Las Vegas and in walks Johnny Archer. Up he comes walking and asks you if ya want to shoot some cheap $100 sets. You happen to have just had great luck at the blackjack tables and therefore have a few hundred bucks on ya and therefore can play (lets pretend you gamble pool even if ya dont). He offers you a spot, a number of games in a race to 9, whatever you find fair.

Now the question is how many games in a race to 9 would Archer have to give you before you figure the set is 50/50? Straight up most of us are dogs, getting 8-9 most of us would have to be huge favorites, so where in the middle of those two extremes do you figure you would lie? We all know how the guy shoots, how many chances on average you are going to get in a match like that, how well you can shoot in those chances to change them into wins.

I would say I would be around the 4 games in a race to 9 spot area to be even money against the guy. Basically he would need to win 9-4 in each match, if I get to 5 games I win, and I think that would be a pretty tight match going either way.
 
Well, honestly i wouldnt know what to reasonably ask for lol. But considering my level and what i have played against. In a race to 9 , i would probably need 4 games and also the 8ball.

I only ask for the 8ball because, for some reason when i play on a 9ft, i can run 6balls fairly consistent, and considering i normally make 1 ball on the break, that means i am running to the 7 or 8 ball and i normally can make those balls in but get crappy position on the 9.

Now i have always thought, that the pro's are so good in which they could basically give 90% of the people who shoot pool, any type of normal spot, either it be the last 4 or 5 on the table, or 4 or 5 games on the wire, and still win.


dave
 
Hmmm...this is an interesting question. I know Johnny and I've played him several times, both just banging balls around and in local tournaments....and I've even taken lessons from him. If he's having a good day and you're not a pro you're going to have a very tough time matching up with him. Even when Johnny misses, he doesn't miss. He'll leave you in jail nearly every time. If you get to break, you had better be able to keep him in his chair. He consistently strings 3 or more racks at an inning. If you can't match that, you definitely can't play him even. He beat me in a local tournament about 6 years ago 6-2 in an even race to 6 and was talking on his cellphone while he was shooting most of the match...he wasn't really bearing down. The two games I won were a 9 on the break and a relatively easy combination on the 9. The other times I've played him I didn't get more than 1 game and it's possible he let me have it. Johnny is a heck of a nice guy and I think he'll give a lower ranked player a game or two just to keep from discouraging them.

The only way I know to set a spot that everyone can relate to is to use APA skill levels as a baseline. I know, APA SL's can vary in actual playing ability, but if we take the average player in each SL it will probably give a good idea.

SL 1-3: There isn't a reasonable spot big enough. These are people that can't consistently run more than 3 balls in a run, do not really play position and have very little concept of safety play or escaping safeties. To make a fair match for this SL, Johnny would have to give up 8 games on the wire and the SL 1-3 would have to hope for a lucky break.

SL 4: 7 games on the wire and the breaks.

SL 5: 6 games on the wire and the breaks.

SL 6: 5 games on the wire and the breaks.

SL 7: 4 games on the wire and the 8.

SL8: 3 games on the wire and the 8.

SL9: 2 games on the wire and (maybe) the 8.


That's just my idea of how they would have to match up based on my experiences with Johnny.
 
this is a good thread. only way i'd play archer at this point and time would be:

6 games on the wire, maybe the break

4 games on the wire, with the orange crush or the 6 out, if i could get him to give me the crack i would.

or

3 games on the wire, the crack, and ball in hand ONCE per RACK whenever i choose :D


but to stick with the original question, to make it perfectly even, i'd have to have AT LEAST 4 on the wire.


VAP
 
vapoolplayer said:
this is a good thread. only way i'd play archer at this point and time would be:

6 games on the wire, maybe the break

4 games on the wire, with the orange crush or the 6 out, if i could get him to give me the crack i would.

or

3 games on the wire, the crack, and ball in hand ONCE per RACK whenever i choose :D


but to stick with the original question, to make it perfectly even, i'd have to have AT LEAST 4 on the wire.


VAP
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I'd have to have 4-5 games on the wire and possibly the breaks to be competitive. I played Danny Harriman, though not even close to his best game, a few races (even) and split a couple to 7 and lost one to 10 with a score of 10-5.
 
vapoolplayer said:
3 games on the wire, the crack, and ball in hand ONCE per RACK whenever i choose :D
Click to expand...


I like the ball in hand ONCE per RACK whenever I choose. Personally I would choose it just as he is walking around to his 9 ball shot. :D


I'll be bold and say 5 and hope he doesn't string to many together that day.
 
CaptainJR said:
I like the ball in hand ONCE per RACK whenever I choose. Personally I would choose it just as he is walking around to his 9 ball shot. :D


I'll be bold and say 5 and hope he doesn't string to many together that day.
Click to expand...


i like that one cap...........although i'm sure johnny would restrict you to use that only when its your turn at the table..............LOL
 
GeraldG said:
Hmmm...this is an interesting question. I know Johnny and I've played him several times, both just banging balls around and in local tournaments....and I've even taken lessons from him. If he's having a good day and you're not a pro you're going to have a very tough time matching up with him. Even when Johnny misses, he doesn't miss. He'll leave you in jail nearly every time. If you get to break, you had better be able to keep him in his chair. He consistently strings 3 or more racks at an inning. If you can't match that, you definitely can't play him even. He beat me in a local tournament about 6 years ago 6-2 in an even race to 6 and was talking on his cellphone while he was shooting most of the match...he wasn't really bearing down. The two games I won were a 9 on the break and a relatively easy combination on the 9. The other times I've played him I didn't get more than 1 game and it's possible he let me have it. Johnny is a heck of a nice guy and I think he'll give a lower ranked player a game or two just to keep from discouraging them.

The only way I know to set a spot that everyone can relate to is to use APA skill levels as a baseline. I know, APA SL's can vary in actual playing ability, but if we take the average player in each SL it will probably give a good idea.

SL 1-3: There isn't a reasonable spot big enough. These are people that can't consistently run more than 3 balls in a run, do not really play position and have very little concept of safety play or escaping safeties. To make a fair match for this SL, Johnny would have to give up 8 games on the wire and the SL 1-3 would have to hope for a lucky break.

SL 4: 7 games on the wire and the breaks.

SL 5: 6 games on the wire and the breaks.

SL 6: 5 games on the wire and the breaks.

SL 7: 4 games on the wire and the 8.

SL8: 3 games on the wire and the 8.

SL9: 2 games on the wire and (maybe) the 8.


That's just my idea of how they would have to match up based on my experiences with Johnny.
Click to expand...


Although this is one hell of a compliment considering what my APA SL is, I'd need more than 2 games and the 8 from a player like Archer. Really, he's off the amateur scale so comparing him to the APA totum poll is a waste of time. Ginky & Tony Robles give me 5 on 10 which is borderline fair. In the end, it all boils down to how well they're playing. If they're playing jam-up run-out pool, no spot will make the difference. I've seen Ginky give the 5-out to A level players AND ROB THEM. Forget 4 on 9 or 5 on 9 which would fall in line with this thread. I'd want 2 on 5. That way, I know I can break and run sets on him!
 
In short, I wouldn't play for 100 bones a rack.

As the saying goes ; "walk into a room and look for the chump. If you can't see him, then you're it".

I'd be very interested in playing him, but only to learn about myself.

It would also be a straight up race.

Dave
 
Here's my take. Since its found money, I'd play just for the sheer joy of being on the table with Archer. As for the weight? Tough to say. You have to remember that Archer (IMO) is arguable the best when he is on top of his game. And me? I'm (not so arguably) the best choke artist in the world. I fold like a house of cards in the wind when the pressure mounts. I'd take 4-5 on the wire and the breaks. ...and I'd probably still lose.
 
I would play him even, IF...........

Celtic said:
OK, simple way to figure this out, imagine you are sitting in the Cue Club in Las Vegas and in walks Johnny Archer. Up he comes walking and asks you if ya want to shoot some cheap $100 sets. You happen to have just had great luck at the blackjack tables and therefore have a few hundred bucks on ya and therefore can play (lets pretend you gamble pool even if ya dont). He offers you a spot, a number of games in a race to 9, whatever you find fair.

Now the question is how many games in a race to 9 would Archer have to give you before you figure the set is 50/50? Straight up most of us are dogs, getting 8-9 most of us would have to be huge favorites, so where in the middle of those two extremes do you figure you would lie? We all know how the guy shoots, how many chances on average you are going to get in a match like that, how well you can shoot in those chances to change them into wins.
I would say I would be around the 4 games in a race to 9 spot area to be even money against the guy. Basically he would need to win 9-4 in each match, if I get to 5 games I win, and I think that would be a pretty tight match going either way.
Click to expand...

I would play him even - If - he has been drinking a lot of beer and promised to go to the bathroom at leats once a game, I'd have "The Nuts"!

TY & GL
 
4 on the wire plus the breaks, I still wouldn't like my chances. I would just love the opportunity to play a few sets with Johnny!
 
OldHasBeen said:
I would play him even - If - he has been drinking a lot of beer and promised to go to the bathroom at least once a game, I'd have "The Nuts"!

TY & GL
Click to expand...

If you can't win when the opponents in the bathroom, you have no business playing. :D
 
Mathematics

*my calculations might be off, since I'm in hurry to get to the SBE, but I'll look over them, and give other spots later*

Even with one game on the wire, Johnny can't be beat (on paper at 5% increments) unless you play even with him. Mathematically, to say you only need 1 game on the wire means you shoot around 89% as good as Johnny on average.

Note that you only have a 44% chance of winning the set, even when you shoot almost at Johnny's speed (55-45), and you don't even get above a 10% chance to win the set unless you split games 65-35 with him...

If you and Johnny split games 90-10, you don't even have a snow-balls chance in hell. "And them's not good odds"

spot1.jpg
 
First ball I make, I win.
Seriously I would love the opportunity to play him but there aint a spot out there that I think would tilt the set in my favor. If I only had to win one game I would feel pretty good but still the score would probably be 9-0.
As for APA handicaps, I know what you're saying as far as trying to match up the spot but I'm a border line 6-7 and I know that the spot mentioned would not be nearly enough.

Regards,
Dave
 
How does a non-pro match up with a guy that ran 13 racks of 9 ball on tough equipment and against Busta for the cash? I want 13 games on the wire going to 14 with the breaks and the orange crush if we're playing for cash. If we're playing for a coke, I'll play him heads up all day long!
 
DDKoop said:
First ball I make, I win.
Seriously I would love the opportunity to play him but there aint a spot out there that I think would tilt the set in my favor. If I only had to win one game I would feel pretty good but still the score would probably be 9-0.
As for APA handicaps, I know what you're saying as far as trying to match up the spot but I'm a border line 6-7 and I know that the spot mentioned would not be nearly enough.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Very smart!
As I said, 'I'll be bold and say 5 on the string'. I'm thinking Johnny's going to read this and say to himself 'Oh, boy!' I'm not condemning anyone. I just think that there are a lot of folks saying 4 here that would be in big trouble. Nothing wrong with confidence though.

I just know that how good you are can be deceiving. For example, I play in a non-handicapped 8-ball league of about 300 shooters. I the individual standings I ended up the season #2 with a .779 average. Makes me feel pretty good, but then I go to my teachers play and play one pocket and win one our of 30 games. I go to a pool hall and lose to two particular guys all the time playing straight up. These two are good mind you, but they are not Johnny Archer. Maybe I'll change my answer to 6.
 
IMO, the best way to play the top pro's are to get odds on your money per game. If you play sets getting games on the wire he can count on your mistakes to win games and catch up, then he can play tight to win the set. If you play by the game, he can't take any chances, he can't wait for you to make a mistake. He has to play hard every game because if he's giving you 3to1 on the money, well, ...........you do the math scenarios. I'd take 2to1 on the money, maybe even 3to2, but I wouldn't go hunting for Johnny to play this game. If he and I were the only 2 in the room, I'd play for the cheapest amount he would let me. Peace, John.
 
Rickw said:
How does a non-pro match up with a guy that ran 13 racks of 9 ball on tough equipment and against Busta for the cash?
Click to expand...

If the question were, "how would you play Bustamante", then you might answer with "How does a non-pro match up with a guy who BEAT a guy that ran 13 racks of 9-ball for the cash?" ;)

I ran 13 balls playing straight-pool last night. :p
 
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