How many of you folks think that Players "splitting" the Pot is bad for the Sport?

[WGDave]

Maybe. But this is a perfect example. The tournament directors KNOW how many players there are, and how long the matches take. They should structure the event to make it done by midnight. IF that means doubling the entry to get half the players, or making the races to 5, or limiting the number of entries, or putting a shot clock on the snails, or whatever, so be it. It will make the event better overall if there is a conclusion. And short races make the matches more exciting.

Believe the Mezz West Tour does nor preregister for its events. They may have an idea of the expected turnout, but not an exact number. Oscar did say on the live stream that he had an idea the turnout at Hard Times Bellflower would be big based off his Facebook comments, but did not have a number going in.

If the event is capped at 128, then they should pick a format that will get it finished at a reasonable time. Finishing in the middle of the night is not good for the fans that have followed the event throughout the weekend. A 9 PM Pacific completion should be the goal to keep the audience on both coasts until the end. The end is where the best matches occur between players; this should be the focus to promote the tour.

Limiting the number of players seems counterproductive to promoting the sport. Shortening the races also has a downside; it makes it less likely the best players will advance in a handicapped event due to lucky rolls by the less talented player. This is mostly a concern to the professionals that dislike handicapped events to begin with. As a fan, I prefer to see the best players, so chasing the pros away from these tours is not a good outcome. A tour full of bangers will go nowhere.

Shot clocks are a good idea, but hard to implement for these types of tours.

My suggestion would be to get volunteers to help at each stop of the tour. For the cost of a shirt the tour could get volunteers to help out as referees/assistant TD's. Their responsibilities would include the occasional refereeing and overseeing the event from the floor to help insure the pace of play is upheld. When each match is concluded, they would enter the results into a database that tracks the event. Having 3 or 4 of these volunteers at each stop would be enough. My guess is that they'd get 100 people volunteering with enough billiards savvy to fill these jobs in a short amount of time. Ask and you shall receive. It would also make each event much more enjoyable for those that already have too much on their plate during these events.

It's all a process, and I'm sure they will get it right in the end.

 

[Island Drive]

It's all a process, and I'm sure they will get it right in the end.

In a perfect world that would be true. Remember, were dealing with pool players in pool rooms and bars with liquor in a double elimination event. Until the format changes, it'll happen again. Just the way it is, until we start playing sets/single elimination like they do in tennis best two outta three or three out of five sets it ain't gonna happen.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Problem is...MWST aren't open events.
They are handicapped.
7s, 8s, and 9s with game spots going to 9.
That combined with the low entry fee and deep payouts is probably one of the reasons they get a lot of players to begin with.

You shorten the races, you kill the established handicap, players lose interest.
You change it to scratch, you could then make it race to 5 if you wanted, but all the players who know they will never win, lose interest.
You jack up the entry fee, you lose lots of players, because now it goes from a fun time and a chance to compete, to something slightly more serious.
It's hard enough to keep "the filler" interested in playing as is.
Unless they are diehards, most times they will eventually wise up when they realize they will never win, and stop donating.

Only solution IMO that doesn't totally shoot itself in the foot, is to start earlier and stick to it so EVERYONE needs coffee and is sleepy eyed during their first match.

There was a tournament recently where locals were at the pool room at 10am because a 1030am players meeting was what was announced locally.
Unfortunately, players from out of state didn't get that message and rolled in later, around noon to 1pm (the usual start time for most stuff) and all those players who were there bright and early, faded first.
Nothing worse than inconsistency.

You will NEVER prevent chopping in pool and even if you think you can, you are just fooling yourself, and the players will simply chop behind your back even if they play it out.
So why bother trying?
Only thing that will ever change that is if pool starts to pay out 6 and 7 figures PER tournament for 1st and 2nd.
Then, it's not about chopping or making a saver so you can eat the next day, because there is plenty of money to go around.
But that will never happen in pool.
Not in this lifetime, so people might as well just deal with it.

 

[MalibuMike]

"You will NEVER prevent chopping in pool" THATS THE PROBLEM!

"You will NEVER prevent chopping in pool and even if you think you can, you are just fooling yourself, and the players will simply chop behind your back even if they play it out.
So why bother trying?
Only thing that will ever change that is if pool starts to pay out 6 and 7 figures PER tournament for 1st and 2nd.
Then, it's not about chopping or making a saver so you can eat the next day, because there is plenty of money to go around.
But that will never happen in pool.
Not in this lifetime, so people might as well just deal with it."

Ok, I started this post. And it was not addressed to us working stiffs who have to get up the next morning and work a 8 to 12 hour shift.
It was addressed to Professional POOL PLAYERS! People who are sponsored and do this for a living. I have talked to many pro's about how the money is not like it used to be, but maybe the reason is in the response above.

"the players will simply chop behind your back even if they play it out.
So why bother trying?"

With that kind of attitude why would anyone even bother watching the sport?
Look at all the threads on here about "who's the best?" or "who is your favorite pool God?" Fans want like to see competition! Anyone who says, "Deal with it" is the problem, and the reason that there is no "pay out 6 and 7 figures PER tournament for 1st and 2nd." Look at Snooker in England, the limey's sure figured out how to do it! Why are less skilled players allowed to play in Professional Events, with weight? To fill the slots?
Maybe if we started treating billiards like a professional event, and stop with all this silly amateur bar-box hype and got the talented pro's back on ESPN like they used to be, on a regular basis, who knows maybe the public would start taking notice again. When I was a kid in the 70's and 80's we would all turn out to watch our one or two great local players, like Mexican Ron Rosas go up against Buddy Hall or Efren Reyes. Look at the playing field on some of these stats! Now, any hack like me can go, as long as I got the cash, and play a pro event. Stiffer qualification rules and maybe Finals will have to be on Sunday, or the next week. I'm not putting the blame on anyone person, the director, the players, if anyone is to blame it’s these big corporations! The International Pool Tour acquired by Ho Interactive? Greed controls and ruins many sports, but none more blatantly then Billiards.

Maybe this Superstar is right, why bother.........

Here is why....
"The game once had serious respect and its stars were sports legends at the top of the sports page. When was the last time you saw a pool player get in your newspaper sports page. At the turn of the 20th century who ever held the billiard title pulled in a million dollars a year from it.

When Hoppe won the world baulk line title in 1906 Sir Union won the Kentucky Derby and $4850, Joe Gang got $10,500 for his 4th round win for the boxing championship over Bat Nelson in Nevada, Each Cub player got $459 as their share of the baseball world series. You can take those prices times 20 or 25 to get today’s dollar. Hoppe was making more money than all of them, 10 times more money than Babe Ruth who was making more money than the president. Babe said he deserved it because he had a better year." ~ Fast Larry
That’s all,
Mike
To read the whole article by fast Larry go here:
http://www.fastlarrypool.com/encyclopedia/knowledge_history_goldenage.htm

 

[MalibuMike]

I started this thread due to Oscar Dominguez at the Mezz tour, WRONG!

Also someone stated I started this thread due to Oscar Dominguez at the Mezz tour, WRONG!

I have nothing but the highest respect for Oscar Dominguez, as a person and a player, in fact he is probably one of my favorites. I have also talked with him and texted and found him to be a great guy! Like I was just trying to say below, I’m not fingering any one person or director. If anything is to blame its corporate greed.
That may just be my Jesuit social justice upbringing talking but I think it’s true.

Congrats on your marriage Oscar!

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Um. Professional pool players shoot themselves in the foot all the time.
And just becaused you are sponsored, and have patches out the whaazoo all over your shirt, doesn't mean you actually make a good living off of pool.
Most working stiffs have a WAY better life then a pool player with all their sponsorships.

Pool will never be a mainstream sport in this country. EVER.
Just look at Snooker in England. Players are worth millions of dollars.
One maximum break at a tournament, and the jackpot that goes with it might be more then 99% of American pool players earn per year.
AND THE PUBLIC LOVES IT.

You really think that pool is somehow going to overtake Football, Baseball, Hockey, and Basketball or even Tennis and Nascar as a spectator sport in this country?
NEVER GONNA HAPPEN.

Pool, at best, will always be a second tier sport in this country.
Sucks to say that, but that's the truth of the matter.
Sure, there are gonna be a few people that get mad at that, and say it's too negative, but that's the reality of it.

Pool will only be interesting to pool players and enthusiasts.

Sure, the prize money used to be more 25 years ago.
And pool has shot itself in the foot, and been ripped off enough times along the way.
You can't go back in time and change it.

Plus, why complain about the prize money at all that has gone down, if pool players are the first ones to sell out and GO TO THE EVENTS that are paying them crap.

If I can still get every pool player in the country to show up after I drop it down from 20k added, to 18k, and then I can drop it down to 16k and then 14k etc etc.
Hmmmmm. Let me see.
The only thing that happens is the pool players bittch and complain about the prize money, BUT THEY STILL SHOW UP.
More money in my pocket, less for the players, they all still show up. WOOO HOOO!!! (if I was a promoter)

Oh wait. Let me throw in that if pool players want to earn points for Mosconi cup or other ratings based events, they also have to sell their souls and go play in all the events, like it or not, if they want to have a chance.

Who pays for that?
Oh yeah. For the most part, that comes out of the pool players pocket.
And people wonder why players chop.

Doesn't mean that it can't be made better though.
Sure, we could improve the situation of pool.

But it's gonna take a lot more then players not chopping to fix it.

1st on that list is bring back bucket pockets.
Tight pockets are for 1pocket.
No spectator wants to sit and watch a crapload of safes they don't even understand when they aren't pool players.
They want explosive dynamic pool.
Football can come down to the final seconds for that game winning play!
Baseball, they can rally in the end of the inning to pull themselves out of the hole!
Basketball, it might just come down to the final seconds and the last 3 point shot!
Hockey, who doesn't like watching a couple of guys beat the crap out of each other and blood bouncing off the ice on top of overtime and powerplays.
Tennis, watching the epic battle unfold and watching as people push past the limits of their human conditioning to run down the ball and make a fantastic return!

POCKET BILLIARDS...boring as sh!t.

 

[WGDave]

But in Professional Tournament play like what's been happening at Hard Times and other Tournaments in So. Cal. Some of us actually love the sport so much we would like to see who wins!!!!!!!!!

Think that last part of your original post contradicts what you just wrote. The Mezz West Tour just had a split occur among the top three at Hard Times a few weeks ago. Nobody blamed Oscar, he did not have any choice, the pool hall did not want to pay overtime to the employees. Also, as Oscar has stated on his websites, it becomes a safety issue for everyone involved at that point.

What followed were suggestions of how to prevent it from reoccurring in the future for any pro/am regional event. As a fan, like yourself, it is frustrating to follow an event that ends in a split with no clear winner.

Starting this thread was a good thing and needed. Not sure if it will be read by the people that can make changes, but it is a good place to vent and make suggestions.

Oscar and his dad Ernesto are held in the highest regards on the west coast. Never have heard one unkind word in the real or cyber world about those two. My only gripe is that I can't get the Zan tip I desire from his website. Try to support those that are good for the sport if I can.

 

[ceebee]

I've heard it said that Pool Tournaments are just about the only Sport where the players concede the victory and/or split the winnings.

In some venues I don't care & locally I have done the same. But when it counts... nothing is a gimme.

 

[chefjeff]

Races to 2 are underrated. It takes focus and balls to win such matches, but you can home before midnight.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Runner]

The Mezz West at Hard Times was overwhelmed when it came to timing, pure and simple. I've said what the problems were, no need to rehash.
Ernesto and Oscar are pool legit in SoCal... absolutely.

I still maintain that the semi's and final could have been played out on Monday, unless there was some scheduling conflict.

Chopping sure isn't doing pool any favors... can you imagine:

"It has been revealed that Willie Mosconi and Irving Crane split the pot"

"Efren Reyes and Earl Strickland decided to split the winnings... the final was played to a half empty arena"

 

[Bigtruck]

The Mezz West at Hard Times was overwhelmed when it came to timing, pure and simple. I've said what the problems were, no need to rehash.
Ernesto and Oscar are pool legit in SoCal... absolutely.

I still maintain that the semi's and final could have been played out on Monday, unless there was some scheduling conflict.

Chopping sure isn't doing pool any favors... can you imagine:

"It has been revealed that Willie Mosconi and Irving Crane split the pot"

"Efren Reyes and Earl Strickland decided to split the winnings... the final was played to a half empty arena"

Oscar made the right call.

When this happens, you must make the tough call and learn from the situation. I guarantee that Oscar is committed to continuous improvement and his tour will continue to grow and improve.

Ray

 

[WGDave]

Shot Clock

Seems that Oscar has introduced the shot clock to the Mezz West Tour.

On the Mezz West Website, it now says "New Live Tablet Scoring + Shot Clock".

Not sure when the change was made, but it will be appreciated. Will be interesting to see how they implement the shot clock at this type of event this weekend in Fresno at Diamond Billiards.

http://www.mezzweststatetour.com/

 

[bazkook]

I agree that a pro tournament prize should never be chopped. If the tournament is running longer than expected, either the remainder of the matches should be played on the next day, especially if the tournament runs longer than the pool room's business hours, or a shot clock should be put in place, if it did not exist already. In my area most pool rooms typically close at 2 AM but I cannot speak for other areas.
I feel that amateur tournaments are okay to chop if all parties agree. I have chopped a few tournaments. One was probably to my benefit, as the guy in the hot seat was a few notches better than me and I would have probably came out with less money if the final would have been played out and I lost. Another time I split the pot was when I was in the hot seat in a handicapped 9 ball tournament on New Year's Eve. There were going to be multiple tournaments held that night and the guy who came through the loser's bracket suggested the split so that the next tournament could start on time. We were about even as far as skill level goes and he let me take the majority of the money since I was in the hot seat, so it was not a bad deal IMO. I have also split other tournaments that started in the evening and ran to the wee hours of the morning.

 

[purpdrag]

I feel the same way.

BUT, I put the root cause at the tournament director, not the players. Most of the time the pot is split, its because it just turned 1:30 AM and there are still 3 guys left in the event. Forget that, no one wants to play OR watch that. The directors need to do whatever it takes to structure their events so its over at a reasonable hour.

I also agree. I think wholeheartedly that splitting the pot is bad for the sport, but there should be more controls in place and better planning to ensure that the tournament finishes at a reasonable time. I have heard of many tournaments going on until 4:00 AM.

 

[MalibuMike]

How did I contradict myself?

Think that last part of your original post contradicts what you just wrote. The Mezz West Tour just had a split occur among the top three at Hard Times a few weeks ago. Nobody blamed Oscar, he did not have any choice, the pool hall did not want to pay overtime to the employees. Also, as Oscar has stated on his websites, it becomes a safety issue for everyone involved at that point.

What followed were suggestions of how to prevent it from reoccurring in the future for any pro/am regional event. As a fan, like yourself, it is frustrating to follow an event that ends in a split with no clear winner.

Starting this thread was a good thing and needed. Not sure if it will be read by the people that can make changes, but it is a good place to vent and make suggestions.

Oscar and his dad Ernesto are held in the highest regards on the west coast. Never have heard one unkind word in the real or cyber world about those two. My only gripe is that I can't get the Zan tip I desire from his website. Try to support those that are good for the sport if I can.

I was responding to the below reply, I started this post and did not even go to or know what happened at the Mezz event. As you can see from all these posts splitting the pot didn't just start 3 weeks ago.
"Malibu" Mike Murphy
Thee Most Exalted Potentate of Pool.
And just for the record I have never split a pot, but then again I always get knock out after my first 2 matches...... Damn double elimination! How's a guy supposed to warm up!?!?
What did John Lennon and Thomas Merton have in common?
They were both killed by fans! LOL! That cracks me up every time!


This thread was most likely in response the recent Mezz West Tour stop at Hard Times that split the pot among the final three.

In Oscar's defense, the owner of Hard Times did not want to pay the employees overtime until 6 AM for them to finish the tournament. Oscar mentioned this on the live stream when they decided to split the top three's money. Also, there was ONE very slow player that finished just outside the top three that had something to do with the lateness of the tourny. That player's pace held up the brackets needing a conclusion of his matches.

 

[RonRosas]

Damn! who is that handsome player?
Haha
hi Malibu!
Lets meet at million dollar on sunday!

 

[WGDave]

I was responding to the below reply, I started this post and did not even go to or know what happened at the Mezz event. As you can see from all these posts splitting the pot didn't just start 3 weeks ago.
"Malibu" Mike Murphy
Thee Most Exalted Potentate of Pool.

Yes, splitting or chopping has been around forever. However, your original post talks about recent professional tournaments at Hard Times. Please enlighten us to the other recent professional tournaments that ended in a split.

What did John Lennon and Thomas Merton have in common?
They were both killed by fans! LOL! That cracks me up every time!

That's priceless! (Your Lennon and Merton attempted joke)

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5271949