How Sweet it is!!!!!!!

[Banker Burt]

I don't see no.2 as being unethical. If someone has the energy and time to organize a mini-qualifier, and the players agree to participate under those conditions, the he is simply serving a market. If their cut is seen as too big, then there is an opportunity for the players or someone else to set up an event that suits the players better.

Good event managers earn a lot of money for their talents in the real market. Managing events requires effort and costs.

Dear Colin,
While I agree that "Open Marketing" is invaluable maybe to the economy of a country, I do not think we are talking about the same thing.

Pool players in general have financially struggled for lifetimes to simply play a game they love. This includes a great number of the top players in America. Then the IPT comes along, which I think is great for those who were chosen, but the rest of us would like a fair reasonable chance to qualify.

For those who were not selected it is a very costly expense vs. return ratio and a then a very "Tough hill to climb" as you have stated many times.

I just do not think that fairness can be equated, if in fact a person is able to make more money at running one pre-qualifier than maybe even the actual players that do qualify only for another qualifier.

It seems that the IPT is showing a tremendous amount of support and creating great opportunties for the card-holders than is actually being done for the sport, leaving the rest of us poor saps to decide whether to donate or not to donate.

Don't get me wrong, I fear no player on any given day, but let's face it, if you are not holding a card today, their are many a great players that will never get a chance and the reasons are endless. As far as any person who holds a pe-qualifier purely to give good players a reasonably financial chance, I cheer you.

I also think that after time we will here how it is just too costly for players to qualify and with too many loopholes for people to take advantage of non-IPT cardholders.

 

[Gabber]

Do you actually know any tour caliber players? Yes, but does it matter?I know quite a few, and they view the IPT as the chance of a lifetime and would do anything for a shot at getting in. Ted, of course the IPT is a must for the TOP players because there is the chance to earn some real money. I can play but I am under no illusions- ie, I know the dif between good amateur and someone who plays to pro standard. If someone were to sponser me I would enter a Q tourny but not with my own money! LOL

Why don't you spend some time educating yourself instead of sitting on the sidelines criticizing the IPT and talking crap about things you know nothing about?

Ted, just look at the posts above. There are many who see where this is headed. The IPT now seems to be giving money away for nothing! Does that make good buisness sense to you? Or is there an alternative motive?

Her is a prediction. Pretty soon you will be able to buy shares in players.


Oh, BTW. Did you see Deo's last post? The big announcement is that there will be a big announcement. LOL


Gabber..........you gotta laugh

 

[Colin Colenso]

Dear Colin,
While I agree that "Open Marketing" is invaluable maybe to the economy of a country, I do not think we are talking about the same thing.

Pool players in general have financially struggled for lifetimes to simply play a game they love. This includes a great number of the top players in America. Then the IPT comes along, which I think is great for those who were chosen, but the rest of us would like a fair reasonable chance to qualify.

For those who were not selected it is a very costly expense vs. return ratio and a then a very "Tough hill to climb" as you have stated many times.

I just do not think that fairness can be equated, if in fact a person is able to make more money at running one pre-qualifier than maybe even the actual players that do qualify only for another qualifier.

It seems that the IPT is showing a tremendous amount of support and creating great opportunties for the card-holders than is actually being done for the sport, leaving the rest of us poor saps to decide whether to donate or not to donate.

Don't get me wrong, I fear no player on any given day, but let's face it, if you are not holding a card today, their are many a great players that will never get a chance and the reasons are endless. As far as any person who holds a pe-qualifier purely to give good players a reasonably financial chance, I cheer you.

I also think that after time we will here how it is just too costly for players to qualify and with too many loopholes for people to take advantage of non-IPT cardholders.

Hi Burt,
I have a lot of sympathy for the many very good players who could be driven broke trying to get onto the tour.

That's one reason I wouldn't want to see the IPT put restrictions on some entrepreneureal activities that give players a chance to enter the qualifiers without having to fork out a bundle.

I'm imagining a scenario where pool rooms or simply a promoter purchase (or guarantee purchase of) qualifier entries. Then via single events or a series of events the spot is awarded. If they can make money organizing this, then there is an incentive for them or others to make more such events.

The more of these low entry events the more chances the good players will have to play in the qualifiers without such a large investment.

For example, the league I run is sponsoring 2 league players to enter the qualifier in Shanghai. I am running this event so that good players here will have something to aim at. I am losing money on this deal, but I hope that the event will be a success here and attract bigger sponsorship and broadcasting in the future, and I also hope that local clubs will run more and more mini-qualifiers so the good players can get their spots without much cost. And that everyone including myself can eventually profit from it so it can grow bigger and better.

I'd like to think we are on the same side...that is, in the interest of the game and the players. Perhaps we just differ on the idea that it would be good for mini-qualifier event runners to profit from their activities.

Hope what I said made some sense

Best regards,
Colin

 

[jjinfla]

Here is a prediction. Pretty soon you will be able to buy shares in players.
Gabber..........you gotta laugh

Maybe not players, but I sure would like to buy shares in the IPT if it goes public.

But then now that I think about it if someone sponsors a player for the qualifier and that player wins his tour card doesn't the sponsor in actuality have a share of the player. It's almost as good as being a part owner of a horse in the Kentucky Derby.

Jake

 

[jjinfla]

I
1) If the IPT is recommending these pre-qualifiers to promote the IPT (which Deno has specifically stated in his post) why were they played in a completely different format than the the actual tour format?
ie: double elimination vs. round - robin

Probably because round robin would take too long. But then I think it would have been interesting to have each player play every other player twice, alternate breaks, and the two players at the end with the best average would be the winners. A mini round robin.

Jake

 

[onepocketchump]

Hi Burt,
I have a lot of sympathy for the many very good players who could be driven broke trying to get onto the tour.


Best regards,
Colin

I have no sympathy for player trying to get on the IPT. It is no less costly to be a professional tennis player, a professional golfer, a professional volleyball player and so on.

All of these tours feed off of the masses of amateur players trying to go pro.

The whole thing with letting others earn along with the pro is simply a way to share the burden. If Joe Blogs, my british friend's fictional player, wants to get on the IPT and he can convince five people to back him then those five people should be able to get a share of the winnings for the risk they take.

Golfers have backers, Poker players have backers, the IPT is just doing this in an open way. The PGA has never put out an open call for backers as far as I know but I can imagine that there might be plenty of people who are eager to "invest" in players on the PGA.

As far as to whether this is a pyramid scheme as has suggested by one particular person who is geometrically challenged in my humble opinion, it is not. It does have elements of multi-level marketing which is not surprising given that Kevin has an extensive background in the MLM field. This is not a big deal. If ten people from a local poolroom want to invest in a player then that's their business, just like it's their business if they want to invest in Amway products. A pyramid scheme promises far greater rewards for the simple act of investing. That is the incentive for investing and that which has been deemed illegal. The IPT promises no such thing, returns on investment over the intitial amount are 100% performance based.

If I put up a $1000 for a player to play in the IPT qualifier and they put me down as a reference and I get $100 back for the referal then my investment at that moment is simply discounted to $900. My chances to win more for my investment are not diminshed however.

Also any player who signs themselves up should put someone else down as a referrer (is this actually a word?) so that they can effectively get their entry fee discounted by 10%.

The concept is quite good in my opinion. I honestly can see a future where poolrooms are sending their best players off to the IPT. As far as whether this benefits the locals at all, I don't know. Here in Charlotte we have Jack Nicholas Cadilac and Dale Jarret Ford, two entities that probably wouldn't exist if someone hadn't backed these sports stars way back when. I am sure the employees of these two companies appreciate the opportunity to work. Same thing for John Elway's AutoNation - bought by the Japanese for upwards of several hundred million I think.

Anyway, how about when pool players start making serious dough and reinvesting it in their local economies? The money flows and we all get good entertainment out of it.

Lastly, once again, if the IPT takes off then it WILL generate a pool revival leading to many many more millions of people taking up pool seriously. This is good for EVERYONE in the billiards business from hustlers all the way up to the president of Brunswick Billiards.

John Barton - would like a 10% share of Kelly Fisher please.

 

[onepocketchump]

Ted, of course the IPT is a must for the TOP players because there is the chance to earn some real money. I can play but I am under no illusions- ie, I know the dif between good amateur and someone who plays to pro standard. If someone were to sponser me I would enter a Q tourny but not with my own money! LOL

If so, then it just make you a thief. If you are the kind of person who would take someone's investment when you know that you have no chance to get a return on that investment you are nothing more than a common thief - that which you claim Kevin is.

If you are the kind of person who would put up his own money to try and qualify then you are the kind of person worth investing in. That is simply a character trait.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

Investment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investment

Network Marketing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_marketing
"The term network marketing is used in two ways. In popular usage it is a synonym for multi-level marketing and often mistakenly considered the same as a pyramid scheme."

Multi-Level Marketing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing

As one can see the shared revenue that the IPT offers is neither Network Marketing nor Multi-Level Marketing and CERTAINLY NOT in any way resembling of a pyramid scheme.

It is pure and simple an INVESTMENT opportunity that is solely based on the PERFORMANCE of the investment object, the player.

That's it.

John

 

[Gabber]

JJ,

But then now that I think about it if someone sponsors a player for the qualifier and that player wins his tour card doesn't the sponsor in actuality have a share of the player. It's almost as good as being a part owner of a horse in the Kentucky Derby.

Yes, isnt it.

Gabber............doesnt see how GAMBLING can enhance the reputation of POOL in the eyes of the American public, ie the intended audience..???? Has'nt that ALWAYS been the problem?
The general perception of pool in America [ and some other countries where they have also seen The Hustler'.] is that Pool isnt a sport, its a seedy and corrupt way to 'hustle' people out of their money?'
Now we have the only man in America who is not allowed on tv because he can never back up his claims trying to convince the US public that pool is a REAL sport!

 

[onepocketchump]

JJ,




Yes, isnt it.

Gabber............doesnt see how GAMBLING can enhance the reputation of POOL in the eyes of the American public, ie the intended audience..???? Has'nt that ALWAYS been the problem?
The general perception of pool in America [ and some other countries where they have also seen The Hustler'.] is that Pool isnt a sport, its a seedy and corrupt way to 'hustle' people out of their money?'
Now we have the only man in America who is not allowed on tv because he can never back up his claims trying to convince the US public that pool is a REAL sport!

Being part owner of a race horse is an investment and a gamble. As is EVERY investment. It is also the highest risk to the investor as there is a huge outlay of money before the performace can be tested for real and after the event there is still expenses to be paid. A person who simply gambles makes no before and after investment in the entity. No sponsorship at all, no money to the participants, no expenses, just winnings and losses.

It doesn't matter though how you want to spin this. Kevin has already made a signifigant investment into this game and it's players. He is offerering a way for many more to invest if they choose to. Nothing you can say or do will change that. I hope they highlight the gambling aspect of pool, the hustle, the road because those are the romantic fantasies that most Americans want to believe in. The life of the gunfighter is always more entertaining.

Pool is probably never going to be seen as a squeaky clean sport and nor should it. Pool should be proud of it's heritage as a game for kings and commoners alike, a game where all hustlers, be they Enron executives or Bowery Row bums are only as good as their last shot. Where the only thing it takes to be a champion is the ability to pocket that 8 ball when the pressure is on, when your case dollar or a hundred thousand is on the line.

Right now, Kevin Trudeau is pool's best hope of bring that to the public on a weekly basis. ESPN won't do it, the UPA won't do it, the WPBA won't do it, the BCA is incapable of it so right now it's the IPT which offers the players and the fans a great opportunity.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

JJ,




Yes, isnt it.

Gabber............doesnt see how GAMBLING can enhance the reputation of POOL in the eyes of the American public, ie the intended audience..???? Has'nt that ALWAYS been the problem?
The general perception of pool in America [ and some other countries where they have also seen The Hustler'.] is that Pool isnt a sport, its a seedy and corrupt way to 'hustle' people out of their money?'
Now we have the only man in America who is not allowed on tv because he can never back up his claims trying to convince the US public that pool is a REAL sport!

World Poker Tour

 

[Gabber]

If so, then it just make you a thief. If you are the kind of person who would take someone's investment when you know that you have no chance to get a return on that investment you are nothing more than a common thief - that which you claim Kevin is.

If you are the kind of person who would put up his own money to try and qualify then you are the kind of person worth investing in. That is simply a character trait.

John

I,m a nice guy but I take offence when someone calls me a thief. You better take that back.

Any normal person can read from my post that I think that the chances of me winning 2 tournaments to get into the IPT are low. NOT IMPOSSIBLE, but low. Anyones chances of winning 2 tournys in a row are slim. If someone thinks I am worth investing in, why would I refuse. I have nothing to lose and much to gain.
Just because I might be a long shot doesnt make me a thief because someone wants to take a gamble on me.. If I wasnt good enough in their eyes then they wouldnt invest in me, so your whole accusation about me taking money under false pretences is moot.

I might disagree with you but I would never personally attack you in an internet forum. I dont know you and you dont know me.

Gabber....pretty sure G could kick OPC,s ass around a 9 footer. After playing me, he would sell his cue and take up darts........ MFR

 

[onepocketchump]

I,m a nice guy but I take offence when someone calls me a thief. You better take that back.

Any normal person can read from my post that I think that the chances of me winning 2 tournaments to get into the IPT are low. NOT IMPOSSIBLE, but low. Anyones chances of winning 2 tournys in a row are slim. If someone thinks I am worth investing in, why would I refuse. I have nothing to lose and much to gain.
Just because I might be a long shot doesnt make me a thief because someone wants to take a gamble on me.. If I wasnt good enough in their eyes then they wouldnt invest in me, so your whole accusation about me taking money under false pretences is moot.

I might disagree with you but I would never personally attack you in an internet forum. I dont know you and you dont know me.

Gabber....pretty sure G could kick OPC,s ass around a 9 footer. After playing me, he would sell his cue and take up darts........ MFR

I am not attacking you. Please explain how you can justify using someone else's money to finance your pool playing if they were to expect you to have a chance at winning in a situation where YOU don't feel like you have a chance? I have plenty of people around who are happy to back me against whoever I want to play. These folks have no concept of how good players really are and to them I am the best they have ever seen. I would NEVER, EVER use their money to finance my pool playing fantasies.

I am sorry but if I let a backer back me in a game where I KNOW I have no chance to win then I feel as though I am stealing from that backer. Basically I am taking the poor guy's money and throwing it in the wind and hoping for a miracle.

As for playing me, well let's just say that I hope for your sake that you are not using your own money - I will be in Las Vegas Nevada for 25 days surrounded by pool tables - you are more than welcome to bring your cue and cash and get played.

Maybe you are the one who ought to reconsider what you said.

John

 

[Sparky Ferrell]

I would like to see or hear some positive comments about the ipt.I am not even part of the 150 chosen players but I wish all the guys and girls luck. As it is as exspenive as it is I would whether be taking a shot at this,rather than going to a tournament having to win it to break even. We should praise this man for saving us.Thank You ipt. You can get all the money I can get my hands on.

 

[jjinfla]

Deno needs to clarify one point. The referrer gets 10%. Is that from the player's winnings or in addition to the player's winning. In other words, if the player wins $2,000 in the tournament does the player receive $2,000 or $1,800?

And Linda it states in the memo that if you hold a qualifier you would be the referrer. In that case I would imagine that the person holding the qualifier would fill out the application form, use his credit card, and place his own name on the form as the referrer.

Jake

 

[memikey]

Referral prize percentages are a bonus !

Deno needs to clarify one point. The referrer gets 10%. Is that from the player's winnings or in addition to the player's winning. In other words, if the player wins $2,000 in the tournament does the player receive $2,000 or $1,800?............

Jake

IPT have already made it clear that the 10% to be paid to the referrer is in adition to the prize money paid to the player.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Deno needs to clarify one point. The referrer gets 10%. Is that from the player's winnings or in addition to the player's winning. In other words, if the player wins $2,000 in the tournament does the player receive $2,000 or $1,800?

And Linda it states in the memo that if you hold a qualifier you would be the referrer. In that case I would imagine that the person holding the qualifier would fill out the application form, use his credit card, and place his own name on the form as the referrer.

Jake

As Memike said, the 10% is additional. So that's probably another 50-100k going into the event budget.

It's my understanding that the qualifier holder is not the referer. All entrants are free to put anyone they like in as their referer.

Colin

 

[Gabber]

un-friggin-believable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is it possible that after I post this,

Any normal person can read from my post that I think that the chances of me winning 2 tournaments to get into the IPT are low. NOT IMPOSSIBLE, but low. Anyones chances of winning 2 tournys in a row are slim. If someone thinks I am worth investing in, why would I refuse. I have nothing to lose and much to gain.
Just because I might be a long shot doesnt make me a thief because someone wants to take a gamble on me.. If I wasnt good enough in their eyes then they wouldnt invest in me, so your whole accusation about me taking money under false pretences is moot.

... you still have to nerve to argue on something I never said??
Do you actually read any posts?

OPC said,

" Please explain how you can justify using someone else's money to finance your pool playing if they were to expect you to have a chance at winning in a situation where YOU don't feel like you have a chance?"

Read my post again. Is that what I said?


BTW, here's what YOU said a few posts ago.

quote OPC,

"If ten people from a local poolroom want to invest in a player then that's their business, just like it's their business if they want to invest in Amway products.

Do you see the CONTRADICTION? [ I will be amazed if you do.LOL]

OPC,

I am not attacking you.

You called me a thief based on some hypothetical situation that YOU dreamed up. Despite my friendly clarification, you just continued your rant.
You owe me a retraction and an apology. I will settle for one or the other.

Gabber........for the record.......in 30 years playing pool and snooker I have never asked anyone to back me, although i was a sponsered player for 10 years.

 

[onepocketchump]

How is it possible that after I post this,


... you still have to nerve to argue on something I never said??
Do you actually read any posts?

OPC said,

" Please explain how you can justify using someone else's money to finance your pool playing if they were to expect you to have a chance at winning in a situation where YOU don't feel like you have a chance?"

Read my post again. Is that what I said?


BTW, here's what YOU said a few posts ago.

quote OPC,

"If ten people from a local poolroom want to invest in a player then that's their business, just like it's their business if they want to invest in Amway products.

Do you see the CONTRADICTION? [ I will be amazed if you do.LOL]

OPC,


You called me a thief based on some hypothetical situation that YOU dreamed up. Despite my friendly clarification, you just continued your rant.
You owe me a retraction and an apology. I will settle for one or the other.

Gabber........for the record.......in 30 years playing pool and snooker I have never asked anyone to back me, although i was a sponsered player for 10 years.

It's possible because you said that you wouldn't play in a tournament that you feel you have very little chance in unless you were playing on someone else's money and you still can't see that this is the same as stealing that person (or group's) money. At least that is my take on it and the way I would feel about myself if I did the same thing. Apparently we have a difference in ethics.

As for your quoting me on whether it is someone's business to sponsor a player or not being hypocritical. Let me point out that when a player is sponsored (invested in) then the people doing the sponsoring are at least expecting the sponsoree to have some sort of a decent chance of success. Any chance the player has is greatly diminished if not eliminated entirely when the player doesn't believe that he/she has any chance to win. I would feel let down and stolen from if I ever found out that a player I sponsored went into a tournament knowing that they had very little chance to win and didn't tell me about it beforehand.

Such a player can count on getting knocked by me every chance I get if they EVER stole from me like that.

It is no surprise to me that you can't see the logic in this. Let me see if I can break it down for you.

Let's say that you did an little trick shot show at the local senior citizen's center. After the show one little old lady came up to you and said, hey sonny you seem like a good pool player and I have been reading up on this IPT tour in the internet. I have $1000 left in my life savings and I'd like to put you in the qualifier. Would you feel comfortable taking this woman's last $1000 to attempt to qualify in a tournament you felt like you had very little chance in?

John