How Should I Have Played This Shot

[DaveK]

You're WRONG, the diamond system is ALWAYS true; I have never seen a table yet were I didn't place the cue ball in one corner, hit diamond three on the first rail, and have it hit diamond two on the third rail.

This diamond system is well documented, and called "System of 5" if I recall. I believe I first read of it in Fels ... anyway, I find it very reliable too. I test all tables I play on, using the 5-3-2-corner shot illustrated in this thread. My observations are that some adjustment may be required to pocket the cb. Perhaps that's the final leg as suggested above, but some tables I've found play a bit long or short to the third rail. Also, the system works possibly best for the 5-3-2-corner route. Try 2.5 - 0.5 - 2 - corner, or 6.5 - 4.5 - 2 - corner and you'll see what I mean.

I still use it all the time ...

Dave

 

[Bob Jewett]

IMO, there is no system that is always true. That's just not possible.

Well, of course DeadAim was exaggerating for effect, but his underlying point is a good one. Even on tables that have very different cloth and cushions, the third-cushion contact point for the corner-five system (which is the system he illustrated) is remarkably consistent. Will it always get you within a quarter ball of where you want to hit? Of course not. Will it get the hit on a ball near the third cushion even on most tables that are new to you? Yes, with a little practice of the speed and english. Of course it's hard for a beginner to know the optimum speed and spin to keep the third rail hit constant for varying tables. Practice.

What is far less constant is where the cue ball hits on the fourth cushion.

Speaking of lousy tables, I was playing on Valley 7-foot tables one time and I had to go three cushions to hit the object ball which was on the long rail a diamond up from the corner pocket. I figured to play the standard pattern, as shown above, but a little shorter to move up the rail (like from 6 to 5). The table played so incredibly long that the cue ball hit the end cushion for the fourth cushion and then hit the object ball. People applauded when I made the hit. I didn't get a chance to find out if some of the cushions were actually broken, but I was nervous the rest of the match whenever I had to use the rails.

 

[Rod]

I've seen some incredibly long cushions as well. Too soft and they just won't hold the rebound angle. It's scary even for a one rail bank. They need plenty of speed, unfortunately we can't always play the shot that way.

Rod

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi Folks,

Does someone want to weigh in on the subject of rail contours? I remember a while ago, someone questioned k 66 or G(?) 77 profile for rails. I believe Diamond and Gabriels have been using Artimus rubber. What effect does rail shape have on billiards?

 

[Bob Jewett]

Does someone want to weigh in on the subject of rail contours? I remember a while ago, someone questioned k 66 or G(?) 77 profile for rails. I believe Diamond and Gabriels have been using Artimus rubber. What effect does rail shape have on billiards?

It's Artemis from Germany. See http://www.artemis-kautschuk.de/en/Produkte/index.html for their billiard products. Some of their profiles are shown there. Other brands I've heard recommended are Kleber and St. Michel.

The current issue of On The Break News has the first of a set of articles on cushions by Pat Sheehan. See page ten of the current issue at http://www.onthebreaknews.com

 

[mjantti]

Well, of course DeadAim was exaggerating for effect, but his underlying point is a good one. Even on tables that have very different cloth and cushions, the third-cushion contact point for the corner-five system (which is the system he illustrated) is remarkably consistent. Will it always get you within a quarter ball of where you want to hit? Of course not. Will it get the hit on a ball near the third cushion even on most tables that are new to you? Yes, with a little practice of the speed and english. Of course it's hard for a beginner to know the optimum speed and spin to keep the third rail hit constant for varying tables. Practice.

What is far less constant is where the cue ball hits on the fourth cushion.

Speaking of lousy tables, I was playing on Valley 7-foot tables one time and I had to go three cushions to hit the object ball which was on the long rail a diamond up from the corner pocket. I figured to play the standard pattern, as shown above, but a little shorter to move up the rail (like from 6 to 5). The table played so incredibly long that the cue ball hit the end cushion for the fourth cushion and then hit the object ball. People applauded when I made the hit. I didn't get a chance to find out if some of the cushions were actually broken, but I was nervous the rest of the match whenever I had to use the rails.

I'm familiar with corner-five system. It's well explained in Winning One Pocket and as far as I've tried it on pool table, it's surprisingly accurate. But, in that book there is also noted that worn cloth and new cloth play differently. That's what I didn't like about DeadAim's comment, because he says there is no difference between the different circumstances.

I found out that because pool tables play so differently, I might use diamond system to give some idea about the contact point and then adjust the rest by feel. I've played some 3C as well and noticed that these diamond systems are more accurate on 3C equipment. Don't know why... maybe because different carom tables are more alike or I just haven't seen much bad carom equipment

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi Mikko,

About two years ago, the Upstate New York Brunswick dealership signed up to distribute Gabriels products. They took the Gold Crown III's out of their billiard room and replaced them with Gabriels Vector tables. They played great except for one thing. The rails were Artemis K 66. All the knowledgeable players had problems with both position and kicks. They played so different from the Brunswick rails. In this case, the diamond system didn't work correctly. Not because the system is flawed. We felt the shape of the tip of the rails was completely different causing the cue ball to leave the rail after contact at an angle different than we were used to. Kind of like a rail set at an incorrect height causing a ball to "jump" off it. Once the players got enough hours on the tables, we agreed that the Gabriels were more "correct" than the Brunswicks. For those who might question the table setup. The same guy who did the tables in that room was flown to Vegas to set up the tables for the Mosconi Cup. He is very good. Any further thoughts?

 

[mjantti]

Hi Mikko,

About two years ago, the Upstate New York Brunswick dealership signed up to distribute Gabriels products. They took the Gold Crown III's out of their billiard room and replaced them with Gabriels Vector tables. They played great except for one thing. The rails were Artemis K 66. All the knowledgeable players had problems with both position and kicks. They played so different from the Brunswick rails. In this case, the diamond system didn't work correctly. Not because the system is flawed. We felt the shape of the tip of the rails was completely different causing the cue ball to leave the rail after contact at an angle different than we were used to. Kind of like a rail set at an incorrect height causing a ball to "jump" off it. Once the players got enough hours on the tables, we agreed that the Gabriels were more "correct" than the Brunswicks. For those who might question the table setup. The same guy who did the tables in that room was flown to Vegas to set up the tables for the Mosconi Cup. He is very good. Any further thoughts?

Agreed. Sometimes the angles get messed up by bad table installing or bad table condition. I heard about a tournament where they had a few tables with the other short rail loose. So, every time a player played position, he had to adjust if it was the loose and slow rail or the normal and fast rail. Kind of frustrating even if you know the flaw is there...

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi deadaim,

I guess you and me have somewhat similar backgrounds. I had the luxury of growing up while Irving Crane was still in his prime and playing in the room I worked in part time. Years later, after an altercation with the room owner over Mr. Crane, I moved with most others to a relatively new room across town. A young kid showed up and cleaned tables for free practice time. Talk about a natural. Showed him some things along with many others. He then showed us a thing or two. He left and went on the road with another local favorite and great player in his own right, Larry "The Iceman" Hubbard. One of my favorite local memories was watching Jim beating Mike 200 - 195 after trailing 195 - 5. We are both lucky beyond belief to have had players of that caliber to teach, play and learn from. When you see Jim, Richie, Doc, Dennis, Ed M., please say hello from the guys at Classic Billiards in Rochester. And thanks for taking the time to continue to post rather than giving up.

 

[mjantti]

Hey DeadAim. I got you now, you were talking about the diamond system and how it works.

And you're right, a great player doesn't necessarily make a great teacher of the game. I think there are many pros who don't actually know what they are doing exactly, they just do it and it seems to work...

 

[dinovirus]

It looks like you’re going to get 3 safed here unless you take a chance and split the cluster up.

This looks like one of the lets take a chance shot, it looks like a basic “diamond system” shot.

The cue ball in a little above cue ball position 6 ½.

Shooting trough diamond 1 ½ will bring you back to diamond 5 on the third rail; now you’re stuck,
this is were should have checked the tables tracking off the third rail before you started shooting.
If the tracking was true like a “billiard table” you have a better than even chance of hitting the three ball and pocking the nine.

This might be a good time to start learning some kicking systems and practicing them.

I agree with this kick, because tying up the 3 and 9 is a little too touchy for me. It's too easy to leave a shot at either the combo or at the three if you hit it a little too hard. I like DeadAim's kick, but I would add that the 7 ball is a tough ball to beat, but that if you are able to miss the 7, then the cue ball is about guarenteed to hit the 3, even if it misses on the way in by as much as 2 ball widths, it will have so much running english on it that it should lengthen enough to at least wick the 3. The cueball will run up table and the 3 will be anchored by the 9. That's how I would play the shot, aim to the 1.5 diamond (roughly, my priority is to miss the 7 with the kick) hit about 2 o'clock on the cue ball and stroke my brains out.

As Nick Varner would say, this is a good opportunity to really mess with your opponents head.

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi Deadaim,

We do know the same people!!!!! Richie and I once had a contest to see who had the worst attitude. On that day, he won. I'm sure I've won a few times as well. Many years ago, some of my local friends bought me a "crying towel". I'm sorry to say I earned it. Amazing what maturity can do!

If we're talking about the same Ed M., I bought my playing Schon from him at the single elimination event won by Pat McNally, held at the Holiday Inn in Scranton about twelve years ago. He owned a pool room at that time. I'm not sure he still does. Does "Little Mikey" McLain still play?

Bob "Mouse" P. is a great guy. I had fun playing with all of the guys we know through the years. Sorry I'm going to miss the PA State 8 Ball. I commited to Vegas the same weekend. Good luck to you though! Please say hello to them all.