How long for change to take?

[Andrew Manning]

Well, I have some bad news. I'm Ford Prefect and you need to accompany me to the bar right now!

If said bar has a pool table or two, then call me Arthur and the first round's on me.

-Andrew

 

[pooltchr]

I think someone already touched on it, but one of the most important things you can do is separate your practice from your play. When you practice, just think about what you are working on, whether it's your stroke (SPFF), alignment, PEP, speed control, or whatever. As you practice these things, they will start to become natural.
When you are playing a match, forget everything you learned in class and just play. The class you attended gave you the information you need to learn. Your practice time is where you work on it. Limit your practice time to about 30 minutes at a time, and only work on one drill for about 5-8 minutes, take a break, then work on another drill.
The more you practice these things, the more natural they become. You will see them finding their way into your game without realizing it. That's when you know the practice is paying off.
You can't practice when you are playing.
Steve

 

[Neil]

.............

 

[Scott Lee]

I changed my stroke radically about two years ago when I tok a lesson from a BCA instructor, and now I think I'm ready for my next lesson, because I've finally had the time and experience I feel I needed to incorporate many of the ideals I learned into my actual game. I have a lesson scheduled with Scott Lee later this month to re-evaluate the way my technique has evolved since then, and see what would benefit from changing about the way I do things now. I'm not an A player by any means yet, so I know Scott can find PLENTY of things to improve about my game.

Anyway, it does take time and practice, but it also takes applying the things you're learning in a way that makes sense. I don't mean to cast any doubts on your abilities, but I'm not sure if learning stroke technique from a DVD can result in you really learning it right. You probably want to learn from a more interactive source of knowledge that can give you some feedback (namely a human being, preferably an experienced instructor), or else you really could be hearing good advice and applying it to your game backwards. You have no guarantee that you're applying things the way DVD intends, because you can't ask it if what you're doing is right.

Lastly, you're likely sucking at leagues because you're trying to think about the techniques you've learned while you're shooting. That's unavoidable at first, but it's guaranteed to hurt your game because you're not able to fully focus on the task at hand. You need to spend a lot of very careful practice, shooting balls meticulously to make sure you're doing everything right on every shot, until the new techniques are ingrained in the way you shoot. Lapsing for even a shot or two cancels out progress you've already made. A few practice sessions of hitting every single ball in careful accordance with the techniques you're learning will make it so you don't have to devote precious concentration to those techniques in competition, and instead you can relax your mind and allow your best game to come through.

Probably not anything you didn't already know, but maybe something you needed to hear right now.

-Andrew

AMEN! Great post! Tap tap tap!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[JimS]

I changed my stroke radically about two years ago when I tok a lesson from a BCA instructor, and now I think I'm ready for my next lesson, because I've finally had the time and experience I feel I needed to incorporate many of the ideals I learned into my actual game. I have a lesson scheduled with Scott Lee later this month to re-evaluate the way my technique has evolved since then, and see what would benefit from changing about the way I do things now. I'm not an A player by any means yet, so I know Scott can find PLENTY of things to improve about my game.

Anyway, it does take time and practice, but it also takes applying the things you're learning in a way that makes sense. I don't mean to cast any doubts on your abilities, but I'm not sure if learning stroke technique from a DVD can result in you really learning it right. You probably want to learn from a more interactive source of knowledge that can give you some feedback (namely a human being, preferably an experienced instructor), or else you really could be hearing good advice and applying it to your game backwards. You have no guarantee that you're applying things the way DVD intends, because you can't ask it if what you're doing is right.

Lastly, you're likely sucking at leagues because you're trying to think about the techniques you've learned while you're shooting. That's unavoidable at first, but it's guaranteed to hurt your game because you're not able to fully focus on the task at hand. You need to spend a lot of very careful practice, shooting balls meticulously to make sure you're doing everything right on every shot, until the new techniques are ingrained in the way you shoot. Lapsing for even a shot or two cancels out progress you've already made. A few practice sessions of hitting every single ball in careful accordance with the techniques you're learning will make it so you don't have to devote precious concentration to those techniques in competition, and instead you can relax your mind and allow your best game to come through.

Probably not anything you didn't already know, but maybe something you needed to hear right now.

-Andrew

Tap! Tap! Tap!

What you've said reflects what I've experienced exactly. I worked very hard on the changes I was given by my teachers and they became ingrained over time. But even while the changes were being made when I was playing on the team I just had to shut up and shoot. (shut up the conscious thinking about my stroke etc).

Since you can't not do something you have to replace what you don't want to do with that which you do want to do. I was able to shut up and shoot by concentrating on the game I was playing at that moment and the shot that was in front of me. Be here now!

Nice to see Scott back too.

 

[mworkman]

Tap! Tap! Tap!

What you've said reflects what I've experienced exactly. I worked very hard on the changes I was given by my teachers and they became ingrained over time. But even while the changes were being made when I was playing on the team I just had to shut up and shoot. (shut up the conscious thinking about my stroke etc).

Since you can't not do something you have to replace what you don't want to do with that which you do want to do. I was able to shut up and shoot by concentrating on the game I was playing at that moment and the shot that was in front of me. Be here now!

Nice to see Scott back too.

I will try to shut up my conscious thoughts, but I know this will be very hard.

Also, when you guys practice the Set-Pause-Finish-Freeze, what are you saying outloud when you are practicing?

I found that I couldn't just say Set-Pause-Finish-Freeze because I had no rhythm.

I found that last night what worked best was:

Set and a 1 and a 2, and a pause, and a finish, and a freeze and a 1 and a 2.

What set of words have worked for your rhythm? Or were you able to just say Set-Pause-Finish-Freeze?

 

[mthornto]

One thing to add – I believe that sometimes the problems we have when changing something in our game has nothing to do with the getting accustomed to the actual change itself, but the self doubt the change introduces in our minds.

I would say about 90% of the players in the world, deep in their heart, think they are better than they really are. Think about how common we hear (and say) things like “I am not in stroke today”, “I never miss that shot”, “I can beat that guy if I am focused”, etc. Excuses flow like drool in a cathouse. We all seem to feel we are better than we are, and I think this is a good thing. It keeps us motivated to bring up our actual skill level to where it is in our mind. But I have gotten off track.

So, I think what happens when we introduce a change is that the change becomes the excuse du jour. Miss a shot? It’s the change in stance. Bad shape? Must be my new wrist position. I am not saying changes to not adversely affect one’s game in the short run, but I think we heap way to much blame on the change and not nearly enough on out normal game.

 

[Billy_Bob]

DON'T change anything in the middle of league season!

Wait until the season is over, then work on changing things.

Then I don't know if you can do this or not... But I will work on something "new" at home when practicing, but not use it in tournaments until I am getting good with it at home.

Also I have switched things in the past which have made me play terrible for awhile. But I understood that it was best for the long run. So I just bit the bullet and played terrible for awhile. But these changes have paid off big time like a year or so later.

 

[mworkman]

I've been taking everyone's advise pretty much. I've been saying my new routine out loud. I think I'm pretty good at operating out of the conscious mode. I ran 27 balls in 14.1 on my second try all the while saying out loud set and a 1 and a 2 etc.

I do think you need to practice this while shooting all kinds of shots, so that it wont feel weird when you do it for real.

I did run into one problem tho'. I'm now having a problem with my long draw shots. I think because on this new stroke, I've also started to stop my elbo from dropping which works fine except on these long draw shots. I keep jumping the cueball. I think the elbo drop helps keep the cue going through the shot on a level plane.

Also, I've been holding the cue at the set position slightly ahead of the 90 degrees. I dont think this is good for a stroke that doesnt drop the elbo because the tip will be driven into the felt that much sooner. I'm going to hold the cue a little farther back. Any thoughts on my ramblings?

 

[Billy_Bob]

...I did run into one problem tho'. I'm now having a problem with my long draw shots...

I don't know what the trouble is, so I will go over everything...

With draw shots, I can shoot lower on the cue ball with my well chalked dime shaped tip. But if using a more flat tip or very flat tip like a house cue frequently has, I need to hit a little higher on the cue ball or it will jump.

So be sure you have a good curve on your tip. Many people prefer nickel shaped. Many others prefer dime shaped.

I lightly scuff my tip with a dime shaped sandpaper shaper after about every 8 hours of play.

Then I chalk well before every shot, especially around the edges of the tip. The edges of the tip are what contacts the cue ball with a draw shot. After chalking, look at the tip under the light. Any dark spots? If yes chalk again. If still dark spots, time to scuff the tip.

Then don't kill the cue ball with speed. Too much speed and more likely to make it jump.

Following through is what makes it draw.

Shoot with a level cue. I use a closed bridge. My bridge hand is about 10 inches back from the tip.

With a long draw shot, I shoot following through so the tip of my cue comes to rest on the cloth about 12 inches past where the cue ball was sitting.

Do this and see how slowly you can shoot and still get draw.

Use just a striped ball for practice. You can see the stripes rotating backwards after the shot.

See how low on the ball you can hit and not jump the ball.

As you get better at this, add speed slowly.

 

[mworkman]

I don't know what the trouble is, so I will go over everything...

With draw shots, I can shoot lower on the cue ball with my well chalked dime shaped tip. But if using a more flat tip or very flat tip like a house cue frequently has, I need to hit a little higher on the cue ball or it will jump.

So be sure you have a good curve on your tip. Many people prefer nickel shaped. Many others prefer dime shaped.

I lightly scuff my tip with a dime shaped sandpaper shaper after about every 8 hours of play.

Then I chalk well before every shot, especially around the edges of the tip. The edges of the tip are what contacts the cue ball with a draw shot. After chalking, look at the tip under the light. Any dark spots? If yes chalk again. If still dark spots, time to scuff the tip.

Then don't kill the cue ball with speed. Too much speed and more likely to make it jump.

Following through is what makes it draw.

Shoot with a level cue. I use a closed bridge. My bridge hand is about 10 inches back from the tip.

With a long draw shot, I shoot following through so the tip of my cue comes to rest on the cloth about 12 inches past where the cue ball was sitting.

Do this and see how slowly you can shoot and still get draw.

Use just a striped ball for practice. You can see the stripes rotating backwards after the shot.

See how low on the ball you can hit and not jump the ball.

As you get better at this, add speed slowly.

This is some good advise. I will definately reshape my tip. However,
I had no problem with my draw before I started working on spff and not dropping my elbo, so it must have something to do with my new technique. And I think if I don't drop my elbo, then I will need to move my grip back some as it is ahead of 90 a tad.

 

[pooltchr]

This is some good advise. I will definately reshape my tip. However,
I had no problem with my draw before I started working on spff and not dropping my elbo, so it must have something to do with my new technique. And I think if I don't drop my elbo, then I will need to move my grip back some as it is ahead of 90 a tad.

Actually, using the SPF pendulum stroke makes it easier for you to control your draw. As long as you are finishing your stroke, with the proper speed, and making contact where you are aiming on the cue ball, your draw will happen. I had a student today who was drawing 5 and 6 diamonds. It was only his second day with his new stroke.
Steve

 

[Billy_Bob]

...I had no problem with my draw before I started working on spff and not dropping my elbo, so it must have something to do with my new technique. And I think if I don't drop my elbo, then I will need to move my grip back some as it is ahead of 90 a tad.

Advanced drawing technique is to really study what the tip is doing as you stroke.

Watch that tip and see exactly what it is doing!

If you move your grip hand slightly forward, notice how the tip has a slightly different up/down movement.

Or try your back hand gripping the butt at normal position.

Or your back hand gripping the butt slight further back, what the tip does so far as up/down movement.

So when you stroke, depending on how far back your bridge hand is, and depending on where your hand is on the butt of the cue, there will be a different up/down movement with the tip as you stroke.

Might be easier for you to see this if you have someone else do it and you watch closely from the side. Just stroke slowly on the table without any balls there. Watch the up/down movements of the tip (as they stroke) with different bridge lengths and the hand on the butt in different positions.

 

[mworkman]

Billy Bob just curious... Do you use the standard pendalem stroke without the elbo drop on your power draw shots? Is your forearm at the set position at 90 degrees? How much draw can you get?

Last night while practicing, I went back to my old stroke (droping the elbo) on my power draw shots and I was just fine, drawing the ball back like I was before. But, when I concentrate on locking the elbo in position and say my routine outloud (set and a 1 and a 2 and a pause, and a finish etc.) I'm not able to draw it as far and I am more likely to jump the cueball. I can still draw the ball some, but I have to take alot off it.

I would like to be able to use the same stroke for all shots, but I'm not sure I can do it. I might just need more time with it. I will look at different grips and bridge lengths tonight to see if I can draw as well keeping that elbo locked tight. Thanks for your help.

 

[Billy_Bob]

Billy Bob just curious... Do you use the standard pendalem stroke without the elbo drop on your power draw shots? Is your forearm at the set position at 90 degrees? How much draw can you get?

I can draw the cue ball just a few inches or full table length. Or cue ball near end of table, object ball far end of table, I can draw the cue ball most of the way back.

I'll call the long draw my power draw and actually I don't know what I do! (It is all unconscious or whatever.)

I know if the cue ball is close to the object ball and I want draw, I shoot a certain way (normal), but if the object ball is at the far end of the table, cue ball near end of the table, and I want to draw the cue ball all the way back, I know I shoot a different way.

I'll go to my pool table and see...

Ok, I'm back! And boy did I learn something...

I had no idea how differently I was shooting these long draw shots!

Anyway keeping in mind that people are "built" differently. People will have different length arms than me and what works for me may not work for you, etc. Here is what I am doing for my long power draw shot...

Tip: Dime shaped Moori hard tip - recently scuffed with dime shaped sandpaper shaper. Well chalked especially around edges. Coating of chalk is all same uniform color over entire tip. I chalk well before every shot and examine tip under light to be sure there are no dark spots.

Bridge: Closed 12 inches from tip (This was a surprise to me. I didn't realize I was making a longer bridge for these shots. Normal is about 10 inches.)

Cue ball hit: Shooting cue ball very low at number 5 on "Jim Rempe Training Ball".

Backhand: I am placing my back hand 2 inches further back on the butt of my cue from normal. (Another surprise! I did not know I was doing this.)

Backhand Grip: Light 2 finger grip (This is different from normal where I'll place more fingers around the butt).

Stroke: Not dropping elbow, I stroke through the cue ball and leave the tip of my cue touching the cloth 11 inches past where the cue ball was sitting. I may or may not add a bit of a "wrist flick" with this shot. I try to add the wrist flick for a bit of additional speed. But I can't see what I am doing.

The reason I did not know what I was doing was that I just practiced these shots for months and months. I used a striped ball only and tried to shoot it so it would still be spinning backwards when it reached the far end of the table.

So just trial and error with practice. Eventually I just unconsciously was able to shoot these shots without thinking.

I do think to myself that this is a long draw shot. That there is a long distance beween the cue ball and object ball. That I want to draw the cue ball all the way back up table. And then I visualize where the cue ball will return to. Then I just shoot this way "automatically".