How Long To Adjust To A Different Shaft?

hang-the-9 said:
It's a simple deflection test, put a cueball on the spot, put an object ball middle of the opposite rail, aim center to center, then shift the whole cue fully to one side or the other, don't use any pivoting front or back as that changes how the spin works due to curve too much, just shift the full cue and bridge to the left or right edge, aim straight at the ball on the far end of the table. When I do this, house cues and some other cues fully miss the object ball, what I consider LD shafts hit the ball 1/3 full or better.

If the results you are getting are that close, you are compensating for the spin yourself and not testing the shaft and only the shaft. The reason people see different results is they do the test at different speeds, putting spin on the ball in different ways, maybe testing with the balls closer together, compensating for spin subconsciously when aiming, whatever. The important part is to make sure you are testing only what the shaft does, not what your aim does.

If we all follow the scientific method, the results will be the same, there is simply no other way for them to happen. Same test, same result. If not, then the test is flawed, or the basic final idea we are trying to test is flawed. Since we the idea of deflection is now very well known, there is no issues with the actual idea/theory, that leaves how we do the test as the variable if people see one thing and others see another thing.
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The standard deflection test is well documented and well known, Dr Dave vids etc… As I said, I’ve done it numerous times with a wide variety of non LD and LD cues/shafts and get pretty consistent results. Its generally recommended to do it at high speed, but I do it with same general outcome at any speed. I do see very minor differences but its barely discernable, under 1/2” on the full table length high speed test shot, and 95% of the time I’m nailing the center diamond square, even with heavily applied max side spin.

I’m not arguing that deflection isn’t a real thing, quite the opposite. Nor am I arguing that I’m not doing something unconsciously in my visualization/aiming/bridge/stroke to compensate, as its the only possible explanation.

I doubt I’m that unique, and suspect that there are plenty of folks that do similar, as there are clearly many folks who report they just pick up any cue, hit a few balls to get a feel for it and play the game at a high level. For these types, the “LD ness” of a shaft just appears to not be that important of an issue. Road players used to consider the ability to play off the rack to be a fundamental skill.

I personally think it relates to how one applies spin, in terms FHE, BHE, parallel etc, bridge lengths, and pivot points. There are myriads of accomplished players who have no real concept of these terms or concepts. They probably just have a good intuitive feel for the shafts pivot point and apply spin via BHE whether they realize it or not, as the offset angle is simply incorporated into their visualization, stance, approach and stroke. Personally, when I heard first these terms, and started paying attention to how I hit the ball with side spin while keeping these perspectives in mind - I felt like I was applying perfectly parallel side spin. When a smart seasoned pool player friend watched me and when I saw some video of my self I realized that I’m actually minorily angling the cue with my rear grip hand, ie a form BHE. Also, over time I’ve realized that I do subconsciously use different bridge lengths when using different cues & shafts, which I guess implies that I’m intuitively adjusting my bridge/stroke to optimize the pivot point/BHE ratio…? I suspect that very few folks actually use strictly parallel english, but rather a dynamic combo of FHE/BHE that is just incorporated into their game. Again, I had no idea that these terms/concepts even existed until I started playing pool again after decades away and catching up on all the modern terms & educational content that is now available.

Its taken a lot of thought and time to realize this stuff for me, and I still really can’t say what exactly is going on. This also means that whatever I’m doing is not really teachable or marketable, and thus it makes good sense for instructors and equipment makers to advocate lower deflection cues as a general practice. I myself prefer and play with moderately low deflection shafts (Cynergy CF 12.5, for me similar to the good old 314 as a baseline ref)…

Anyway, I think the take away for this thread topic is that IMO how much time it takes to adjust to a LD cue depends on many personal factors which are nearly impossible to characterize.

Personally, I don’t know why anyone who already has a strong game and who is also sensitive enough to a shaft’s deflection characteristics such that they are finding it difficult or time consuming to adjust to a new shaft - why bother? There are plenty of both wood & CF shafts with wide ranges of deflection characteristics, such that any combo of shaft features can be found to suit one’s preferences…

An analogy; most players tend to have a preference on a cues balance point, rear or forward balanced. Same with cue length; 58 vs 59 vs 60”, 29 vs 30” shaft, equal split or not, etc. No “correct” answer, seems to depend on ones personal anatomy, stance, playing style, etc. Over time I’ve found thru trial & error that I prefer standard 58” cues that are rearward balanced. I can and do play with anything, but I’ve settled on what I like and even though I’m a cue slut, I prefer to stay with cues of those specs. Ie I don’t continue trying to play with 60” cues or heavy forward balanced shafts under the assumption that they will help my game if I just get used to them, because others love them.

Anyway, those are my $0.00002. As REM said, “Oh no I've said too much, I haven't said enough”… 🤣

Cheers ✌️
 
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MitchAlsup said:
This is generally a judgement call. If your {eye, mind, stroke} all tell you that the ball should have dropped, but it did not, THEN you might consider that the shaft played a roll in the miss. Basically: your muscles have memory and they tell you one thing while the physics transpiring on the table tells you something different.
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Maybe… but that sounds pretty speculative to me…

I guess testing your theory would be pretty simple; setup one of these tricky challenging shots in a repeatable manner. Shoot it 20 times with your favorite cue that you are used to. Then after you are reasonably acclimated to the new cue/shaft (hours, days, weeks, months?) repeat the exact same test shot 20 times again with that cue. Compare success rates.

Aside from answering the core question that I posed, it seems that this is also a pretty decent way to verify if one is or isn’t fully adjusted to the new cue or not. Thats what I would do if had internal demons robbing me of confidence in my new weapon.

Cheers
 
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ChrisinNC said:
I’ve been experimenting with 3 different shafts recently, all with varied levels of deflection. I’d been playing with a Mezz EXPro shaft for a number of years, but have been in a slump of late so I decided to switch things up. I’m 65 and I’ve been playing pool 50+ years.

After taking a break for about a month and not playing at all, about two weeks ago I tried the Mezz carbon fiber Ignite shaft, but found that it deflected more than the EXPro and I’m not crazy about the sound and feel of carbon fiber so that choice only lasted a week or so.

Now for the last few practice sessions I’m using the Mezz WX900 shaft - the thinnest of the 3 with a conical taper. It clearly deflects the least of the 3, and as I like to utilize significant spin for positioning when needed, I think this is the shaft I’m going to stick with.

I’m just curious from those of you that have experimented with different shafts with different degrees of deflection, how long do you think it takes playing / practicing with a different shaft until you really start to feel comfortable / confidence with it, particularly in a tournament situation under pressure, when it really counts?

I’m hoping just a few weeks - maybe a half dozen or so 2-3 hour practice sessions, but I don’t know if that’s a realistic expectation? I’m sure I’ll find out, possibly the hard way.
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It kind of depends on how different it is from the one you have been using. For example, if you go from a solid maple shaft to a Predator it will take a while.
 
Texas Carom Club said:
I usually do with a couple hrs of dedicated practice
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If I’ve not already said it before, adjusting to a new shaft / deflection is completely different in practice with absolutely no pressure than it is under tournaments pressure conditions. I thought I had adjusted to it pretty well in practice, but I found out otherwise in my most recent tournament.
 
then its a pressure issue for you chris. work on that if you can. basically folding under pressure even a small amount is really just choking.

most times its because you are out of your comfort zone. only way to better it is to gamble higher stakes or play in enough tournaments.

a good practice shot is to start near the short rail and set up a long tough shot with a small cut. then hit it hard with inside english to make it and bring the cueball back to you. after you can master that, and make it almost every time from the different angles and distances, the rest of the shots in pool start falling into place and soon they all become second nature of making them or at least rattling them when too tough.

when you teach yourself to believe you are a good shotmaker then pressure is off or lessened.
 
I was forced into this 2 weeks ago when my main player's ferrule cracked and I had to game one of my other cues. At first I thought I'd have to get it fixed ASAP bc I couldn't make shots with a lot of english with either of the options I had. After a few hours of play, I was def not as bad with one of the options. A week later, it's like this has been my cue for years. I should mention I don't consciously adjust aimpoint for spin so had to actually hit shots over and over till they 'looked right' with this cue as what looked right with my go-to stick consistently aimed up for less deflection. Also, turns out that the aiming system I used and have long forgotten must have used shaft reference points as going from the 11.5mm to a 13mm made 3/4 hits in particular look different and I was missing them pretty bad for a bit...always thick to either side even without sidespin. That too went away and now I'm playing as if I had this cue a long time. The entire adjustment process took less than 20 table hours.

Edit: If going from a 17oz, 58", super back-weighted, 11.5mm cue, to a 19oz, 61", not as back-weighted, 13mm cue, took just 20hrs or so, just switching out the shaft on a cue for one with diff deflection should at least be doable in that time. But as the disclaimer goes: individual results may vary.
 
WobblyStroke said:
I was forced into this 2 weeks ago when my main player's ferrule cracked and I had to game one of my other cues. At first I thought I'd have to get it fixed ASAP bc I couldn't make shots with a lot of english with either of the options I had. After a few hours of play, I was def not as bad with one of the options. A week later, it's like this has been my cue for years. I should mention I don't consciously adjust aimpoint for spin so had to actually hit shots over and over till they 'looked right' with this cue as what looked right with my go-to stick consistently aimed up for less deflection. Also, turns out that the aiming system I used and have long forgotten must have used shaft reference points as going from the 11.5mm to a 13mm made 3/4 hits in particular look different and I was missing them pretty bad for a bit...always thick to either side even without sidespin. That too went away and now I'm playing as if I had this cue a long time. The entire adjustment process took less than 20 table hours.

Edit: If going from a 17oz, 58", super back-weighted, 11.5mm cue, to a 19oz, 61", not as back-weighted, 13mm cue, took just 20hrs or so, just switching out the shaft on a cue for one with diff deflection should at least be doable in that time. But as the disclaimer goes: individual results may vary.
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But the million $ question we all have is - is your stroke still wobbly?

😁✌️
 
maha said:
then its a pressure issue for you chris. work on that if you can. basically folding under pressure even a small amount is really just choking.

most times its because you are out of your comfort zone. only way to better it is to gamble higher stakes or play in enough tournaments.

a good practice shot is to start near the short rail and set up a long tough shot with a small cut. then hit it hard with inside english to make it and bring the cueball back to you. after you can master that, and make it almost every time from the different angles and distances, the rest of the shots in pool start falling into place and soon they all become second nature of making them or at least rattling them when too tough.

when you teach yourself to believe you are a good shotmaker then pressure is off or lessened.
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I agree, but I’m afraid it’s also age related. Many older players here likely know what I’m talking about. A confident stroke just becomes harder to count on particularly under pressure, among senior players, for I’m guessing the same reason that senior pro golfers lose their putting stroke / touch.
 
ChrisinNC said:
If I’ve not already said it before, adjusting to a new shaft / deflection is completely different in practice with absolutely no pressure than it is under tournaments pressure conditions. I thought I had adjusted to it pretty well in practice, but I found out otherwise in my most recent tournament.
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I am fairly certain you know what happened. Once the tournament started you went back to your prior knowledge of the original shaft. So it is not the shaft itself, your just not fully adjusted to the new one. That will change eventually and there is no way of predicting how much time might be needed for you to fully commit to the new shaft.

Similarly I shot lights out with the new ExPro right out of the gate. Fast forward a few days and I was uncertain with it and was disappointed. Another week later and the Expro is fast becoming my bff shaft, if that isn't to creepy.. I have no clue if that will continue or not but I do love the ExPro and am fully committed to it...

I also think it may take longer for 'older' folks to make the mental adjustment than say a person under 55 or so. I am 70 and still play fairly well and have a winning percentage of .750 over the first ten weeks of a local cash league. I do however find my decision process to be taking me a little longer than it used to, so I am assuming my brain is a wee bit slower than it was years ago.

On that note I had an eye exam the other day and told the doctor I needed a bit longer to look at the letters cause it takes me longer to decide which adjustment is best. She was very understanding and I cannot wait to get my new glasses. Got two new pair coming, one for everyday use full progressive and one specific for pool. The pool glasses are a 'mid range' premium 'Trivex' lens and have a wider field of vision than the normal progressives do.. Really looking forward to the new spectacles.. It did help, at least it did not hurt, that she was so attentive and easy on the eyes as well!

Giddyup!
 
i bet i am older than almost all here. my stroke has improved in the last few years surprisingly as i put some extra time in making sure it is dead straight.

that is what it takes. i can close my eyes and turn my head and still run balls. one handed shots are a piece of cake. its all about your stroke. and it does change with age and you health and weight. so you have to fix it.

we aint 20 or 30 years old anymore and never will be.
 
when changing shaft diameter your whole perspective of the shot has changed and that is the big adjustment to make and learn. and isnt easy .
 
I remember when young reading somewhere that Mosconi stating that it took him 3 months to get used to a new cue. Don't know if that was factual or not, he could beat anyone with what ever he held but I have remembered that for over 50 years. Don't see where a new shaft on a cue would be any different.
 
Wood to wood no problem but adjusting from wood to carbon took close to a month. English and especially throw on a cue ball was way different and what took the most time getting use too
 
telinoz said:
3 months if you're lucky.
6 months about right.
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One of our best playing regulars who studies all this stuff was surprised when I told him I had switched to a thinner shaft with less deflection. He said that’s because I use backhand English (BHE).

Does that make sense that someone like myself who uses BHE might have a tougher time adjusting to a different shaft with less deflection?
 
ChrisinNC said:
One of our best playing regulars who studies all this stuff was surprised when I told him I had switched to a thinner shaft with less deflection. He said that’s because I use backhand English (BHE).

Does that make sense that someone like myself who uses BHE might have a tougher time adjusting to a different shaft with less deflection?
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Not heard of BHE before, what is that?
 
telinoz said:
Not heard of BHE before, what is that?
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Pivoting the butt of your cue to the left of parallel when applying right hand spin or right of parallel when applying left hand spin. Many players do this subconsciously without even realizing they do it.

Do a search on here on backhand english if you really want to digest more of this than you’ll ever want to know.
 
phreaticus said:
But the million $ question we all have is - is your stroke still wobbly?

😁✌️
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Yeah... in the best kind of way. I guess wavy is a better word. Whatever you call it, it's a beaut. Diff balance, diff feel, so the wobble is diff but it is there, just less pronounced to the point of being barely noticeable on most soft/med shots.
 
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