How important are aiming methods really?

[woody_968]

Good question, but my best guess is that age and health might play a role in that now. The other is he just doesn't NEED the money nor the hassles of everything that goes with producing, protecting rights, distributing, etc.

If age and health are starting to play a role, I sure hope he gets his information out there to some people that can pass it along. If its really that good Id hate to think no one else would be helped by his method when he no longer has the health or desire to explain it.

 

[JLW]

There has been some great debate on this thread regarding aim. And it got me thinking of another question related to my original post. When someone misses a shot, what do you think is the main culprit? Is it due to aiming at the wrong part of the OB? Or is it something like poor body alignment, lack of concentration, miscueing (includes any sort of unintentional spin put on the CB), rushing the shot, faulty stroking, raising up on the shot, not being relaxed, etc.....? What do you guys (and gals) think?

 

[vapoolplayer]

There has been some great debate on this thread regarding aim. And it got me thinking of another question related to my original post. When someone misses a shot, what do you think is the main culprit? Is it due to aiming at the wrong part of the OB? Or is it something like poor body alignment, lack of concentration, miscueing (includes any sort of unintentional spin put on the CB), rushing the shot, faulty stroking, raising up on the shot, not being relaxed, etc.....? What do you guys (and gals) think?

without going into to much detail, since i didn't write it..........joe tucker makes an interesting point in the book that comes with his aiming training balls.

people that shoot off "feel" that haven't developed the right feels for a shot are using the wrong part of the cue ball...........basically sending the wrong part of the cue ball to the right part of the object ball.........if that makes sense.

joe would explain it better.........sorry if i butchered it too much joe.......just summing it up quick.

thanks

VAP

 

[Joe T]

without going into to much detail, since i didn't write it..........joe tucker makes an interesting point in the book that comes with his aiming training balls.

people that shoot off "feel" that haven't developed the right feels for a shot are using the wrong part of the cue ball...........basically sending the wrong part of the cue ball to the right part of the object ball.........if that makes sense.

joe would explain it better.........sorry if i butchered it too much joe.......just summing it up quick.

thanks

VAP

Your on the right track VAP,
Anyone can teach anyone how to walk up an identify an object balls contact point but I'll bet 99% of us were never taught to pick out the exact spot on the front of the cue ball (the part of the shot that does the actual work) and that's pretty much what mymethod is based on, improving your perception of the front of the cue ball.

 

[JLW]

Your on the right track VAP,
Anyone can teach anyone how to walk up an identify an object balls contact point but I'll bet 99% of us were never taught to pick out the exact spot on the front of the cue ball (the part of the shot that does the actual work) and that's pretty much what mymethod is based on, improving your perception of the front of the cue ball.

Joe-

This method sounds very similar to the Parallel Aiming method. You determine a contact point on the CB and then simply make it hit the OB. Is this what you're talking about?

 

[bud green]

14 pages of discussion about aiming (well, two about aiming and twelve pages of unrelated material) and no one has mentioned that Tom Shaw has a 576 page book out on aiming systems. Haven't read it all but it covers a lot of the current theories.

I encourage fellow AZbilliard members to continually harass DM and Bazooka until they actually match up. If I still lived in Athens(Georgia), I'd consider driving to ATL (80 miles) just to see them play and talk shit to each other. I love watching people who don't like each other play a match- the tension, eyes filled with hate, occasional snapping of cues...beautiful.

Bazooka- what is the most you'll play him for? Your cash flow is low and 100 is too high but what will you play for? Maybe you guys can just play for 40-50/set to get this settled.

 

[drivermaker]

14 pages of discussion about aiming (well, two about aiming and twelve pages of unrelated material) and no one has mentioned that Tom Shaw has a 576 page book out on aiming systems. Haven't read it all but it covers a lot of the current theories.

Maybe you guys can just play for 40-50/set to get this settled.

Tom Shaw? Do you mean Todd Leveck?

40-50 a set? Get serious! I was already serious with what I posted and NOTHING needs to be settled or proven between us. I don't like the guy and would prefer not being around him or just busting him immediately. I KNOW what his speed is from someone that's seen him play. As I said, he's not a bad player at all. actually pretty decent. He'd probably kick your butt and a lot more people on here. Knowing what I know, I could have said $5k a set and had no worries, but I went low.

The only thing that needs to be settled has ALREADY been settled on this thread. And that is...Bazooka is an ignoramus when it comes to aiming systems, the different ways that a shot can be visualized, how to describe it to someone else, and the importance of it in the whole scheme of things when playing.

Since $40-$50 a set sounds so good, why don't YOU match up with him. I'll take Joe. Hell, maybe I'd even consider backing him if I knew he wasn't going to dump just to screw over me.

 

[randyg]

Joe-

The Robert Byrne quote is from a book that was just re-issued in 1998. And, as you may be aware, Robert Byrne is a Hall of Fame teacher.

Correction: Mr. Bryne is a BCA HOF Author....SPF-randyg

 

[Rickw]

I haven't been on this board for a while. I started catching up on this thread and just can't believe people are getting so worked up over a board. I mean, most of the people on this board don't personally know one another other than what people type on this forum and to "hate" someone because of a few typed words is a little much isn't it? WTF! If someone has a different opinion on how to aim a shot, who gives a big shit? You can have the best cue made, have the best tip on God's green earth and the best aiming system ever devised and I'll bet you big money that most of the people on this board won't beat Efren who has a shitty crooked house cue.

Seems like people are trying to find "the big secret" to playing pool. Personally, after you've practiced and hit a few thousand balls, it just comes down to feel. When you get into the zone, you're not using an aiming method because you don't question whether the ball is going to go in or not because you "know" it is going to go in.

 

[drivermaker]

I haven't been on this board for a while. I started catching up on this thread and just can't believe people are getting so worked up over a board. I mean, most of the people on this board don't personally know one another other than what people type on this forum and to "hate" someone because of a few typed words is a little much isn't it? WTF! If someone has a different opinion on how to aim a shot, who gives a big shit? You can have the best cue made, have the best tip on God's green earth and the best aiming system ever devised and I'll bet you big money that most of the people on this board won't beat Efren who has a shitty crooked house cue.

Seems like people are trying to find "the big secret" to playing pool. Personally, after you've practiced and hit a few thousand balls, it just comes down to feel. When you get into the zone, you're not using an aiming method because you don't question whether the ball is going to go in or not because you "know" it is going to go in.

Where did "hate" come into the picture and when was it ever mentioned Rick. Now YOU'RE bringing in a completely new element to stir the pot even further. Maybe you should have stayed away or just said nothing on this particular thread. Bazooka Joe and I have history that goes back a fairly long time. If if makes you feel or sleep better, neither one of us has any "love lost between us" and I fully expect some more flaming down the road.

And nobody said that aiming was "the big secret" to playing pool. Although, who knows....maybe it is and we're ALL overlooking it. And Rick, maybe YOU don't have enough knowledge either about all the different ways to see or align a shot before pulling the trigger and that's why you think it's just all feel.
Or maybe you don't even know what the hell you're doing while doing it. Did you ever think of that? And who ever talked about beating Efren, even though Efren DOES have an aiming method, or don't you believe that?

 

[vapoolplayer]

Seems like people are trying to find "the big secret" to playing pool. Personally, after you've practiced and hit a few thousand balls, it just comes down to feel. When you get into the zone, you're not using an aiming method because you don't question whether the ball is going to go in or not because you "know" it is going to go in.

i agree there is no big secret. actually.......wait......there is a secret........PRACTICE (perfect practice......before anyone gets technical on me)

but i really hate when people go back to saying that after you hit a few thousand balls it just come naturally...........

first......it takes quite a few more than just a "few thousand" and second.......you have to start somewhere. everyone starts with some kind of system or visualization technique.

and yes, you do use this when you're in the zone........you just don't think about it conciously.......just like you use that perfect stroke that you practiced for so long.

and aiming system is just like learning to stroke. you didn't just figure that stroke out by hitting a thousand balls.........you figured it out from concious practice day in and day out..........

now when it comes time to play, you still use that perfect stroke you practiced, you just don't think about it........

its the same way with aiming systems. you practiced and practiced it..........so when it comes time to play, you're still using it, you're just not conciously thinking about it.

so i disagree with your assumption that when you're in the zone you don't use a system rick........you do use it.........its just an unconcious thought.

go read johnny archer's website............he says that when he plays he steps back about 4 feet fromt he table, and imagines parrellel lines.........that would qualify as a system.........

i've had countless conversations with great players, and plenty of lessons from great players.............and ALL of them have some sort of system that they use......actually ALL of them use a few ways to visualize depending on the shot at hand.

even when you use "feel" your mind is using a system that you used at the practice table.

thanks

VAP

 

[JLW]

Correction: Mr. Bryne is a BCA HOF Author....SPF-randyg

Actually, if you really want to get technical, he was elected to the Hall of Fame in the Meritorious Service category. And, according to the BCA HOF listing, Robert Byrne "is the most prolific billiard writer in history." So what do you think he did that the BCA found worthy of merit? He taught pool- sometimes through books, sometimes through videos, and sometimes even in person. But his contribution to the pool world has been primarily as a teacher of the game.

 

[randyg]

JLW. Thanks, nice post...randyg

 

[Rickw]

Where did "hate" come into the picture and when was it ever mentioned Rick. Now YOU'RE bringing in a completely new element to stir the pot even further. Maybe you should have stayed away or just said nothing on this particular thread. Bazooka Joe and I have history that goes back a fairly long time. If if makes you feel or sleep better, neither one of us has any "love lost between us" and I fully expect some more flaming down the road.

And nobody said that aiming was "the big secret" to playing pool. Although, who knows....maybe it is and we're ALL overlooking it. And Rick, maybe YOU don't have enough knowledge either about all the different ways to see or align a shot before pulling the trigger and that's why you think it's just all feel.
Or maybe you don't even know what the hell you're doing while doing it. Did you ever think of that? And who ever talked about beating Efren, even though Efren DOES have an aiming method, or don't you believe that?

Hey, you know what DM, you got me. I went back over the thread again and the word "hate" was never mentioned in any of the posts. You have my humble apology for that error. You have to admit there is some pretty negative stuff going on here though right? I mean, it sounds like you do have some issues with the guy and it just sounds pretty ugly is all. All I'm trying to suggest here is to maybe refrain a little from the personal attacks because you never know what kind of person is sitting in at their pc reading this stuff.

As for the real topic of this thread, I just feel sometimes that there is too much emphasis placed on special types of equipment, techniques and other gimmicks that lends to the belief that there is some "secret" to playing better pool. I understand that it is important for beginners to get on the right track and much of the information dispensed on this board could certainly help them out. I only wished something like this was available to me when I started playing. However, I believe it takes a Hell of a lot of practice and matching up to really improve your game. And, I do think the "feel" factor is huge in this game. Aiming methods are great to help form a base or foundation and as you play, I believe you will rely more and more on your "feel" and less on some of these techniques (of course you refer back to them from time to time when a tough shot comes up).

I read somewhere, probably BD, that they asked bank pool experts what system they use most and I believe all of them said that they use "feel" to shoot the shots. None of them evidently uses a system and there are systems for banking just like aiming. I think Efren probably uses some type of aiming system but it is probably something that works just for him and may not be applicable to someone else. He found a way that works for him to make a lot of balls. He may not even be able to explain exactly how he does it because there are probably many factors that go into his aim that are just based on his vast experience with that shot. He just knows from experience how to shoot it. His combination of sight, stroke and delivery are unique to him as they are with everyone else.

I didn't mean to write a book but like I said, I haven't been on here in a while and I'm just trying to make up some ground.

 

[Joe T]

Joe-

This method sounds very similar to the Parallel Aiming method. You determine a contact point on the CB and then simply make it hit the OB. Is this what you're talking about?

It is exactly parallel and matching contact points except I've devised a better way to pick out the cue balls matching contact point which was of the main flaws in the method where you had to visualize or shift over to find that parallel line. I numbered the balls so the cue ball an object ball are mirror images of each other. By training to learn each of the 10 contact points one at a time you will be able to quickly match up the contact points without trying to visualize the parallel line. Angles don't matter, it improves your percetion of the contact points on the front of the cue ball and by having 10 major shots that come up over and over you become a much more consistent and confident player.

Sorry for the late replies, my computer is at the shop and I'm at Kinko's or Fedex or whatever this place is now.

Bob Jewitt has done an article in the June issue of BD mentioning my new twist on an old method. Even there the method sounds a little confusing but it's really very simple once you have the balls in front of you. By the way I have actually been granted a U.S. Patent on this method of aim instruction.

Have a good one, hopefully I be back online tonight or tomorrow.

 

[drivermaker]

All I'm trying to suggest here is to maybe refrain a little from the personal attacks because you never know what kind of person is sitting in at their pc reading this stuff.

I read somewhere, probably BD, that they asked bank pool experts what system they use most and I believe all of them said that they use "feel" to shoot the shots. None of them evidently uses a system and there are systems for banking just like aiming.

Do you mean like the Pope, Priests, Ministers, nuns, virgins, and possibly all non-pool playing goody two-shoes that never stepped into a pool room before to hear it first hand? Tsk, tsk...shame on me.

You're really going to hurt Bob Jewett's feelings...he spends hours preparing his two page physics bank articles to be published in BD on a regular basis. Funny since you mentioned BD that you don't read and practice what's in his articles. That's OK...I know where you're coming from...I don't even read his column.

 

[chefjeff]

(snip)

You're really going to hurt Bob Jewett's feelings...he spends hours preparing his two page physics bank articles to be published in BD on a regular basis. Funny since you mentioned BD that you don't read and practice what's in his articles. That's OK...I know where you're coming from...I don't even read his column.

You should read the June 2005 article, as you're the subject of the first paragraph, imho. I could be wrong, but it seemed that way to me.

Jeff Livingston

 

[vapoolplayer]

It is exactly parallel and matching contact points except I've devised a better way to pick out the cue balls matching contact point which was of the main flaws in the method where you had to visualize or shift over to find that parallel line. I numbered the balls so the cue ball an object ball are mirror images of each other. By training to learn each of the 10 contact points one at a time you will be able to quickly match up the contact points without trying to visualize the parallel line. Angles don't matter, it improves your percetion of the contact points on the front of the cue ball and by having 10 major shots that come up over and over you become a much more consistent and confident player.

Sorry for the late replies, my computer is at the shop and I'm at Kinko's or Fedex or whatever this place is now.

Bob Jewitt has done an article in the June issue of BD mentioning my new twist on an old method. Even there the method sounds a little confusing but it's really very simple once you have the balls in front of you. By the way I have actually been granted a U.S. Patent on this method of aim instruction.

Have a good one, hopefully I be back online tonight or tomorrow.

joe, i'll pm you some more info later.............just wondering if you're available for private lessons..............i'll be in rhode island in the near future and would like to have you help me with this system.........it seems fairly straight forward with the practice balls you provide, but i'm a sucker for one on one instruction.........along with anything else you might be able to add to my game.

thanks

VAP

 

[drivermaker]

You should read the June 2005 article, as you're the subject of the first paragraph, imho. I could be wrong, but it seemed that way to me.

Jeff Livingston

I didn't receive that issue yet. It doesn't matter how negative the first paragraph is, I HOPE he mentioned me by name....

 

[Kevin]

Well Kevin...sometimes when we watch a tape we tend to gloss right over something that's right in front of our nose. So, go back and watch Grady's tape..."The 16 Steps", and you'll hear his reference to aiming about the base of the ball and the lights. Now, after you rewatch the tape and hear it, I would like YOU to come right back on this thread and verify that it was on there. Will you do that? He doesn't explain "HOW" to do it, he just says what he uses and what a bunch of other pro's use.

The article that I'm referring to was posted on HERE by Bob Jewett a while back. It was a reprint from P&B Magazine back in the 90's. IF and ONLY IF, you come back on here and verify Grady talking about the his aiming, I'll email a copy of that P&B article. And THAT is where you'll find Efren's aiming system.

No wonder I didn't miss it... I don't have that tape of his. I do have his accustat straight pool, banking and safety play,
several 1P tapes, but no 16 steps.

Do I get the P&B article anyway, or is it going to require some type of humiliation for your satisfaction here?