Snapshot9 said:
this had nothing to do with the original posters comments.........AT ALL.
thanks
VAP
How important are aiming methods really?
- Thread starter JLW
- Start date
this had nothing to do with the original posters comments.........AT ALL.
thanks
VAP
vapoolplayer said:i've taken lessons from quite a few pro players...........and ALL of them have talke about how they aim. most of the time they talk about this without even being asked.
probably about 50 percent of their shots or more, they have seen a million times, and already know exactly what to do. i would call this "feel". they are still using a system to aim, its just not a concious effort.
now the rest of the shots are either shots that a difficult cuts or shots that become more complicated because they must spin the ball. this is when they start thinking and aiming subconciously.
its been my experience, that most players that can run more than a couple racks, use more than once aiming system. they have one system that they use for the majority of there shots. then they have a few other ones for different shots..........just because some shots are easier to see a certain way.
i personally use about 3. i can't remember what system i used to learn how to pocket basic shots.........now i use "feel" for those (more than likely i used the ghost ball)
then i have a way i look at tough cuts and shots that need sidespin.
and i also have a way that i aim combination shots.
whether or not i'm a "good" player is up for debate........but the original poster indicated that he thought he was a "good" player. so i'll ask him to compare his figures to mine.
5 racks in 9 ball.
3 racks in 8 ball.
58 in 14:1 (set that just a few days ago, playing more straight now finally)
several 80's in snooker.
so the original poster can take those numbers and figure out for himself if he thinks i'm a "good" player or not and whether to take this post with any seriousness or not.
i consider myself and "developing" player, and if his numbers can't beat those, then he needs to start "aiming"...........
VAP
I TOTALLY agree with everything VAP said. All of the pro's I have queried agree that aiming is important (though they all do it almost instantaneously and without much thought), and many have multiple methods depending on the type of shot.
drivermaker
Banned
vapoolplayer said:
Ooooohhh noooooo.....I just saw a huge cloud of dust rising in the sky and going over the horizon. It was an horse at full gallop and I could barely see the rider...except for what he was wearing on his head. It didn't look like a cowboy hat....it actually kinda reminded me of one of those things guys wear on a boat....
drivermaker said:Ooooohhh noooooo.....I just saw a huge cloud of dust rising in the sky and going over the horizon. It was an horse at full gallop and I could barely see the rider...except for what he was wearing on his head. It didn't look like a cowboy hat....it actually kinda reminded me of one of those things guys wear on a boat....
I know what you're really thinking .... "there goes my opportunity for a big $10 score"
Dave
drivermaker
Banned
DaveK said:I know what you're really thinking .... "there goes my opportunity for a big $10 score"
Dave
No...it's my $25 score that we already have set up. (and VAP's $100) (and anything else that I could have worked between now and then)
Whoa. Apparently many people on this board have misinterpreted the intention of my post. I never said anywhere in my original post that I do not aim. Perhaps I was not clear enough. Obviously, I always aim. I just do not consciously use ghost balls, rail road tracks, lights, or any other system. I aim, as vapoolplayer himself said, more by feel. In fact, vapoolplayer makes my point for me when he says of the pros that "probably about 50 percent of their shots or more, they have seen a million times, and already know exactly what to do. i would call this "feel". they are still using a system to aim, its just not a concious effort." That was exactly the point of my original post. If you pocket enough balls, you begin to play more by feel and begin to see where to aim without having to utilize an "aiming method" on every shot. Yes, there are shots that require more deliberation and are more difficult to pocket- such as combination shots or shots requiring extreme spin. But, my post was really only addressing basic cut shots. My original post was really about how much discussion there is on this board about "aiming methods" when my experience has been that anyone above a beginner level doesn't really consciously use "aiming methods" on many shots. They aim more by feel.
Sadly, once again people have decided to make a pissing contest out of an effort to have open, honest discussion about pool. I have seen this happen many times on this board, and it is one of the reasons I have not posted many comments. Based on what I have seen here, this will probably be my last. Vapoolplayer and Flickit you can have the board.
Sadly, once again people have decided to make a pissing contest out of an effort to have open, honest discussion about pool. I have seen this happen many times on this board, and it is one of the reasons I have not posted many comments. Based on what I have seen here, this will probably be my last. Vapoolplayer and Flickit you can have the board.
drivermaker
Banned
DaveK said:
Your Honor...I plead innocent to all of the charges being brought against me by Mr. "K".
drivermaker
Banned
JLW said:
You have it all wrong JLW...most on here don't like having pissing contests about various subjects such as this one on aiming. And I don't think anyone here today was urinating much at all. I'd have to say it's more like trying to "Bury" someone as deep as you can when they're off base about a subject.
The deeper someone can be placed under ground and covered with dirt is where the real fun comes in. Only the strong survive...bye-bye.......
JLW said:
Wow! Quite sensitive...
You start off this whole thread with a message that is anti aiming threads. As you stated, many threads have been dedicated to aiming techniques. Your original post was contrary to that whole concept of aiming threads.
Thus, I put forth a post contrary to your post, which simply stated that there are levels to everything (aiming included). I even indirectly suggested that your aiming could probably use some improving. Anything that helps someone get to the next level is welcome for discussion.
Then you say that you wanted debate on the issue, but when 1 or 2 points are raised contrary to your opinion, now you just crumble and fall off. Wouldn't recommend asking for open and honest discussion, if you're gonna get mad and put your tail between your legs, when you don't like someone else's honesty. Do you really expect everyone to agree with you... honestly?
You say that aiming should simply come naturally.
And to some degree that's true. There's no substitute for experience.
So instead of arguing against you this time... I expand out your comment to other aspects of the game besides just aiming. What you're saying about natural abilities, also applies in those other areas as well. So???
That post had nothing contradictory to your comment about aiming threads.
Yet, you're bent outta shape about it anyway...
Rise up, my boy, and feel free to defend and make your point. Are 1 or 2 posts in opposition all it takes for you to give up?
Maybe I'll agree with DriverMaker. There hasn't been much of a pissing contest at all on this. Maybe instead, like he said you just got buried for being so far off based. The only pissing needed, will be on the grave.
FLICKit said:Wow! Quite sensitive...
You start off this whole thread with a message that is anti aiming threads. As you stated, many threads have been dedicated to aiming techniques. Your original post was contrary to that whole concept of aiming threads.
Thus, I put forth a post contrary to your post, which simply stated that there are levels to everything (aiming included). I even indirectly suggested that your aiming could probably use some improving. Anything that helps someone get to the next level is welcome for discussion.
Then you say that you wanted debate on the issue, but when 1 or 2 points are raised contrary to your opinion, now you just crumble and fall off. Wouldn't recommend asking for open and honest discussion, if you're gonna get mad and put your tail between your legs, when you don't like someone else's honesty. Do you really expect everyone to agree with you... honestly?
You say that aiming should simply come naturally.
And to some degree that's true. There's no substitute for experience.
So instead of arguing against you this time... I expand out your comment to other aspects of the game besides just aiming. What you're saying about natural abilities, also applies in those other areas as well. So???
That post had nothing contradictory to your comment about aiming threads.
Yet, you're bent outta shape about it anyway...
Rise up, my boy, and feel free to defend and make your point. Are 1 or 2 posts in opposition all it takes for you to give up?
Maybe I'll agree with DriverMaker. There hasn't been much of a pissing contest at all on this. Maybe instead, like he said you just got buried for being so far off based. The only pissing needed, will be on the grave.
........OK. This is the problem. You did not actually read and respond to what I wrote. Apparently, you merely glanced at it and then used it as an excuse to lecture me about how much I have to learn about pool and how I don't aim nearly as well I as I seem to think. First of all, my original post was not anti aiming threads. As I've said before, I aim on every shot. The post was only to raise the idea of aiming becoming more second nature over time. Most of the people who post on this board appear to be above average players. Therefore, I was curious as to why there are so many posts about something that I would think is second nature to most players. IMO, running lots of balls and working on proper grip, stance, stroke and so forth would benefit players at this level more than talking about ghost balls and the like. If you disagree, let's discuss why.
Secondly, you did not indirectly suggest anything. I found the tone of your reply to be unnecessarily sarcastic. And the comments were, in my opinion, meant to belittle me and my original post (which you obviously did not read very carefully). Perhaps I was wrong. If I was, I apologize. And no, I do not expect everyone to agree with me. I do, however, expect to be responded to with some degree of civility. I did not begin this thread with the intent of starting an argument with anyone.
Next, yes I do want debate on the subject of aiming techniques. Do you still use ghost balls to aim? Or is it more of a feel thing? What I got instead was "You're not as good as you think you are" and "I can play better than you" type responses. Would you call this open and honest discussion?
Nowhere in any of my posts have I said that aiming should come naturally. I do believe that aiming methods are very important in learning to play pool. I have used them quite a bit. The point of the original post was that I don't really think advanced players are using the ghost ball (or whatever method) on most shots. I think they are playing more by feel.
I really do not have any desire to argue ad ifinitum about this. Please reread my original post. The title is not "How important is aiming really?" It is not anti aiming. It does not state that aiming should come naturally. It was merely an innocent effort to have some debate about pool. Not about who can get in the best put down.
And don't worry my boy, I won't leave this board because of you.
drivermaker
Banned
JLW said:
In my case I don't use ghost balls to aim and never did in my entire life, which is 44 years of some heavy duty pool playing. But I do use ways of lining up the CB to OB or my cue to the OB which falls under the classification of an aiming system. And I do it on all shots. It is ALSO a feel thing because speed has a lot to do with how an OB will cut as well as throw. So ALL of it is involved.
I look at it like this...if I'm shooting a rifle to hit a very small target from various distances, would I be better off using the front and rear sight on the barrel to line it up...or should I just shoot from the hip like the old TV Western, "The Rifleman" and just fire away.
So...if YOU aim as you say...what do you do? What do you see? What helps you to align that shot to make it from all different angles?
drivermaker said:
Drivemaker,
I guess I really should have been more specific about what I considered "aiming techniques" when I started this thread. I NEVER meant to imply that I don't aim or that others shouldn't try to aim. Of course, everyone aims. And, I guess, technically that means everyone has some "system". It's just a matter of how they do it. When I referred to aiming systems or methods, I was really talking about ghost ball techniques, rail road track techniques, a section system, light reflection techniques, and so on. I have always just assumed that intermediate and above players don't really utilize these methods very often except on very tough shots. I've always felt that after pocketing a certain number of balls in his/her life, a person develops a sense of feel about where to aim and doesn't utilize these technical systems much. Do others find that to be the case, or do they disagree? That's what got me to thinking about all the threads I've seen on this board discussing these "aiming techniques". I've always thought that the best thing you can do for your aim is to work on your fundamentals and pocket lots of balls. When I've done that, my aim has always felt like second nature to me.
As far as how I aim, the most important part for me is getting down on the shot with my body, arm and eyes aligned correctly and making a straight stroke. Also, I make a concentrated effort to hit the CB exactly where I intend to hit it-center ball, high, low, whatever. When I look at the shot, I don't use ghost balls or any other such "technique". I look at the shot and just know where I need to hit the OB. Call it feel or being in stroke, or whatever. But if I am playing enough pool and pocketing enough balls, I get to the point where I can determine the point of aim pretty easily just by looking at the shot. Hope that answers your question and clears up any confusion about my feelings on aiming.
Thanks for your input.
Hi JLWJLW said:
Im sure I will get blasted for this, but I agree with what you are saying. I also feel that if a person spends enough time practicing, he/she will be able to pocket balls consistently without a particular aiming method. In my opinion, I believe that if I miss a shot, is usually goes back to a poor bridge, eye shift, quick stroke, or any of the other numerous things that I must think about on a daily basis...lol. Looking at a shot and knowing where to strike the object ball in relationship to the cue ball is considered "feel" (at least in my booK) and I don't believe there is an "aiming system" in the world as strong as that. Of course I may be wrong......and I'm sure someone here will be glad to point that out.....lol.
Christyd
BTW...what is the railroad technique? (just in case I'm wrong).......
christyd said:
just because some tells themselves, i'm not gonna conciously use any aiming method does not mean they don't.
humans are creatures of habit......the mind doesn't work in just any random way.........you can hit a million balls and your mind is going to figure out a way to aim for each shot.........one shot might be the ghost ball, another you might say.....hey for this shot i aim my tip here........etc etc........it all boils down to using an "aiming method"
to answer the original posts question......are aiming methods that important? they are as important as any other aspect of the game.
VAP
drivermaker
Banned
christyd said:Looking at a shot and knowing where to strike the object ball in relationship to the cue ball is considered "feel" (at least in my booK) and I don't believe there is an "aiming system" in the world as strong as that. Of course I may be wrong......and I'm sure someone here will be glad to point that out.....lol.
Christyd
BTW...what is the railroad technique? (just in case I'm wrong).......
Christy sez: "Looking at a shot and knowing where to strike the object ball in relationship to the cue ball is considered 'feel' (at least in my book)."
I agree to a point but I guess I basically disagree. You consider it to be "feel" now, but it's a system or method still at work on a subconscious level that you learned since you first started playing up to the point where you just didn't have to think of it very much. Maybe you started out aiming with a line from the pocket through the CB and visualized a contact point....maybe you saw a section or segment on the OB and knew that it needed to be struck there with an equal portion of the CB....maybe you aimed your shaft, ferrule, and tip at a certain point (and probably still do) on the OB, maybe you overlapped the CB on the OB like an eclipse of the moon for a half ball hit....those are all aiming systems.
In the Feb. issue of Billiards Digest, Mike Sigel had an article specifically on aiming. I would have to think if aiming isn't important and no longer existed at a certain point in one's playing career, there would be no need for an article. However, this is what he said: "It is also a good idea to learn to see the difference between the section of the cue ball that you are cueing and the section that will be hitting your object ball. The more closely you can learn to observe this, the easier it would be to see the best line of aim".
He then said, "If all of this doesn't help, then I suggest you fly to Orlando and take a lesson from me personally. Aiming is more difficult to explain on paper than any other aspect of pool".
In other words, what Sigel is promoting is the "Equal and Opposite" aiming system. So whether you do it consciously or at some point subconsciously, you're still doing it. YOU HAVE TO, otherwise you'd just be a ball blaster.
And Christy, I don't know how good you play now and I don't care, there are a couple of things I could show you about aiming which would absolutely increase your ball potting % over and above what you've ever done in your life. But if you wish to believe otherwise, well...so be it.
As far as the railroad technique....that's what happened to LilJohn. Not only did he get railroaded, but be took it in the caboose.
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drivermaker said:
Ahem!
Could you post these interviews with Efren and Mosconi where they talk about their "aiming systems"?
I'll just bet you can't.
drivermaker said:Christy sez: "Looking at a shot and knowing where to strike the object ball in relationship to the cue ball is considered 'feel' (at least in my book)."
I agree to a point but I guess I basically disagree. You consider it to be "feel" now, but it's a system or method still at work on a subconscious level that you learned since you first started playing up to the point where you just didn't have to think of it very much. Maybe you started out aiming with a line from the pocket through the CB and visualized a contact point....maybe you saw a section or segment on the OB and knew that it needed to be struck there with an equal portion of the CB....maybe you aimed your shaft, ferrule, and tip at a certain point (and probably still do) on the OB, maybe you overlapped the CB on the OB like an eclipse of the moon for a half ball hit....those are all aiming systems.
All aiming systems boil down to is "I put the white ball here, and the other ball goes there". Aiming systems are only ways to explain this so someone can understand it.
In the Feb. issue of Billiards Digest, Mike Sigel had an article specifically on aiming. I would have to think if aiming isn't important and no longer existed at a certain point in one's playing career, there would be no need for an article. However, this is what he said: "It is also a good idea to learn to see the difference between the section of the cue ball that you are cueing and the section that will be hitting your object ball. The more closely you can learn to observe this, the easier it would be to see the best line of aim".
He then said, "If all of this doesn't help, then I suggest you fly to Orlando and take a lesson from me personally. Aiming is more difficult to explain on paper than any other aspect of pool".
In other words, what Sigel is promoting is the "Equal and Opposite" aiming system. So whether you do it consciously or at some point subconsciously, you're still doing it. YOU HAVE TO, otherwise you'd just be a ball blaster.
What Sigel is promoting is his overpriced lessons. Pay for an hour, but you leave in a half hour because you get tired of hearing him talk about himself.
And Christy, I don't know how good you play now and I don't care, there are a couple of things I could show you about aiming which would absolutely increase your ball potting % over and above what you've ever done in your life. But if you wish to believe otherwise, well...so be it.
You've always talked like the great player/teacher. But who has ever seen you play?
As far as the railroad technique....that's what happened to LilJohn. Not only did he get railroaded, but be took it in the caboose.
..........
hmmmm, i'm sensing this thread is about to get rocking as soon as DM is back at the computer.......
VAP
VAP