How much dough to go pro as a woman?

S

SalsaVerde

Registered
I hear that there are a lot of women who play pro-level, but don't consider going professional because it costs a lot of money to go win qualifiers and then even more money to travel to professional tournaments after they qualify. Does anyone have a ballpark figure for how much you think it would take for a good regional player to make it to professional status? And how many women do you think are out there who could play on the pro tour, but just aren't on there due to lack of money or time, etc.
 
SalsaVerde said:
I hear that there are a lot of women who play pro-level, but don't consider going professional because it costs a lot of money to go win qualifiers and then even more money to travel to professional tournaments after they qualify. Does anyone have a ballpark figure for how much you think it would take for a good regional player to make it to professional status? And how many women do you think are out there who could play on the pro tour, but just aren't on there due to lack of money or time, etc.
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Sure, here is the deal. Here is the money stats from 04, from the wpba web site>
1
Allison Fisher
1250
$53000


13
Sarah Ellerby
345
$13800

If you come in and take over #1 in the world immediately it figures in 05 you will make what Allison did in 04, 53K. You will have to travel to 15 events all over the country and you will spend a grand a week so you will net $38,000, about what a secretary makes typing letters. Realistically you will not become #1 over night, nobody has ever done that and this takes years to do. The best you can expect is to come in 13th, that is spend $15K to make 13.8 K and lose l.2K on the year. Rempe on the men’s tour when he was on top once did his taxes at the end of the year and found it was all a push and he played for a year to break even.

This is why 2/3 rd's the them are no longer real pros because they can't make a living being one. They all have day jobs and play at acting like pros on the weekend. Their day jobs pay for the lost week ends they usually lose money on. If you do not make your living with your cue and that is your only source of income then in my book you are not a pool pro, you are a amateur semi pro which is what most of the women are today. If you are not in the top 10 with serious endorsements and backing from table and cue people you are doomed. These are the cold hard facts.


Go out there without a backer and you will end up on your back. That has been done before also as one lady hall of famer will confess to. :D
 
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It sure costs a lot less than it used to. When Karen Corr was qualifying for WPBA events, much of it in 1999, not only were there fewer regional tours, but there were just four spots available per event through the qualifier system. The result was that she had to travel all over the country playing qualifiers to earn her shot. Sarah Ellerby had to endure a similar experience in 2001.

Now there are many more regional tours and many more spots available through the qulaifier system. As long as you live in striking distance of at least one WPBA regional tour, you can take many shots at earning your way onto the WPBA tour without ever buying a plane ticket.

For example, somebody living in Florida can play the 2005 Ladies Spirit Tour, which has ten WPBA qualifiying events, and can even drive to the two
SEAL tour events in Georgia that are WPBA qualifiers. That's a qualifier a month, which is pretty good.

Find somebody to share a ride and a motel room with at tournaments to keep your expenses in check. If you're clever, you can probably keep your per event expenses under $150.

If you don't live within striking distance of a WPBA regional tour, it will cost you far more, and if the WPBA tour is a dream you're very committed to, you should consider relocating.
 
dandydude said:
Sure, here is the deal. Here is the money stats from 04, from the wpba web site>
1
Allison Fisher
1250
$53000
Click to expand...
The WPBA website would omit winning in some WPBA sanctioned events that are not tour events, such as the $25,000 Allison won at the Challenge of champions, the $10,000 she won at the Amway Cup, money she won at the Atlanta Open, money she won in some of the events hosted by Mr T in Nanuet NY, and money won in the World championships. I'd rather not take the trouble to compute the number, but my guess is that Fisher made closer to $120,000 in prize money in 2004.
 
sjm said:
The WPBA website would omit winning in some WPBA sanctioned events that are not tour events, such as the $25,000 Allison won at the Challenge of champions, the $10,000 she won at the Amway Cup, money she won at the Atlanta Open, money she won in some of the events hosted by Mr T in Nanuet NY, and money won in the World championships. I'd rather not take the trouble to compute the number, but my guess is that Fisher made closer to $120,000 in prize money in 2004.
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I never said that Fisher or Lee are not making out like bandits. I am saying if you are #13 you are so screwed its not funny. The total prize money in Atlanta was $25K, Fisher came in 3rd so at best she broke even for the weekend. It was a pool hall event and on Sunday there were only 45 people there to see it and maybe 6 pro ladies left around. Real glamorous. The other 55 left town before the finals so they could be back at their day jobs on Monday morning. Did number #13 get to play in the challenge of champions, no. You miss my point, if you are out of the top 10, you are doomed or now working for UPS or working on your back.
So many will just not face the reality of this. :D
 
sjm said:
The WPBA website would omit winning in some WPBA sanctioned events that are not tour events, such as the $25,000 Allison won at the Challenge of champions, the $10,000 she won at the Amway Cup, money she won at the Atlanta Open, money she won in some of the events hosted by Mr T in Nanuet NY, and money won in the World championships. I'd rather not take the trouble to compute the number, but my guess is that Fisher made closer to $120,000 in prize money in 2004.
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Plus endorsements. :eek:
 
dandydude said:
You miss my point, if you are out of the top 10, you are doomed...so many will just not face the reality of this.
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Dandy, I didn't miss your point, which is well taken. As you say, only the best can make a living at it. Further, there's really no way to reach the upper echelons of the WPBA tour without becoming a Top 16 seeded player, and I think those that are incapable of reaching the Top 16 are, for the most part, playing women's pro pool as a hobby, rather than for profit. Even so, those who play it as a hobby, in my opinion, contribute a lot to the sport, and, in my opinion, remain a breath of fresh air at WPBA events.
 
sjm said:
It sure costs a lot less than it used to. When Karen Corr was qualifying for WPBA events, much of it in 1999, not only were there fewer regional tours, but there were just four spots available per event through the qualifier system. The result was that she had to travel all over the country playing qualifiers to earn her shot...
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SJM, when Karen Corr came to the States from Ireland, she was already hitting 'em pretty sporty and was considered a "champion" at that time. IOW, I think she already had game when she got here. ;)

sjm said:
...Now there are many more regional tours and many more spots available through the qulaifier system....
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You know, I'm glad you brought that up. In the men's tour, I haven't seen any qualifier. In order to join the organization, you pay the membership fees and you're in like Flynn. What's with that?

The Planet Pool 9-Ball Tour has some qualifiers for some upcoming ladies tournaments. With the CAT Tour closing its doors, the PP 9-Ball Tour may have more qualifiers. At least that's the buzz I heard sitting on the rail. :p

sjm said:
Find somebody to share a ride and a motel room with at tournaments to keep your expenses in check. If you're clever, you can probably keep your per event expenses under $150....
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I know some players who do this kind of car-pooling and sharing expenses. Most times, they are very young, and oftentimes, it ends up in verbal disagreements. Personally, I'd rather have my own private room, and come and go at my own whim.

It's still a very real fact that in today's pool world, the expenses far outweigh the payouts. IMO, this is an area that the "governing bodies of professional pool" should be looking into instead of all this competitive crapola. It is a very real problem for any person aspiring to go pro, man or woman.

sjm said:
If you don't live within striking distance of a WPBA regional tour, it will cost you far more, and if the WPBA tour is a dream you're very committed to, you should consider relocating.
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It's the impossible dream for some. I will say this, though. I believe that the year 2005 is the year that the ladies' payouts will exceed the men's. I was very happy to see the last BCA Open pay $15,000 for first place to both the women's and men's events in Vegas. :)
 
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JAM said:
SJM, when Karen Corr came to the States from Ireland, she was already hitting 'em pretty sporty and was considered a "champion" at that time. IOW, I think she already had game when she got here.
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You are correct. I attended Karen's WPBA debut at the Brunswickk NY Classic and also her second WPBA event in Prescott, Arizona. She played well in both and posted a top ten in both. But traveling all over the country put some wear and tear on her in the early days, and most of today's ladies can qualify for the tour in their own backyards. Karen spent a lot of money getting her career off the ground.

JAM said:
You know, I'm glad you brought that up. In the men's tour, I haven't seen any qualifier. In order to join the organization, you pay the membership fees and you're in like Flynn. What's with that?
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This has been a long term difference in philosophy between men's and women's pro pool. WPBA events have a predetermined field size, and the WPBA must, therefore, have a comprehensive field selection methodology. today's methodology is touring pros (between 35 and 40 of them last I checked), then qualifiers through the regional events, and after that, invitation is based on WPBA ranking. Men's pool, and there are exceptions, has unlimited field size, rendering a qualifying system unnecessary.

JAM said:
The Planet Pool 9-Ball Tour has some qualifiers for some upcoming ladies tournaments. With the CAT Tour closing its doors, the PP 9-Ball Tour may have more qualifiers. At least that's the buzz I heard sitting on the rail.
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That's great news, JAM.

JAM said:
I know some players who do this kind of car-pooling and sharing expenses. Most times, they are very young, and oftentimes, it ends up in verbal disagreements. Personally, I'd rather have my own private room, and come and go at my own whim.
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Sharing a car and motel room may not enhance the fun, but it does imporve the economics. Whether it's advisable will vary from player to player.

JAM said:
It's still a very real fact that in today's pool world, the expenses far outweigh the payouts. IMO, this is an area that the "governing bodies of professional pool" should be looking into instead of all this competitive crapola. It is a very real problem for any person aspiring to go pro, man or woman.
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Well said!

JAM said:
It's the impossible dream for some. I will say this, though. I believe that the year 2005 is the year that the ladies' payouts will exceed the men's. I was very happy to see the last BCA Open pay $15,000 for first place to both the women's and men's events in Vegas.
Click to expand...

I believe that the first prize has been $15,000 for both the men's and women's BCA Open champions for many years.
 
jam said:those who play it as a hobby, in my opinion, contribute a lot to the sport, and, in my opinion, remain a breath of fresh air at WPBA events.


I think it goes deeper than this. They are saving pool and the game, keeping it from dying. The God of pool will bless them for this. When the men did a kamakazi in flames into the deck after camel folded the women stayed on TV and kept the game going. It makes me furious to see those who run this game put these people, men and ladies in positions of poverty and virtual slavery. Those doing that have become millionaires off the game many times over. It is an outrage that the top 25 pros can not all make a upscacle living and the top 5 are not all making a million a year. That is not the pool players faults, it the organizations who cant find sponsors and can't get their acts together. Snooker did it in England while we all fell on our swords here performing hari kari in the usa. I am very pro player but I will not write about this issue with rose colored glasses as the industry does. Kids who are thinking about doing this need to know what they are walking into and the odds are badly stacked against them. Many waste a decade of their lives before they wise up and get a real job.
 
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dandydude said:
jam said:those who play it as a hobby, in my opinion, contribute a lot to the sport, and, in my opinion, remain a breath of fresh air at WPBA events.
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Actually, I said that.

dandydude said:
I think it goes deeper than this. They are saving pool and the game, keeping it from dying. The God of pool will bless them for this. When the men did a flaming kamakazi in flames into the deck after camel folded the women stayed on TV and kept the game going.
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Nicely put, and you're right, those women who lose (and expect to lose) money playing pro pool are, at least to a point, unselfish benefactors of the women's pro game.

dandydude said:
Snooker did it in England while we all fell on our swords here in the usa.
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To be fair, this is only true on the men's side. There was no money at all in women's snooker, which is why the stars of women's snooker crossed the Atlantic to play nine ball.
 
Quote:To be fair, this is only true on the men's side. There was no money at all in women's snooker, which is why the stars of women's snooker crossed the Atlantic to play nine ball.[/QUOTE]

Reply:
I will always wonder how it might have been if there was no money in mens English snooker or the cig and liquor money ran out a decade ago and Steve Davis, Stephen Hendry and Jimmy White all showed up together one day in the USA to play full time 9 ball. I would venture to say in 6 months after they got the speed and patterns down they would have ran over the men here like Allison did to the ladies when she showed up. I think it would have been a bloody slaughter, like custers last stand. The English would have been the Sioux. It's a nice one to ponder and to argue over. One of those what if's.

We know what happened to all the american stars when they ran over to England to get into the booty, Miz, Rempe, Sigel, Pretty boy and Ewa, they came back humbled and destroyed. They were totally out of their leagues.


:D
 
dandydude said:
I will always wonder how it might have been if there was no money in mens English snooker or the cig and liquor money ran out a decade ago and Steve Davis, Stephen Hendry and Jimmy White all showed up together one day in the USA to play full time 9 ball. I would venture to say in 6 months after they got the speed and patterns down they would have ran over the men here like Allison did to the ladies when she showed up. I think it would have been a bloody slaughter, like custers last stand. The English would have been the Sioux. It's a nice one to ponder and to argue over. One of those what if's.

We know what happened to all the american stars when they ran over to England to get into the booty, Miz, Rempe, Sigel, Pretty boy and Ewa, they came back humbled and destroyed. They were totally out of their leagues.


:D
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There's nothing to argue about. All you have to do is check out the WPC every year. Every year, snooker players are invited, and every year, they go home empty-handed. Do some do well? Sure. Any of them ever win? Nope. Aside from Drago and Davis (Steve, that is), who both play a good bit of 9 ball, hardly any of them even finish well.

Snooker and 9 ball are two totally different games, with different tables, cloth, balls, and pockets. Pattern play and strategy are totally different (for instance, side pocket shots), which take time to learn. (There is a strategy in 9 ball, no matter what the *ahem* "world-beaters" on this forum who think it's a "brain-dead" game say.) Granted, I think it's easier for someone with the pocketing ability of a snooker player to possibly be good at 9 ball than vice versa, but it's not a given. I've seen great one-pocket players totally suck at 9 ball, and I've also seen the opposite, even though both games involve the same table, cloth, and balls (well, not as many for 9). That's due totally to the different strategies of the games.

Simply put, if one puts in the effort to learn the intracacies of a particular game, he'll be good at it - if not, he won't.

-djb
 
JAM said:
The Planet Pool 9-Ball Tour has some qualifiers for some upcoming ladies tournaments. With the CAT Tour closing its doors, the PP 9-Ball Tour may have more qualifiers. At least that's the buzz I heard sitting on the rail. :p
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JAM,

I certainly hope this doesn't happen and I will address this with the WPBA office.

Planet Pool is NOT a WPBA sanctioned Regional Tour. If they are to host Qualifiers for the women then they should play by the same rules the rest of us Regional Tours have to follow. And first and foremost would be paying out 100% of the prize fund instead of pocketing 50% that they do now.

Barbara
 
There are ways to make money without actively working at the moment. They're called royalties from building/ buying assets. These can come from various sources, but ALL of them require upfront work---lots of upfront work. Be prepared to spend several hours a day on the phone and elsewhere building up an asset(s) that then will pay you automatically every month.

Then you don't have to ask "how much?", as you're in control of that amount.

But once established, asset income can allow anyone to do whatever s/he wants, while getting paid at the same time. Any pool freaks like us, not just pros, would benefit from asset income.

Where to get this automatic cash flow? Lots of places, not just from pool product endorsements. I'd check out Jennette Lee's progress in this area, as she's a master at it, imho.

Jeff Livingston
 
SalsaVerde said:
I hear that there are a lot of women who play pro-level, but don't consider going professional because it costs a lot of money to go win qualifiers and then even more money to travel to professional tournaments after they qualify. Does anyone have a ballpark figure for how much you think it would take for a good regional player to make it to professional status? And how many women do you think are out there who could play on the pro tour, but just aren't on there due to lack of money or time, etc.
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OMG, this thread has gone to hell. Male-bashing, American-bashing... GREAT!

Anyways, I seriously doubt snooker players are about to usurp men's pool. Aside from the why-would-they-bother factor, male professional pool players are far more seasoned than their female counterparts. The fact is, American women's pool is still developing. You have yet to see what an American woman can do at this game which is why the female snooker players were capable of such success when they jumped the lake. But make no mistake of it, any male snooker player who thinks they can take a week in Virginia and knock off a few Americans is in for a big surprise and I don't care how good a cueist he may be. Even the great Allison Fisher & Karen Corr needed to immerse themselves in the game in order to achieve success and this is (as I stated) in a field that is still developing. I assure you, in time (assuming the industry doesn't completely go under), in order to be successful as a female pool player, one will need to have an exclusive pool background starting at a very young age.


Jude M. Rosenstock
 
Barbara said:
JAM,

I certainly hope this doesn't happen and I will address this with the WPBA office.

Planet Pool is NOT a WPBA sanctioned Regional Tour. If they are to host Qualifiers for the women then they should play by the same rules the rest of us Regional Tours have to follow. And first and foremost would be paying out 100% of the prize fund instead of pocketing 50% that they do now.

Barbara
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Barbara, last year the PP 9-Ball Tour, one of the BEST-RUN in the country I might add, did have a couple of qualifier events for the ladies. One of the qualifiers was for the Cuetec championship in Canada and was won in Richmond, Virginia, by the lovely Japanese player Miyuki Sakai.

BTW, Barbara, I have NEVER seen PP 9-Ball Tour pocket "50 percent that they do now."

This pool world needs more regional tours just like PP 9-Ball Tour, and I applaud Mike Zuglan, the staff of the PP 9-Ball Tour, Mike Janis, Tommy Kennedy, and all of the other dedicated regional tour directors. Without them, things would be a little one-sided.

There is a real dilemma that currently exists with aspiring pool players. Folks should applaud these regional tours, not state false claims such as them "pocketing 50 percent." This is absolutely false, ESPECIALLY as it relates to the Planet Pool 9-Ball Tour.

JAM
 
I agree with both of you in the professional pool/snooker discussion. Snooker players arent gonna win any 9 ball events anytime soon, unless they dedicate themselves. Also, its pointless if they are already earning a decent living, to come here and earn a lousy living. If snooker players ran out of money, and emmersed themselves in the game, i think snooker players could dominate. Look at Steve Davis now. He always does well in the world championships, the world pool masters, mosconi cup, and whatever other event he plays in. I heard him say in an interview that he only plays 4 9-ball tournaments a year. Based on his current performance, i think Steve Davis, if he dedicated a year to 9-ball, could possibly dominate. But, like i said its pointless for him. Steve Davis is not ever expect to win any Snooker events either, he isn't even a top snooker player anymore. If the top guys from snooker gave up the game and started playing 9-ball, i think that they could possibly dominate.
 
JAM said:
Barbara, last year the PP 9-Ball Tour, one of the BEST-RUN in the country I might add, did have a couple of qualifier events for the ladies. One of the qualifiers was for the Cuetec championship in Canada and was won in Richmond, Virginia, by the lovely Japanese player Miyuki Sakai.

BTW, Barbara, I have NEVER seen PP 9-Ball Tour pocket "50 percent that they do now."

This pool world needs more regional tours just like PP 9-Ball Tour, and I applaud Mike Zuglan, the staff of the PP 9-Ball Tour, Mike Janis, Tommy Kennedy, and all of the other dedicated regional tour directors. Without them, things would be a little one-sided.

There is a real dilemma that currently exists with aspiring pool players. Folks should applaud these regional tours, not state false claims such as them "pocketing 50 percent." This is absolutely false, ESPECIALLY as it relates to the Planet Pool 9-Ball Tour.

JAM
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JAM,

I apologize for the "50%" remark. It was an erroneous assumption. My problem with PP hosting Qualifiers is that it undermines the WPBA's Regional Tour system. If the women want to compete for a Qualifier then they should make the effort to travel to a Regional Tour's event. After all, if they want to win a Q then they want to play in the WPBA and they should realize the time and expense it's going to cost them.

What percent of the prize fund do they pay out?

Barbara
 
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