How good can one become??

[kollegedave]

On the youth part I think you are absolutely correct. The younger one starts the better. I would also add in a distant second...smart practice, not just hard practice. If someone's technique is completely goofy, it becomes much less likely (not impossible) for them to make improvements such that their skill level will reach that of a pro. Thus, I feel as though to play well one has to be able to make an honest evaluation of problems in their mechanics and be able to fix those.

kollegedave

Another thing that is hugely important is starting young, those early years in life (4-5 years old and up) are HUGE in getting truely awesome at a sport. A kids brain at that age is a open book, they absorb the information of angles, the muscle memory, the speed of shots, the reactions of the balls, FAR more then if you start the game in the later years like your teens. It is ALOT harder to get to the pro level from starting past 10 years old. We dont have our Tiger Woods yet, the kid that is bred to play pool from the time they are born and was playing great already at 6 or 7 years old. You have to get lucky, it takes the fluke of the kid having the natural ability that would make him one of the fast progressors if he started later in life, and then instead of letting him start later in life getting him into the game from the time he can walk. By the time the kid was 14 years old when alot of us start shooting pool and getting good the kid would already be shooting near pro level pool and running multiple racks.[/QUOTE]

 

[kollegedave]

For some reason my quote of another poster, was not marked as such. The portion below my handle is a quote from (Celtic I believe) someone earlier in the thread.

kollegedave

 

[kollegedave]

Is perfection attainable? Well, in pool (and this is what makes it beautiful in my opinion) perfection is attainable by a large number of players for a short time...no one, not even Efren, can beat you in a game of nine ball if you break and run out. You were perfect for that game. Further perfection is attainable by great players for longer periods of time. I know this, because I have seen Ronnie Alcono play nine ball. That afternoon, Alcono could have given Zeus the last three.

kollegedave

You think a person who spends the majority of their free time in a poolroom is equipped to answer that question? Seriously, there is only one ceiling: Perfection. Is it attainable? That's anybody's guess.

Why do some go pro and others don't? That's a life question. Everyone has their own answer to that.


Jude M. Rosenstock

 

[Bobby]

Then please explain why Ralph Soquet never practices (this is per a conversation I had with Tony Robles) and only plays once a week in local tournaments, yet he still shoots great pool.

I will give you a hint. He supposedly is the biggest mind guru in billiards today. In other words he studies the mental side of pool (and anything) more so than you or I could ever imagin. This again was per Tony Robles. BTW, Tony loves the mental aspects of pool and wishes that he had the time Ralph has.

Having said that, I don't see how Ralph does it. I guess it is like you said, he simply does it, but not in a manner that a normal human being could understand LOL.

I think that Ralf Souqet practiced a lot to get
to where he is, he also took lessons with Jimmy
Rempe. Now that he's at his current level he can
just play in tournies and that in itself appears
to be enough to maintain his skill. I also have
no doubt that his studies on the mind help him
immeasurably in pressure situations.
Like I said in an earlier post, I don't think
there's a limit to how good we can get, just our
minds limit us. Where there's a will there's a way.

 

[Egg McDogit]

blackjack, sounds like you put in your time and got far. I
threw "b player" out there, but what I was trying to find
out is when people hit major walls in their progress and
how they're doing with them. Do some people improve without
hitting major humps because of their talent? Do they hit
humps and get past them quicker than "less talented" people?

I was coming up pretty quick, but my progress slowed down a
lot in the last year. I run a rack here and there, but can't
seem to get to the point where I'm putting racks together
on a consistent basis. It's been frustrating taking baby
steps, but I'm determined to keep at it. I liked your post
because it's a reminder that people work hard to get where
they are in this game - and it's not easy. Gotta have heart

peace
-Egg

 

[wayne]

Uh huh. You have been playing for a total of 9 years after starting at 45 years old, you rarely practice (and practice includes playing tournaments and gambling BTW, shooting pool is practice) and yet you are near pro level with no natural talent to boot. I am sorry I dont buy it. If you truely are near pro level after 9 years starting the game at 45 and never practicing you have a natural affinity for the game whether you want to believe it or not. I also think your "rarely practicing" statement is not taking into account a ton of pool you play. You may not do drills or sit and play by yourself but getting into gambling sessions and playing in tournaments against other top players is practice, it is some of the best practice you can do.

Well, I guess you re-defined practice for me, I always seperate the two (practice and competing) but if you want to include competition then I do a lot of that. I agree I have an affinity for the game but I don't think that makes me a natural talent since I have to work very hard at every aspect of the game paying very close attention to small details to overcome my many shortcomings.

(Hey, I see you are in Canada, when and where are the Canadian championship this year, I may be heading up there and would like to take a shot at it).

Wayne

 

[Mr441]

the truth lies somewhere in between but closer to "pure talent" that seperates the pros from everyone else.

pros are not great because they practice, pros practice because they are great. they practice to hone what they already have. playing, practicing,,,,,it's like breathing to them. they simply DO.

some players love to play,,,,pros HAVE to play. it is their blessing, it is their curse. they are merely being what they are meant to be.

"Pros practice because they are great" ??!!! Where did you come up with that? That's ridiculous, they became great because they had immense desire.

There's not a lot of innate ability involved in pool. It's all mental. The sky's the limit to how good you can get if you want to put in the time and sacrifice.

 

[Celtic]

Well, I guess you re-defined practice for me, I always seperate the two (practice and competing) but if you want to include competition then I do a lot of that. I agree I have an affinity for the game but I don't think that makes me a natural talent since I have to work very hard at every aspect of the game paying very close attention to small details to overcome my many shortcomings.

(Hey, I see you are in Canada, when and where are the Canadian championship this year, I may be heading up there and would like to take a shot at it).

Wayne

They are always in the East, in the area of Toronto/Montreal. Le Scratch Billiards, but there are many Le Scratch and I am from the west so it is like the distance from Vegas to New York and I therefore dont know much about the scene out there, only times I played out there was in the BCA Championships and did not get any time to see the city and the whole scene was at the hotel we were playing at at that time anyhow.

Come out to the Tournament in Calgary in April, that is getting ALOT of pro level players, $10K first place and there will be lots of action and a huge calcutta ect...

 

[wahcheck]

Talent counts high

Whats your thoughts on how good any one person can become.
Do individuals have a ceiling?
Can anyone if they practice enough make it to a certain level?

What makes Pro players Pros? Is it just practice or is it something they just have?

What is it that Pros have that others that are topped out dont have?

I have read numerous times in interviews with Pros that they practice
X number of hours per day. Most of the time its high. I have been around many top players and can not ever remember seeing them practice that much.
Anyone around a top player that does practice alot and what is the practice consisting of? Anyone helping? Are they playing or shooting drills?


I know theres a lot of questions and thoughts here but someoe asked me why some players are Pro and not more. They could see Golf and some other sports because of physical skills but not pool.
Does the majority of the public think that pool can be mastered because its
not a physical sport?

I, for one, have seen some players practicing a lot and not ever really get to the high levels of a pro or even near-pro...I think that pool is like anything else in life...some people just have a talent for it and others cannot reach the level the talented one is at, no matter how much they practice...of course it's just my opinion, but when I watch somebody like Earl Strickland shoot, it just looks different to me than even the way other pros shoot..Rodney Morris is another one...that is what I consider to be real talent.

 

[mjantti]

I think if you are practising and you don't feel like you're developing, it just might be that you are blind to your new skills. I noticed it many years ago, I was playing quite a lot, playing in weekly tournaments against somewhat inferior opponents with a lot of handicap and didn't have any goals, I just played for fun of it. If I didn't feel like playing, I didn't play. Sometimes I had a break away from pool for 2 weeks or even more if I just didn't feel like playing. I though I wasn't improving at all, I wasn't breaking any of my run-out records. If I didn't have time to go to shoot a few racks, I imagined how it felt when I played last time in dead stroke or I imagined some of the hard shots I made in a tough tournament match. It was something like mental excercise and practising by visualization.

For some reason, the time when I wasn't practising hard, but just enjoying the game paid off. When I made a small comeback and practised for a major tournament, I noticed my game had matured a lot. I wasn't playing stupid shots, I wasn't rushing into shots and I was definitely missing a lot less shots. I wasn't making any records, but I wasn't making many mistakes. Maybe it was because I didn't take any pressure at all. Maybe because I was much more humble and had more respect for the game. Hard to say what caused my leap from a good player to the top of the Finnish rankings.

But, still I feel that if I play for more than 3 days running, my motivation decreases and I somehow get frustrated and need a small break, just a couple of days will do enough and I'm able to return to the table. And with some mental practise, I'm able to return to the table in almost dead stroke without any sign of hesitation. I have also been watching a lot of pool with concentrated mind. I try to picture myself at each shot like I was at the table. It's almost like practising and it really does seem to help...

Well, a sort of a long story, I hope I made some sense here.

 

[pete lafond]

I think all things that we do and how good we become are a clear reflection of our love and dedication for it. Any sport can be learned and performed quite well without secrets and teachers, they do help. I have found more with golf than billiards that the desire means more than anything else. Why? Because I really enjoyed golf when I started playing at age 23. No lessons, I just went to the driving range and hit balls. I watched as others better than I was played. My swing was home grown. Do it enough times and the body/mind will adjust over time and figure out the best swing for you - and it is much easier to correct yourself when your missing a little when self taught. Case, within 3 - 4 years I was shooting in the 70's and low 80's from the back tees and this means courses like the Blue Monster at Doral. I refused to play the white tees. Golf was a lot of fun for me, then I quit for about 10 years. Started again though shooting in the 90's and 100's from the white tees. After about my 10th time from coming back I got back to mid 80's and thats all. No drive as I had before, just playing for the hell of it. I really believe that you do not have to start as a kid, you only need the burning desire. Add some lessons if you will and you now get a jump on things. Anyone can do anything they want to if they love it and keep at it. You will know when you make a big step as things will when unexpected "Click in". I have see this in billiards players. My advice is to never look at a pro and be discouraged because he started at age 7 or something like that. I know golfers and billiards players that started at this age, and in my head I say "I wouldn't tell anyone hold old your where when you started if I were you".

You want to do it and you have the right mind? Then do it and become good at any age.

 

[bruin70]

".................

There's not a lot of innate ability involved in pool. It's all mental. The sky's the limit to how good you can get if you want to put in the time and sacrifice.

wellppp,,,THIS could go on forever. so i'll just leave you with this,,,,,,,your statement, imo, is a slap in the face of people like michael jordan, johnny archer, tiger woods, efren reyes, yo-yo ma, john coltraine, gayle sayers, rembrandt, and just about any superior talent,,,to presume that one can be like them with neverending practice. natural talent is natural talent in any given endeavor. and the "mental part" IS a defining characteristic of greatness, i agree, but it is all built on the foundation that the talent is there in the first place.

however, if this is what keeps you going, i think it's great. you have a lot to look forward to.

 

[Mr441]

wellppp,,,THIS could go on forever. so i'll just leave you with this,,,,,,,your statement, imo, is a slap in the face of people like michael jordan, johnny archer, tiger woods, efren reyes, yo-yo ma, john coltraine, gayle sayers, rembrandt, and just about any superior talent,,,to presume that one can be like them with neverending practice. natural talent is natural talent in any given endeavor. and the "mental part" IS a defining characteristic of greatness, i agree, but it is all built on the foundation that the talent is there in the first place.

however, if this is what keeps you going, i think it's great. you have a lot to look forward to.

How is it a slap in the face of those mentioned? If anything it's a compliment to their perseverance. But in my post I was speaking about POOL not basketball or fiddle playing or whatever else those people excelled at. Although I suspect the same would apply to those endeavors as well.

There's no basis for your belief about "natural ability", of course your opinions and my opinions are just that opinions.

The reason I think you can get good or even great at pool is because I personally have no "natural ability" at pool but through hard work and endless hours of practice have attained a high degree of proficiency
and that's without really dedicating myself completely to the game.



.

 

[lewdo26]

I think if you are practising and you don't feel like you're developing, it just might be that you are blind to your new skills. I noticed it many years ago, I was playing quite a lot, playing in weekly tournaments against somewhat inferior opponents with a lot of handicap and didn't have any goals, I just played for fun of it. If I didn't feel like playing, I didn't play. Sometimes I had a break away from pool for 2 weeks or even more if I just didn't feel like playing. I though I wasn't improving at all, I wasn't breaking any of my run-out records. If I didn't have time to go to shoot a few racks, I imagined how it felt when I played last time in dead stroke or I imagined some of the hard shots I made in a tough tournament match. It was something like mental excercise and practising by visualization.

For some reason, the time when I wasn't practising hard, but just enjoying the game paid off. When I made a small comeback and practised for a major tournament, I noticed my game had matured a lot. I wasn't playing stupid shots, I wasn't rushing into shots and I was definitely missing a lot less shots. I wasn't making any records, but I wasn't making many mistakes. Maybe it was because I didn't take any pressure at all. Maybe because I was much more humble and had more respect for the game. Hard to say what caused my leap from a good player to the top of the Finnish rankings.

But, still I feel that if I play for more than 3 days running, my motivation decreases and I somehow get frustrated and need a small break, just a couple of days will do enough and I'm able to return to the table. And with some mental practise, I'm able to return to the table in almost dead stroke without any sign of hesitation. I have also been watching a lot of pool with concentrated mind. I try to picture myself at each shot like I was at the table. It's almost like practising and it really does seem to help...

Well, a sort of a long story, I hope I made some sense here.

You did make lots of sense, Mikko. I sometimes beat myself up for not practicing everyday (more like 4-5 times a week), but, like you, I notice my motivation decreases a little after 2-3 days of hard practice. One day off and I return to the practice table fresh as mint. I still don't know what the solution to the motivation problem is, especially since I have *so* much more to learn. Today, for instance, I came up with about 4 drills of my own (adequate to my playing level); I was just experimenting with the balls. I didn't feel like doing drills per se. But that's because yesterday I did the same drill for 2 hours and a half without a fountain break.

As far as the evergreen question of 'how good can one become?', I don't even bother to think about it. I simply know that I can't go without this game for long, and that is my motivation! But I'd have to agree with the guys that mention natural ability as the primary force; practicing being fruitful mostly in already-fertile ground. Who knows, poolplaying talent might have to do with very concrete things, like an individual's neurological perception of space, or something or other. The idea that practice and no talent can take you anywhere you'll dare to go is good as motivational speech, but rather unrealistic.

 

[Hal]

I have become as good of a pool player as my wife will let me....

 

[frankncali]

Thanks for all the views.

I lie somewhere in the middle of all of these posts.

I do believe in natural ability but I dont think it will get you to the PRO level.
It will get you very quickly up to being an upper B or low A player. IMHO

When I started I was around 17 years old. I had seen a pool table and hit a ball a couple times but not really played. First game ever was 9ball and I ran
6 balls and out. It was a very long night after that lucky streak but I wa hooked.
I beat the balls for a while but never got much better only playing every now and then. Then one day I decided if I was going to play I should do it right.
From then on I got better at a very rapid rate. I was around 20 and was
around very good pool all the time. That helped and I believe is crucial to getting better. If you never know what is right or even different options
you can not get better.

I also believe that most of us that play just simply play and hope to get better. Once reaching a certain level (upper B maybe) then you have to make effort to get better. I also have found that the better you get its easier to maintain that level than it is to improve to the next. Maybe thats
why Souquet does not have to practice that much to stay level.

I dont believe that without natural ability a person can become a PRO level player. Theres natural skill involved in timing and coordination. Great pool
players seem to have a good natural flow. Stroke IMO is a natural skill and is almost impossible to learn.
PLayers in older era did not have fast cloth and great equipment. Being a natural player with a great natural stroke set them apart. Now with the
newer cloth and the better equipment I think some players today would not have the goods to compete in the older days. Other guys from today would
be able to. IMO natural ability would be the factor that separates the two
groups.

I like what Blackjack writes alot of times but its hard to do. Theres no secret
and he makes no bones about that.

I have wondered what PROs did to reach that level and if practicing drills and
setups for hours was part of it or if it was just playing time.

 

[frankncali]

Your post below IMO is true.
I remember the first time I met a friend of mine. He is a well known player from the NE. I met him in NC at a tournament in the early 90s or mid 90s.
He was playing Tony Ellin to see who would face Archer in the Finals.
Ellin was killing him. The player was shook at the situation. He spoke to a friend of mine telling him he could not believe he was playing Tony Ellin and that he was not in his league. My buddy tells him he better play his game ot
Ellin is going to win it. The player cut in a very nice shot and ran out and proceeded to win the set.
In the Finals he was a wreck and lost. He kept saying how he could not believe he was in the finals in the tournament playing Johnny Archer. It got him. Afterwards a guy told him that he needed to believe in himself and
KNOW THAT HE WAS ON THAT LEVEL. From then on his game has been
much better.
He was on the road then and many people said his game jumped from being on the road but I believe it was from the confidence he gained that day.
He truely felt like he could play him those guys. He still plays on that level and is a force. Sometimes not the nicest guy in the world but he is a very good pool player whose game jumped a ton with confidence.

This post made me start thinking about my progression as a player. I have said it many times that I played some of my best pool on the road as opposed to playing tournaments. I spent many years scratching my head wondering why I couldn't break through at the top level. I played at their level, but there was something missing, that special ingredient, and it can best be described as knowing that you belong there. If there is any doubt in your mind at any level, in any tournament final as to whether or not you belong there, then you don't. I spent many years trying and scraping my way through tournaments before I realized that I had a gift for teaching this game. There was time when I was unaware that I had the ability to teach and pass along the knowledge that I had. After that, it took a long time for me to accept my place in the pool world.

Not all of us can be Efren Reyes, not all of us can be Allison Fisher, not all of us can run tournaments like Jay Helfert, Scott Smith, or Steve Tipton. Not all of us are George Balabushka or Gus Szamboti. It does not mean that the quality of our work is any less, or means less. We all love this game and it takes all of us to make it great. It takes all of us to give it variety. If you truly love this game and there is a fire that burns in your heart and soul, do something every day to keep that fire strong. If that fire warms your heart, then it won't matter what level you play at, or what others think of your abilities, your accomplishments, or lack of accomplishments. All that will matter is your love for the game.

I know now that everything I experienced on the road as a player was merely preparing me for what I am doing now. I get more joy from teaching, writing, and coaching than I ever did as a player. Today I enjoy being an encourager, and I do not take that role lightly. In fact, I thank God for this road I have traveled. I think that if I ever had the success of an Efren Reyes or Johnny Archer, it would have been a great disservice to players I have helped over the years. When you understand how that works in the Universe, you also understand that all of your disappointments and setbacks are really God's way of pointing you back on the road He wants you to travel.

 

[frankncali]

Why do you feel you had no natural talent and in what ways?

Also at what level do you feel you are at now? Do you feel you can be as good as a PRO level player or even the top of the PROs like Archer, Mika
Earl or Efren?

If not then what makes them better than the other PROs.

There's no basis for your belief about "natural ability", of course your opinions and my opinions are just that opinions.

The reason I think you can get good or even great at pool is because I personally have no "natural ability" at pool but through hard work and endless hours of practice have attained a high degree of proficiency
and that's without really dedicating myself completely to the game.



.

 

[DaveK]

There's no basis for your belief about "natural ability", of course your opinions and my opinions are just that opinions.
.

Perhaps we differ on our understanding of 'natural ability', but there certainly are differences in the physical capabilities when comparing people. Top athletes can more quickly get to a proficiency level in a new game/sport because they are more capable generally. No doubt mental capabilities such as visualization and concentration play a part too. So, I think that people with tremendous motor and mental skills can excel in a sport (given enough motivation), but those without are relegated to poor play no matter how much they care and try. This is of course not a black and white scenario, rather a full spectrum. By my description 'natural talent' is not specific to pool, although there is likely an optimal mix of talents to excel in pool which would be different to the optimal mix for another sportgame. Guys like MJ, Tiger, Wayne, and Earl have talents and ambition that mortals like myself wish for ...

Of course, just my opinion, but I think there is some science in this ...

Dave

 

[shakes]

wellppp,,,THIS could go on forever. so i'll just leave you with this,,,,,,,your statement, imo, is a slap in the face of people like michael jordan, johnny archer, tiger woods, efren reyes, yo-yo ma, john coltraine, gayle sayers, rembrandt, and just about any superior talent,,,to presume that one can be like them with neverending practice. natural talent is natural talent in any given endeavor. and the "mental part" IS a defining characteristic of greatness, i agree, but it is all built on the foundation that the talent is there in the first place.


however, if this is what keeps you going, i think it's great. you have a lot to look forward to.

For the most part, I try to stay in the shadows watching, occasionally asking a question. But I think that your statement is a slap in the face of the individuals you mentioned as well as a couple of other basketball greats like Reggie Miller, and Larry Bird. Jordan was cut from his high school team early in his career (which made him work 10X harder), and Reggie Miller is one of the best examples of hard work overcoming lack of physical prowess. Larry Bird had one of the worst shooting forms the NBA has ever seen and if you ever watch him in the classic games, you could barely slip a piece of notebook paper under his feet when he jumped. ALL of these greats put in more time practicing than anybody else in the game.

For my two cents as to how good one can become, there are two things that are necessary to become great at pool. Eyes (you can't get around poor vision, it's just not possible) and heart. If you have these two things, then you'll do whatever you have to do to get where you want to go. Some will get there faster (the natural talents), but if one recognizes that they are limited in correcting their own habits, they can get a coach to get them past it. Again, it takes some longer than others, but anyone can be the best, until they meet someone better. And there will always be someone better.

::exits from his soap box, stage left::