tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I can tell if I'm going to hate it after a few balls but I'd need at least an hour to know if I'm going to love it. It will still take a while to really tune in to the shaft.
How Long To Adjust To A Different Shaft?
- Thread starter ChrisinNC
- Start date
tomatoshooter
Well-known member
I'm guessing either your game is not as dependent on needing pinpoint accuracy combined with spin and power, or you are very good at adapting to different shafts. Some people are going to subconsciously observe and compensate better than others. I think adaptability is important, the friction of the cloth will change how quickly the cue ball swerves closer to undeflected path of the shot. I've noticed that I seem to get less deflection than most of the videos I watch demonstrating deflection. I don't know if my slow cloth is getting the balls to curve back in line, if I'm not hitting as hard, or if I am hitting higher on the ball and that curves back quicker.
I understand completely what you are saying, that when I miss one of these shots, how do I know it’s not some other reason / stroke flaw other than that I overcompensated or under compensated for deflection, when I’m loading up with spin?No disrespect or confrontation intended to you and the previous poster, but I always have the same question when I see folks questioning the minor differences in cues…
So using your guys’ description of tough shots requiring finesse, spin & power - when one of these is blown, how can you tell its due to minor deflection differences of the shaft that you’re theoretically not used to & accommodating properly for yet? As opposed to say hitting the CB a fraction of a mm off from where you intended, minor head movement, mental distraction, minor stance/alignment offset, minor deceleration of the stroke, or a booger in the cloth? Such shots are challenging for all of us, can you shoot them in at 100% rate with your favorite trusted cue?
I think its a mindset issue. When I miss, my first thought is just “Damn, I suck”. Not - “that damn cue deflected 1.3% more than my old betty that I used to shoot with”…
Personally I’m much more sensitive to how the cue physically feels in my hands; taper, smoothness, balance, weight, and especially the feel of the tip. I honestly don’t worry how much it deflects and don’t consciously change anything about my stroke/aim when using different cues/shafts, even when they are wildly different styles. Cue will just feel different at first and I just quickly get used to it. I’ve tried to figure out how this can possibly be, when others are apparently so sensitive to deflection, but I’ve given up on it.
Clearly we all have different sensitivities and quirks, its all good.
It just seems to me to be the most obvious cause for the miss, especially when I’m learning a new shaft and when practicing - When I have the opportunity to set up the same shot numerous times and make adjustments in my deflection compensation aiming until I’m able to successfully execute the shot consistently.
Takes me a year.
xX-Wizard-Xx
Well-known member
I think deflection has been pounded so much into people head by retail that it is made more important than it needs to be. Hell mosconi ran more than 500 and low deflection shafts really wasn't a thing in those days
phreaticus
Well-known member
Agreed. I’m generally a minimalist wrt to side spin, but of course we all spin the rock occasionally…
I have no solid explanation for it, but when I shoot the standard deflection test shot - CB from head spot full length of table into middle diamond on opposite short rail with max side spin - to observe deflection by noting the CB’s actual contact point on the rail relative to the diamond - I get no measurable difference - I generally hit the diamond (or within 1/2” of it - with any cue/shaft/tip, and no matter what speed. I posed this question in a few other threads a while back and no one really responded, so I gave up trying to really understand or discuss it.
Because of this, for a time I was in the “LD shafts are just marketing bunk” camp. But I’m an engineer, fully understand the physics of squirt, swerve, pivot points, BHE etc… and fully endorse the benefits of LD shafts for those that are sensitive to it. But, it seems to also be true that some folks essentially have a “low deflection stroke” that innately adapts and gets a straight line out of whatever cue/shaft they are given.
My tentative conclusion is that it must just be an inherent proprioceptive thing that some folks are able to naturally balance the squirt, swerve, BHE and shaft pivot point equation subconsciously & efficiently - where other folks must do these elements more consciously.
I think all this is why there are quite a few older crusty types that still remain fiercely adament that all this LD stuff is pure BS… To them, it does appear to be somewhat nonsense…
Such an interesting game…
BTW, this is a bit difficult to discuss, because its hard to make the points and ask the questions without sounding like a total condescending tool. I’m definitely not claiming I have some magical adaptable super stroke. I have a smooth stroke & play fairly strong but certainly no world beater and struggle with all the same BS the everyone does, constantly trying to refine my game. But I would honestly like to know what it is about my stroke that makes deflection mostly non issue for me and to learn if what I’m experiencing is unique or not.
Cheers
phreaticus
Well-known member
Yeah, thats a more accurate summary for me also. Cheers
you have to remember that 14.1 was big then and its mostly a half-table game. playing 9b on a 9ft has a lot of longer higher speed/spin shots. low-deflect. shafts are a plus in that game. go to any big event, almost every good player uses low-deflect of some kind.
phreaticus
Well-known member
Thanks for a good discussion. I also understand your perspective & am not dismissing it. I think it might be like when we learn of anything new - like a new model of car - suddenly we seem to see lots of them when we didn’t notice them previously.
Mystery of the game!
I’ve always considered the possibility that some people have just the right amount of cue elevation through their stroke that cue ball swerve and cue ball deflection virtually cancel out each other, for shots you are applying spin. Sounds like perhaps you are one of those lucky ones that is the case for?
I would think the problem with that is that if you start missing, it may be trickier to correct, as it may be harder to figure out which one of those two variables is causing the miss.
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Change the shaft. Although it's a bit like buying a Ferrari then swapping the engine
This is only true if the shafts have almost identical deflection and "juice" they put on the ball. Try going from a 1" ivory ferrule cue to a Z3, OB, Revo and you won't like it much.
Probably the biggest drawback to being used to playing with a low deflection shaft is that swapping to a house cue or some random cue a buddy has with a standard shaft is pretty much impossible to do and maintain any type of consistency.
phreaticus
Well-known member
Not sure if you have digested all the posts in the thread, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have literally done exactly what you said above dozens of times; explicitly trying to measure the differences in deflection among wildly different cues; ranging from old school vintage cues with 13mm maple shafts & 1" ivory ferrules, whippy old scruggs sneaky's, to shiny 12mm CF/LD shafts with barely any ferrule - and get same results within 1/2" when doing the standard deflection test - where others as seen in popular videos seem to experience up to a ball or more worth of deflection on the full table length deflection test shot.
Some of us seem to have different experiences with these things. I'm not able to full answer why, hence the discussion above and why this seems to remain an ongoing raging debate for decades now.
The only thing I'm sure of - is that these absolutist views on deflection that some express are just not an accurate description of what all of us experience.
Cheers
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phreaticus
Well-known member
I guess it's possible, also coupled with the fact that I'm a minimalist regarding side spin in general. That seemed to be the rough conclusion of the other thread a few weeks ago, although not many folks weighed in on it.
That's an interesting point that may very well be true.
More broadly, I personally believe once a person has a pretty tight & consistent set of fundamentals and a fluid stroke - mental state related to internal confidence and focus are the much more difficult variables to manage, at least these areas seem to be the weakest parts of my own game at the moment.
It's also possible that I'm entirely self deluded and suck so bad that I'm just not able to discern WTF is going on with deflection. Maybe one day I'll have a breakthrough and finally figure it all out.
Cheers
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Not sure if you have digested all the posts in the thread, and I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I have literally done exactly what you said above dozens of times; explicitly trying to measure the differences in deflection among wildly different cues; ranging from old school vintage cues with 13mm maple shafts & 1" ivory ferrules, whippy old scruggs sneaky's, to shiny 12mm CF/LD shafts with barely any ferrule - and get same results within 1/2" when doing the standard deflection test - where others as seen in popular videos seem to experience up to a ball or more worth of deflection on the full table length deflection test shot.
Some of us seem to have different experiences with these things. I'm not able to full answer why, hence the discussion above and why this seems to remain an ongoing raging debate for decades now.
The only thing I'm sure of - is that these absolutist views on deflection that some express are just not an accurate description of what all of us experience.
Cheers
It's a simple deflection test, put a cueball on the spot, put an object ball middle of the opposite rail, aim center to center, then shift the whole cue fully to one side or the other, don't use any pivoting front or back as that changes how the spin works due to curve too much, just shift the full cue and bridge to the left or right edge, aim straight at the ball on the far end of the table. When I do this, house cues and some other cues fully miss the object ball, what I consider LD shafts hit the ball 1/3 full or better.
If the results you are getting are that close, you are compensating for the spin yourself and not testing the shaft and only the shaft. The reason people see different results is they do the test at different speeds, putting spin on the ball in different ways, maybe testing with the balls closer together, compensating for spin subconsciously when aiming, whatever. The important part is to make sure you are testing only what the shaft does, not what your aim does.
If we all follow the scientific method, the results will be the same, there is simply no other way for them to happen. Same test, same result. If not, then the test is flawed, or the basic final idea we are trying to test is flawed. Since we the idea of deflection is now very well known, there is no issues with the actual idea/theory, that leaves how we do the test as the variable if people see one thing and others see another thing.
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This is generally a judgement call. If your {eye, mind, stroke} all tell you that the ball should have dropped, but it did not, THEN you might consider that the shaft played a roll in the miss. Basically: your muscles have memory and they tell you one thing while the physics transpiring on the table tells you something different.
To add a little bit to this, when I switched from a full hard maple shaft to an LD CF shaft I know for sure it was the LD properties that were screwing with me because just about any shot with spin was simply not behaving as expected, to a pretty extreme amount. I'd miss easy short shots, and for longer shots I might miss the entire ball, or be off by a diamond or more. I'm not that bad a player. But when there was a big change in deflection characteristics, I realized that my "pool sense" was thrown completely off and all the adjusting for deflection I didn't fully realize I had been doing would have to change again. I'm glad I went through it because now I'm much more consistent with a variety of spin shots that I never was with a maple shaft. But sometimes, it's clear what the cause is.
To answer the general question for the thread, if someone is switching from non-LD to/from LD then it'll be at least a few months, and longer the better a player you are. For someone switching between different flavors of the same type of shaft (one maple to another, or one LD to another) then a few weeks of regular play should be fine, but it could easily take a month or two to get most of the subtle/finesse elements down.
why would you not adjust your stroke so the cueball goes straight. there is no real advantage of moving the whole stick over a large amount straight across.
why make it so the cueball squirts more. plus you also cant aim the shot as well unless you now move your whole body over. you complicate a simple process. and you now dont even see the shot right. that may be why more miss because of that.
it is fine for a small amount especially with speed so it wont matter.
why make it so the cueball squirts more. plus you also cant aim the shot as well unless you now move your whole body over. you complicate a simple process. and you now dont even see the shot right. that may be why more miss because of that.
it is fine for a small amount especially with speed so it wont matter.