How much of a cueball is useable normally?

[Cron]

What does that image look like with say a 12mm tip & max LH English.
Seems I'm further out that your outer circle but I can't lay my tip on there to see what it would look like.

That image is points of contact, so in your case you won't be using your tip center for point of contact (guessing ~5mm from edge).I imagine to you it looks like the outer most edge of cue and ball are about 6mm away or eclipsing 6mm.

Somebody around here has done all this work already based on actual evidence, I've seen it years back but can't find it.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

What does that image look like with say a 12mm tip & max LH English.
Seems I'm further out that your outer circle but I can't lay my tip on there to see what it would look like.

This is about a 12.75mm (1/2") tip width with a ~dime/nickel curvature. With a 12mm tip (and the same curvature) your tip's center would be aimed at the same places.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...if someone has a 10mm tip and states it's shaped as a dime, is the tip actually the complementary shape of a dime?

It's the same shape as a dime's edge. This drawing compares dime and nickel shapes (and shows what that means).

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Not sure what a cue tip is...

Nobody's sure - there's no formal definition. I like to express the amount of tip offset from centerball as a percentage of maximum spin (based on the actual contact point). For instance, the pic above shows "1/3 of maximum", "2/3 of maximum" and "maximum". In the drawing I call those 1, 2 or 3 "tips", but you might say those = 1/2 , 1 or 1 1/2 "tips". That's why I don't like the term "tips of english" - it means different things to different people.

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

This is about a 12.75mm (1/2") tip width with a ~dime/nickel curvature. With a 12mm tip (and the same curvature) your tip's center would be aimed at the same places.

pj
chgo

View attachment 544608

Cool illustration, as always! But I thought a half tip of english is when the edge of your shaft is lined for cb center, because it puts your tip half a tip left or right of center. Have I had it wrong all these years?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Cool illustration, as always! But I thought a half tip of english is when the edge of your shaft is lined for cb center, because it puts your tip half a tip left or right of center. Have I had it wrong all these years?

Yes - so has everybody else.

See my last post above.

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

Nobody's sure - there's no formal definition. I like to express the amount of tip offset from centerball as a percentage of maximum spin (based on the actual contact point). For instance, the pic above shows "1/3 of maximum", "2/3 of maximum" and "maximum" (= 1, 2 or 3 "tips"). Since there's no real definition of "tips", you might say those = 1/2 "tip", 1 "tip", etc. That's why I don't like to use the term "tips of english".

pj
chgo

But it's very easy to use your tip as a gauge. Aiming the cue line for dead center cb is zero english. Aiming 1/2 a tip left or right would simply mean aiming the cue line exactly half the width of your tip left or right of center cb.
This is typically the formal way of measuring or talking about english. At least I thought has been for many years, including in most instructional books.

 

[BC21]

Yes - so has everybody else.

See my last post above.

pj
chgo

Ok. Lol.

For the record....I aim through the center of my tip, not through the point where my tip contacts the cb. So I'll stick to using the easy common sense way of describing a half tip or full tip of english based on how far the tip is from ccb. :wink: One full tip means I could fit another full tip between ccb and the edge of my tip.

 

[3kushn]

But it's very easy to use your tip as a gauge. Aiming the cue line for dead center cb is zero english. Aiming 1/2 a tip left or right would simply mean aiming the cue line exactly half the width of your tip left or right of center cb.
This is typically the formal way of measuring or talking about english. At least I thought has been for many years, including in most instructional books.

Since you want to strike the CB at least within 1/2mm of your target and tip diameters run from say 10mm - 14mm, using statements like 1/2 tip of English will produce wildly different results.

Place your CB 1/2 diamond from the long rail and opposite on of the diamonds.
Then aim for the opposite diamond. Where is your tip when it rebounds 1 diamond left or right of your starting position. Placement for 1 diamond, 2 diamonds, 3 diamonds. Of course you can also find 1/2 diamond places too.

Once you determine your tip placement then you can quantify your spin and fairly accurately calculate 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th rail contact points. If you take a tangent off the OB sending the CB perpendicular to a rail, you now know tip placement to move 1,2,3 diamonds across the width and 2,4,6 diamonds going the length of table, simply using 1,2,3 diamonds (tip placements) of English.

 

[BC21]

Since you want to strike the CB at least within 1/2mm of your target and tip diameters run from say 10mm - 14mm, using statements like 1/2 tip of English will produce wildly different results.

Place your CB 1/2 diamond from the long rail and opposite on of the diamonds.
Then aim for the opposite diamond. Where is your tip when it rebounds 1 diamond left or right of your starting position. Placement for 1 diamond, 2 diamonds, 3 diamonds. Of course you can also find 1/2 diamond places too.

Once you determine your tip placement then you can quantify your spin and fairly accurately calculate 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th rail contact points. If you take a tangent off the OB sending the CB perpendicular to a rail, you now know tip placement to move 1,2,3 diamonds across the width and 2,4,6 diamonds going the length of table, simply using 1,2,3 diamonds (tip placements) of English.

I understand this completely. I know exactly how many diamonds I get with what I call a touch of spin, which when measured via the width of my tip is about an eighth of its diameter, or what I get with a half tip of spin. So I call it an eighth of a tip of spin or a half tip or whatever, based on what it looks like when compared to striking dead center cb. I like having an easy standard like that, a nice visual guage to measure exactly how far out from ccb I want to strike the cb. Using the same speed, my half tip or quarter tip of spin may produce slightly different results than yours, based on tip size, but knowing what that amount of spin will do is more important than knowing what to call it. The results won't be too far off.

Having a standard makes it easier to explain to someone else how to hit a certain shot, like... "Use medium speed with half a tip of left english." Of course your medium speed might not be my medium speed, so we're going to get different results. But aiming 1/2 a tip left will produce a very similar hit on the cb, unless your tip is 10mm and mine is 14mm.

Most pool players use 12 to 13mm shafts, and the difference there is not enough to worry about. If your shaft is 10mm or 14mm then that is not the norm, not the standard, so a standard or normal half tip of spin will be different for you. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't call it a half tip of english. It's easier to say "use a tip of outside" than to say "use the tip placement that gives you 3 diamonds of movement", or "use the tip placement that gives you 37% of maximum spin"...lol.

 

[Cron]

It seems to me that in training the point of contacts of both objects should be demonstrated by giving a X,Y of the ball (which ultimately clock hands do this in illustration). I don't think there is any other constants. Even mentoring the word 'tip' opens the gates of ambiguity.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

But it's very easy to use your tip as a gauge.

Sure - I even think of it that way sometimes, because I know what "a tip" is for me. But I also know there are different size tips, different definitions of "tip", etc. - so I know it means different things to different people. So if I want to describe a specific amount of tip offset...

pj
chgo

 

[BC21]

Sure - I even think of it that way sometimes, because I know what "a tip" is for me. But I also know there are different size tips, different definitions of "tip", etc. - so I know it means different things to different people. So if I want to describe a specific amount of tip offset...

pj
chgo

If you have to describe a specific amount of tip offset for a certain shot, how do you do it? No illustrations, no showing, just a standard definition that anyone can use and understand due to it being something easily recognized and performed.

I'm just saying there should be a standard that a newby can go by. Sure, different tip sizes produce different results. But aiming half your tip's width from center cb is a very accurate description/instruction that most people can easily comprehend. If you have an 11mm shaft then you'll aim the center of your tip about 5 or 6mm from ccb. With a 13mm shaft you'll aim it 6 to 7mm from ccb. The difference in these two half tip positions isn't enough to actually make a difference. Hitting center cb with 1mm is very important. When applying side spin, however, it ends up being more experience/feel based, so if the standard 1/2 tip puts me 1mm farther or closer to ccb than your 1/2 tip, it's nothing that experience and speed can't balance out.

There needs to be a standard on this, what a half tip or full tip looks like. Lol. I am surprised there isn't. And I wouldn't use your idea of aiming half a tip from ccb but calling it 1 tip. I'd call it what it is. I mean.... when we aim a half ball shot we aim half the cb's width from ccb, and we call it a half ball shot. We don't say to aim 1 full ball from ccb. It should be this self explanatory on the tip end of the shot also.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If you have to describe a specific amount of tip offset for a certain shot, how do you do it? No illustrations, no showing, just a standard definition that anyone can use and understand due to it being something easily recognized and performed.

I like describing the contact point's distance from center in commonly used terms: either "1/4 inch" or "1/2 of maximum", for instance.

I wouldn't use your idea of aiming half a tip from ccb but calling it 1 tip. I'd call it what it is.

When everybody else agrees that's "what it is", I might too. Until then I'll stick with less ambiguous terms.

P.S. It's not my idea - I heard others describe it like that. There are several "common" definitions out there, including "the size of a chalk mark". Good luck standardizing it - I'm right behind you.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...I aim through the center of my tip, not through the point where my tip contacts the cb.

Here's a simple way to translate that to pretty accurate contact point measurements - I call it "thirds to fourths" - it's based on the ratio of a ball's curvature (radius) to a typical tip's (3:1).

It's also a handy way to calibrate the effect of sidespin - on my practice table, for instance, each 1/4 of sidespin = 3/4 diamond of crosstable angle change when kicking.

pj
chgo

 

[3kushn]

I understand this completely. but knowing what that amount of spin will do is more important than knowing what to call it. The results won't be too far off.

But aiming 1/2 a tip left will produce a very similar hit on the cb,

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't call it a half tip of english. It's easier to say "use a tip of outside" than to say "use the tip placement that gives you 3 diamonds of movement"

Ok, I'll bite off on this.

Your asking for a standard and I suppose you can use fractional tips but you're also saying its more important to know what a certain amount of spin will do. I don't disagree with that but here's my question. If tip placement is the only consideration and accepting that everyone is constrained within the boundaries Bob Jewett called out and Patrick illustrated, why is it I can't get the same action on the CB as say Venom. Why doesn't everyone get the same action?

What I'm getting a is, I believe everyone has different capabilities and even though you and I may contact the same point on the CB, the results are going to be different. If my assumption is close to accurate, then tip placement is personal and needs to be discovered personally.

It's not important to get deeper into clocking in this conversation, and I'd probably not talk to a Newby at all about any of this stuff. They have more problems than calculating CB spins. In the newby case I'd just say Left or Right, High or Low and hope they actually hit the general area.

You can accept or not what I'm suggesting as far as putting numbers to the spins.
It's pretty simple, everyone can count to 3 and most can multiply those numbers by 2. Finding your personal tip placements and a little simple math is a huge start learning how to clock. Of course practice.

I rarely play pool, so maybe none of this really important in that game. What if the only way to kick a ball laying in the pocket is with English since other paths are blocked? Wouldn't it be nice to know how?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I believe everyone has different capabilities and even though you and I may contact the same point on the CB, the results are going to be different.

I agree people have different capabilities, but I don't think hitting the same spot on the CB (at the same speed and angle) can have different results - I think their different capabilities make them hit different spots/speeds/angles.

pj
chgo

 

[Cron]

I agree people have different capabilities, but I don't think hitting the same spot on the CB (at the same speed and angle) can have different results - I think their different capabilities make them hit different spots/speeds/angles.

pj
chgo

It doesn't, which is why I don't understand why instructional aids don't simply use X,Y. I've seen it in _SOME_ aids (not many at all).

This is a 14 by 14, but it probably should be a 10 by 10. People can visual smaller sections like 5 to the the left 5 to the right, thus 20% steps. So if you were using 20% steps, instead of -2, 2 like in the picture, you could use -2, 2.3 and the 2.3 could easily be visualized between 2 and 3 (which would then be 46% whichever direction from 0% or 0,0... center).

Yeh I know, you're wondering how long it took me to get my P.H.D. in graphic arts... about 12 years.

 

[BC21]

Ok, I'll bite off on this.

Your asking for a standard and I suppose you can use fractional tips but you're also saying its more important to know what a certain amount of spin will do. I don't disagree with that but here's my question. If tip placement is the only consideration and accepting that everyone is constrained within the boundaries Bob Jewett called out and Patrick illustrated, why is it I can't get the same action on the CB as say Venom. Why doesn't everyone get the same action?

What I'm getting a is, I believe everyone has different capabilities and even though you and I may contact the same point on the CB, the results are going to be different. If my assumption is close to accurate, then tip placement is personal and needs to be discovered personally.

It's not important to get deeper into clocking in this conversation, and I'd probably not talk to a Newby at all about any of this stuff. They have more problems than calculating CB spins. In the newby case I'd just say Left or Right, High or Low and hope they actually hit the general area.

You can accept or not what I'm suggesting as far as putting numbers to the spins.
It's pretty simple, everyone can count to 3 and most can multiply those numbers by 2. Finding your personal tip placements and a little simple math is a huge start learning how to clock. Of course practice.

I rarely play pool, so maybe none of this really important in that game. What if the only way to kick a ball laying in the pocket is with English since other paths are blocked? Wouldn't it be nice to know how?

I agree with all this.

I just think it'd be beneficial in the learning process, when a player's stroke is consistent enough to start dabbling with english, to have a standard tip placement for a typical "half tip" of english, or "1 tip" or whatever. In Phil Capelle's book, "Play Your Best Pool", he shows 1.5 tips as max from center cb. Yet in Mike Shamos's "Encyclopedia of Billiards" he refers to tips in a manner like PJ, where 1 tip from ccb is actually aiming 1/2 a tip from ccb. I find that to be very ambiguous. I wonder how there has been no standard definition of what a "tip" of english looks like if illustrated?

 

[Cron]

I wonder how there has been no standard definition of what a "tip" of english looks like if illustrated?

Because it's variable.

I can see how some person, a long long time ago described to another person where to hit the ball based on a "tip", but that was an inner perspective. Also, it was wrong as the diameter of a tip matters so insignificantly it can be ignored. The only standard you might need is how many segments are in the 2D representation of any given ball of any size, but that could be (and probably should be) decided by the person visualizing the graph, matrix, Cartesian plane. lattice, grid.... whatever you want to call it.

There could be better ways, but at least use a system that: 1. Can be learned in 60 seconds 2. Has no ambiguity 3. Taught worldwide 4. Is so old that even if you forgot it, you'd know without any doubt that any given reference would be correct.

A tip is variable, cannot be defined and instantly brings to mind the question: Your tip or mine? Then consider that it is only the point of contact, velocity and angle that matters, it's really of no use. But, I guess someone could try to define it, although they might as well call it a "widget" or a "Thingamajig" (or "Bob", you can name anything Bob).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI_8I0BoJr4