how should i address this shot?

scottycoyote

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
it seems like everytime i have a long cut with the ball near the rail.....im able to english the ball in with outside english (ex, object ball down a little from side pocket and off the rail, cue ball over near the middle of the table, i cue with low outside english and i dont miss), but of course this doesnt suit the shape i need all the time, how should i be cueing and aiming the ball if outside english is inappropriate, im tryin to get it in my head
 
I like to throw that shot in with outside english once in awhile myself.

If you want to learn to play shape on that shot you can do the following:

Mark the cueball location on the table with some chalk or one of those hole re-inforcer stickers and do the same with the object ball.Shoot that shot over and over and over expermenting with different types of english and speed.If you are undercutting or overcutting (with what ever english you are using) make the nescesary adjustments.Observe where the cue ball goes with whatever english you use.When this shot comes up in a game, you will know exactly what to do. Best of luck, RJ
 
I Aggree, What they said, LOL. I have been in love with this game for about 20 years, does not make me an expert, but have had alot of ups and downs with these sort of shots. The only difference for Me is I shoot them both in and out, I also hit on all parts of each side depending on what shape I need, in relation to to what's in the way, and what is working best with My stroke at the time. The jab stroke, and the throw as mentioned are also a art form of their own, only gained from practice, and lots of it. The better feel you get of these shots, can mix them up effectively, and understand how to make ajustments, the more deadly you can become, as you can get what ever shape you need providing you have the speed down, but be warned, If you take it to that level you are prone to burnout splurts. this happens to alot of good players. It can also play tricks on your mind, and make you think that you don't have to put as much time in on practice. Not a good thing. This seperates the big dogs from the fishes IMHO. The more You practice at these shots, as mentioned the better you will become. They will eventually become second nature, and you will start seeing the run farther in advance. There's also a key to this stuff IMO on how well you can see the curve of the cue before contact. If you don't read it correct It can be a bad night. the shot will cut too thin, and then too tight when you adjust. I've played on some felts that just plain confused the mess out of Me. I would not get in a money game unless I was atleast 99 percent on these type shots minimum. Which does'nt happen for me as much now as I have not been getting in My practice. I do ocassionally still have a good night, and walk out out with a grin and deep pockets.
To setup practice, do as mentioned. Try shooting both in and out depending on what will work for shape. start cueing just off center, both inside and out, center ball. set up the spot where you want the cue to end up, and practice doing so many of each in a row like that until you can make them all the time. then practice them at different speeds, making ajustments in your aim to compensate for speed. Once you have that down you can practice moving above and below center to change angles of shape until you feel confident with those. after all this you should start to get a feel for It, and can start making ajustments to go farther inside or out as needed. One of those training balls would probably be a big help, to see where you are cueing, and also the spin and affect of the cueball. Do not concern yourself with scratches during the initial practice, as It will only hurt your confidence and serves no purpose. at first you are just trying to make the object ball in the pocket. As you progress the scratching problem will improve as you learn to pull shape from the shot. The farther off middle you go, the more can go wrong, and the higher the odds the shot will be missed. that's the reason for starting off safe. It builds confidence. This is what I think of as a safe platform. It is a place that you are familiar with from all the practice, and can use, just to make sure you can get the object balls down, and rely on your shot making capability, until you get the speed, and curve of the felt down and start tearing It up on some really great shape. Watch other shooters who are running racks. You will notice some stay in the safe area of the cueball, and others are switching up on english. playing the safe spot is better odds for sure, downfall in my opinion is It is not as versatile for every possible shape that may come up. Going farther outside is risky but pays off in a big way when it does, and can produce some amazing shape. Rule of thumb you can learn from both shooters, jusy try to be as flexible as you can in your shot without doing more than you need to and you will have the best odds for your level at the time you are shooting. watching others play IMO is the best way to warm up before practice. You can aquire your stroke before even setting hands on a table in some cases.


"Good Luck with Your game"

Greg
 
How to address this shot !

As Art Carney once said to Jackie Gleason about a golf shot -

"HELLO BALL"!

TY & GL
 
OldHasBeen said:
As Art Carney once said to Jackie Gleason about a golf shot -

"HELLO BALL"!

TY & GL
lol thanks

i have a hard time inside thinning a shot , seems like the squirt always gets me, ill practice it tonight, was hoping someone had a neat system for this shot, cuz the outside english is an automatic for me for some reason.
 
scottycoyote said:
lol thanks

i have a hard time inside thinning a shot , seems like the squirt always gets me, ill practice it tonight, was hoping someone had a neat system for this shot, cuz the outside english is an automatic for me for some reason.


Honestly, the reason why it's an automatic for you has to do with your confidence and nothing more. English-induced throw is something that you will only see when you're hitting a significant portion of the object ball. On thin hits, you're really not hitting enough of the object ball to throw it off it's intended course. The only exception that I've been witness to would be skids but I'd rather not travel down that road.

I know you've probably heard this a thousand times by now but the best approach to learning a shot is through practice. Start off with a cut you feel comfortable doing with center ball, shoot a few times and proceed to make it thinner and thinner until you've reached your target. Do the same thign with inside, outside, draw, follow, etc. Trying to come up with an aiming system is simply a crutch. Practice will give you a genuine feel for the shot and will make you more confident when slight variations arise.

We all have interesting little quirks in our game that are difficult to explain at times. This is all due to confidence and the best way to acquire confidence is through practice. I can write a laundry list of the things I do wrong when I'm not confident in what I'm doing. A lack of confidence can lead to stearing, jumping up, excessive body-english and jabbing. Often times, this is your culprit more than anything else. In pool, as is the case with most things in life, you reap what you sow.


Jude M. Rosenstock
 
scottycoyote said:
it seems like everytime i have a long cut with the ball near the rail.....im able to english the ball in with outside english (ex, object ball down a little from side pocket and off the rail, cue ball over near the middle of the table, i cue with low outside english and i dont miss), but of course this doesnt suit the shape i need all the time, how should i be cueing and aiming the ball if outside english is inappropriate, im tryin to get it in my head
Unless you have given up on trying to play position, you need to be able to make the shot with inside, outside and nothing. The only way to learn the shot is with practice. I think the sort of practice called "progressive practice" is the best way to do it: start with a short easy shot, if you make the shot, make it harder, but if you miss the shot, go back to an easier position. Be sure to practice at different speeds, which is to say taking the cue ball different distances after contact.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Honestly, the reason why it's an automatic for you has to do with your confidence and nothing more. English-induced throw is something that you will only see when you're hitting a significant portion of the object ball. On thin hits, you're really not hitting enough of the object ball to throw it off it's intended course. The only exception that I've been witness to would be skids but I'd rather not travel down that road.

I know you've probably heard this a thousand times by now but the best approach to learning a shot is through practice. Start off with a cut you feel comfortable doing with center ball, shoot a few times and proceed to make it thinner and thinner until you've reached your target. Do the same thign with inside, outside, draw, follow, etc. Trying to come up with an aiming system is simply a crutch. Practice will give you a genuine feel for the shot and will make you more confident when slight variations arise.

We all have interesting little quirks in our game that are difficult to explain at times. This is all due to confidence and the best way to acquire confidence is through practice. I can write a laundry list of the things I do wrong when I'm not confident in what I'm doing. A lack of confidence can lead to stearing, jumping up, excessive body-english and jabbing. Often times, this is your culprit more than anything else. In pool, as is the case with most things in life, you reap what you sow.


Jude M. Rosenstock[/QUOT


Well put,

I must say that is the only sure fire method to It I know of. I am sure that someone has a good system, But imagine It all boils down to the same thing in the end. Practice builds Confidence. When at the level that I can read the run and complete racks is usually when I've been putting my table time in. I can't play just once a week and expect to not hardly miss a shot. But sometimes when I am confident and been getting enough time in, Feels Like I can't miss a shot in the end. On the inside of that shot It seems as if i just know where It is automatically, and can read what I call the curve, (guess what is called squirt) I guess it's like other sports, It's like being in a zone. I am not focusing as well as people watching think, I really am, but It becomes almost second nature for the most part. Kind of like a sharp shooter, only I'm getting shape most of the time within a inch of where I need the cueball for the next shot. and I don't rely on one speed or type of stroke to make the cut. I use what ever works best for the situation. Some nights I have to play It safer more in the middle, using mostly one, or two strokes, and it gets me by against decent competion. I just try to be honest with myself on what My confidence level is at the time, and adjust with what I can keep a handle on at a time. That way I don't beat my confidence down and start missing the easy stuff too. Sometimes I regain It from Starting off more middle and then By the end of the night I am hitting them way outside middle cue when I have to. for the most part I keep it simple, and stay in line with the run but eventually these shots come up, and speed is crutial to get back in line that is the reason I like switching up strokes as well. I do not really recomend it, as i well know it can actually be quite confusing not using a steady stroke everytime, and has burned me out before.
Within the last five years or so My competition has not been my biggest enemy as far as My confidence level goes, My own Mind is. the more practice I get before matching up with serious players, the better off I am. I actually play better when the competitions steep most of the time, even at semi pro level or better. not to say I can win at that level consistently enough, or I'd be playing for a living, But I can hang around sometimes when feeling good, and that helps build confidence focus against the usual shooters, and small time hustlers. I've trained my mind to find good things in even a well fought loss against a better player, or one as good that matches up well, is strong mentally and can hang in there all night. this helps to deal with confidence problems, but if My games off, it's just off, the way it is, my confidence goes down on shot capability, and shape follows, it all falls apart, I'm jabbing, and getting up. any attempt to correct It, even though i know what I am doing wrong, is worthless. A first grader could wipe the floor with me, This usually happens when I have not played in a while.
Another thing, I used to could not stand getting beat in the old days, now if theres nothing on the line It does'nt bother me in the least if i know i can win anway. Can't make It through the first round of a tournament anymore it gets so bad sometimes. Yet i can clean the guy out that wins It after the match in the same day. I need to train Mind to think of them As money games, and maybe it will help. I used to do very well in them, back when I still wanted them bad enough. It's like i have become over confident to the point where I am plain lazy from it. And the acumulation of lazy bad shots can lead me to a confidence issue of sort. I usually get to the tourneys late, and pretty much get no practice, so sure that is adding to the problem.
Another thing I have had a problem with getting too use to laying down when playing for fun. It's no fun to win every rack against a buddy, Goes past the point of bragging rights after a while. Eventually i feel bad, get lazy, and It carries on in my game, and level of play. I like to play someone My level or even just a little better to keep me focussed, and build My confidence that way to build up for better players, but it's getting where that does'nt work anymore because when I start going through them they won't play anymore. but if I let them have enough games they will play all day long. I am a firm believer that getting wipped over and over makes you focus, and stronger to overcome, thats why does not bother me when someone is able do It to me. But some must think otherwise, and are worried about there confidence going down. Sure is hard to stay in a good game that challenges me enough to focus, and get back on top of my game, without there being high stakes involved. Not looking to loose my money,or take someone elses to get one, just want to stay in a good game that keeps Me focus.
As mentioned, LOL Obviously, I am no stranger to quirks in my game either, I have a million of them also as you can probably tell, just like all the others that's been there.I'm sure any real pool players have had them at some point also. all part of the game.
The shot is actually easy to reproduce over and over with practice, and a high confidence level. keeping the english simple at first, And working your way out as you become confident with It. straight middle is always the best start. could'nt aggree more about thinning the ball at first. that will give you the feel, builds confidence, and allow you to work on shape from there with small english & angle ajustments, as well as how full or thin the object ball is hit.
I heard It said since many times, and Someone that's now passed away gave me the best advice when I was younger and first learning, he told me to use the KISS theory. Had no idea what he was talking about, so I bit, said what's that, and he said "Keep it simple stupid". Still to this day I think of that when I am getting too carried away, and go back to basics. sure makes running balls alot easier, as It really slows My speed down, and keeps them just rolling in on the end of that slow stroke, teasing my oponent before they drop. also easier to see the cuts also with a consistent stroke.
Keep working on it and you will get It down.
The problem I have now and see some pros practicing, is that long rail shot where you have a decent angle, but the cue ball is real far away making it hard to draw back down table for shape on the back rail. Even miss the shot and get the shape, or make the shot and no draw, or scratch in the side. This shot comes up alot on the money balls it seems like. I can pull It off with inside english following through and get the job done, but the draw is harder for me to do then before. I've switched up on every stroke to make sure I was not jabbing, checked My mechanics, made sure I stayed down, but not much help. Never had this problem before. Think the cue I am using just not getting it done on that paticular shot. does not want to draw that deep. I am in the proccess of building a couple of hard hitting cues now, might have to take one over if it will pull this shot off.

Anway, Happens to us All, keep stroking, and good luck with your games.

Greg
 
When you use outside spin you reduce the friction when colliding with the object ball inside stuff increases the friction causing a fatter hit. Chances are if your missing thin that you're not compensating enough for squirt.
 
kyle said:
When you use outside spin you reduce the friction when colliding with the object ball inside stuff increases the friction causing a fatter hit. Chances are if your missing thin that you're not compensating enough for squirt.


You're right, there is some deflection (squirt) when using inside english that may cause a shooter to undercut but in my opinion (and I mean that sincerely), this is something that a shooter should be aware of but do nothing about. All of the top players I've ever discussed this with can attest that they do not make "squirt calculations" prior to shooting. You simply have to practice through it. That isn't to say it will disappear rather your brain will begin to make its own adjustments. By making conscious decisions to compensate for things like squirt or throw, the shooter is actually inhibiting his natural growth. I know I said it before and it's been said before but you really just have to practice the shot until your arm falls off.


Jude M. Rosenstock
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
You're right, there is some deflection (squirt) when using inside english that may cause a shooter to undercut but in my opinion (and I mean that sincerely), this is something that a shooter should be aware of but do nothing about. All of the top players I've ever discussed this with can attest that they do not make "squirt calculations" prior to shooting. You simply have to practice through it. That isn't to say it will disappear rather your brain will begin to make its own adjustments. By making conscious decisions to compensate for things like squirt or throw, the shooter is actually inhibiting his natural growth. I know I said it before and it's been said before but you really just have to practice the shot until your arm falls off.


Jude M. Rosenstock





Yep, Start simple and the rest will follow. I do not really focus on compensating for squirt, or throw, either when in the zone, It's more second nature as far as that goes. I compensate for the shot, but the practice programs your brain to caculate that by it'self over time, and many of the same shots over and over. Example, for the most part, the way I see the shot that i decide on shooting, at first glance, is usually on the money, when I second guess, or i over think the shot, It tends to force a miss, or shape comes up short. I am not saying I jump on every shot that way, but what I mean is that my mind has a pretty good track record of coming with the caculations on It's own, and usually automatically inserts them into my aim, from years of playing, practicing and watching other players. It's just in the feel I guess. I do still have to do alot of the figuring on shots, and which to go with for Myself, the old fashion way. I Can't say I never compensate for squirt, But over all not good for My game. Causes me to hit the pocket over or under in the same places. makes It harder to hit dead center pocket for some reason. And just plain too confusing overall. Some nights I have done It and It worked out great for me, other nights ruined My whole game, it's just too inconsistent for me, or I would apply It in my game more. Usually If I have to compensate for it, it's just a night full of brain farts for me, and nothing is going to help If my mind Is not in the game. I've tried real hard to work through it at times, and sometimes do, But if my brain is only hitting on 3 cylinders I am in trouble for the most part.
If you want this shot in your arsonal bad enough you will aquire It automatically, either through practice, game play, or both. Still to this day I will shoot shots a-- backwards in a game from what shape i need, just to see if I can do it the other way. Thats How I learn alot of shots. Ofcoarse usually only do this with players I can afford to do It with, or don't mind losing to, in case I get locked up on shape, and can't finish. I try to make the best of any table time, even if no real challenge. I just challenge Myself in My own mind. Got to want it, and it will come.

Good luck Guys
 
scottycoyote said:
it seems like everytime i have a long cut with the ball near the rail.....im able to english the ball in with outside english (ex, object ball down a little from side pocket and off the rail, cue ball over near the middle of the table, i cue with low outside english and i dont miss), but of course this doesnt suit the shape i need all the time, how should i be cueing and aiming the ball if outside english is inappropriate, im tryin to get it in my head

For the best of your game, accuracy, etc., it's really best to master the center ball punch shot, focusing on ball speed, not spin.

On this shot I typically hit the cue ball, center, a tip below center, or a tip above center depending where I want the cueball to go. Unnecessary side spin adds an element of inaccuracy to your game. Under pressure, it's easy to misjudge the spin - and it will result in more misses.

My first choice on this sort of shot is no english. I control the cue ball by sending it back and forth rail to rail. Most of the time you can get on your next shot just by judging which side of the table the cue ball stops at.

The picture below shows position A, B, and C. Notice how you can get position on all other shots on this table just by controlling the speed of the shot?

Chris
 

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TATE said:
For the best of your game, accuracy, etc., it's really best to master the center ball punch shot, focusing on ball speed, not spin.

On this shot I typically hit the cue ball, center, a tip below center, or a tip above center depending where I want the cueball to go. Unnecessary side spin adds an element of inaccuracy to your game. Under pressure, it's easy to misjudge the spin - and it will result in more misses.

My first choice on this sort of shot is no english. I control the cue ball by sending it back and forth rail to rail. Most of the time you can get on your next shot just by judging which side of the table the cue ball stops at.

The picture below shows position A, B, and C. Notice how you can get position on all other shots on this table just by controlling the speed of the shot?

Chris


That's actually a slightly difficult version of one of the most common shots in 9-ball. To be a competent 9-ball player, you'll need to be comfortable hitting that shot with anything but ESPECIALLY with outside-draw. You need to know this shot inside-out.


Jude M. Rosenstock
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
That's actually a slightly difficult version of one of the most common shots in 9-ball. To be a competent 9-ball player, you'll need to be comfortable hitting that shot with anything but ESPECIALLY with outside-draw. You need to know this shot inside-out.


Jude M. Rosenstock

There are two mistakes I see a lot of players make in this regard.

1 -They think spin helps them aim the shot. Maybe they get in a habit of spinning the ball in - well it will break down under pressure.

2 - They try to go up and down the table with spin to get an easier shot instead of side to side. This is "B" player stuff. Easier is making this cut shot, not messing with the scratch, and getting the easy position, which is the natural position.

I guarantee anyone who doesn't already do this that if they practice this shot for an hour and play position to shoot a ball downtable as diagrammed, they will find a whole new world in their run out power.

I think a player needs to practice all kinds of english. The key is knowing when to use it and not to count on it to bail you out of lazy pattern play.

Chris
 
TATE said:
There are two mistakes I see a lot of players make in this regard.

1 -They think spin helps them aim the shot. Maybe they get in a habit of spinning the ball in - well it will break down under pressure.

2 - They try to go up and down the table with spin to get an easier shot instead of side to side. This is "B" player stuff. Easier is making this cut shot, not messing with the scratch, and getting the easy position, which is the natural position.

I guarantee anyone who doesn't already do this that if they practice this shot for an hour and play position to shoot a ball downtable as diagrammed, they will find a whole new world in their run out power.

I think a player needs to practice all kinds of english. The key is knowing when to use it and not to count on it to bail you out of lazy pattern play.

Chris



The Last part was The key point, and a great point at that. I could not sum It up any better. got to know your own limitations in any given night, especially early in the night. If you have to shoot the next shot long, to make the shot your on, It's better to have a long shot with a good angle then to mess the shape up, or miss the current shot from forcing to much english on It to get perfect shape. Speed of the cueball after the shot is really important, but how I would shoot the shot to get shape on the 2 ball, early on in a night, before I get My confidence built up, and start pushing more english is- I keep It simple, play the short rails with the cue just like the diagram shows, I hit the back rail the arrow is pointing to, and bring the cue back to near where It first made contact with the 1 ball ball. the angle of the shape left on the 2 will let be draw and drift the cueball back with a slow enough stroke to hit the rail near the same place again, where contact was made with the 1 ball in the first place, and leave shape on the 3 ball. Basically I just bring the cueball back to around same place each time. I have learned to be accurate on the shots left from this shape, therefore it feels like a safe zone for me, and helps with consistency problems. Ofcoarse later in the night when feeling good, I start using slighty more english to soften the angles of the shape left. On the 2 ball you don't have to go to the extreme I go to, you could come of the back rail at a straighter angle to get shape on the 3ball, I just feel more confident with that paticular shot, so I have a high percentage rating with It. It does require controlling quite a bit of spin out, so I don't really recomend it, as alot can go wrong.
I am constantly changing my style of leaves and shot making to suit My game at the time. If I try to practice a shot at any given time, I can tell pretty early on if I am going to pick up on it well enough, or not with more practice. If I don't like what i am seeing, then that shot is out until I am seeing it better, and I find an alternative to get me by until I do. Keep in mind that is how i have to do it these days because I don't get nearly the amount of practice i used to, and it gets me by.
The feel of your stroke, and reproducing It on the same shot when it comes up is key to staying safe in your shot making. Loose play Is rare at pro level, but a few have been able to master it, so depends on the person I guess. I must admitt there is quite a bit of loose play in my game when I get on a roll, but it always starts with a safer style of play in the beginning. Being able to play tight when you have to, can be a good thing. has helped Me through some tough matches, where Me and My oponent slap wore each other out mentally.
The mind is the worse enemy, Can't let the long shots scare you into forcing english too early. Just be happy with a good shot for shape on the next ball. practice the long shots and be done with it. If you stick to that, you will be suprised at how much closer the shape will start becoming automatically, as your speed control increases. Speed is key IMHO.

Greg
 
scottycoyote said:
lol thanks

i have a hard time inside thinning a shot , seems like the squirt always gets me, ill practice it tonight, was hoping someone had a neat system for this shot, cuz the outside english is an automatic for me for some reason.

If you know that squirt always gets you with inside english, then why don't you simply aim thicker?

Yes,... it's that easy.

Fred
 
Fred Agnir said:
If you know that squirt always gets you with inside english, then why don't you simply aim thicker?

Yes,... it's that easy.

Fred


Hey Fred,

Caught Your story in the january issue. Great read, hope to see more like It. Keep up the good work.


Greg
 
Fred Agnir said:
If you know that squirt always gets you with inside english, then why don't you simply aim thicker?

Yes,... it's that easy.

Fred
still workin on my compensation for squirt.....im gettin there
 
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