How to bring pool out of the slums...

[cueandcushion]

Kids welcome at Cue & Cushion-St. Louis MO

Cue & Cushion welcomes kids in our parlor every day. We serve no alcohol and have childrens birthday parties there on a fairly regular basis. We also strongly believe in family and are trying our hardest to survive in this industry that relies so heavily on alcohol sales to make a profit.

 

[jnav447]

Saga of two competing pool rooms

We had two rooms in Orlando, about 2-3 miles apart. Sportstown has been in existence for quite awhile; not in the greatest area, terrible parking situation, fairly small, decent equipment, serves pretty good food, and has good, friendly employees. Place is always full and is a thriving business. Pro Billiards (later Orlando Billiard Center), opened maybe 4 years ago; better area, better parking, larger, better equipment (IMO), served great food (Boar's Head, etc), and also had good, friendly employees. Before it closed, the place had gone through 4 owners. While Pro/OBC had its moments, it didn't have a consistent night crowd, and the overhead was enormous. The biggest difference I saw in how the 2 places were run was that Sportstown's owner catered to the younger crowd and the original Pro Billiards owner catered to the business types, high gamblers and, in general, the older crowd. Problem was, while the youngsters at Sportstown were in there every night spending it up, we geezers would be comparatively nickel and diming it up over at Pro. I enjoyed Pro/OBC and felt comfortable there, but, given a choice, I would certainly rather have been the owner of Sportstown (Lee, you dog!). Caveat: not every town/city has zillions of kids riding around in $30.000-$40,000 rides like Orlando...we have a rather bustling drug trade going on, but I think ruling out one entire group of potential customers is a business boo-boo. I say, get good legal advice so you don't get trapped, and then dive in. There are a lot of us old-timers who wish we had run a room, successful or not, for the life experience, fish stories, and more favorable treatment by the fairer sex, if nothing else. If you do it, there are a couple of good threads on here about pool room likes/dislikes you can search for, and the Robert Byrnes book "Byrnes' Wonderful World of Pool and Billiards" has an excellent list of things a good room should have. Best of luck!

 

[catscradle]

CeeBee,

I wasn't trying to badmouth the IPT. I am not hoping it fails; I simply do not anticipate it being a huge success. If it is successful, and I'm wrong, that's great. It won't hurt my feelings any for the IPT to be successful.

Chris

My feelings exactly.

 

[X Breaker]

I think the most important thing is to know the demographic of the area where this pool hall is located. Then you can come up with a marketing mix to target at this market.

You need to be careful not to make it into a poolhall that you love, but that the customers cannot relate to.

For example, you might like lots of action, and like to have the best tables, and a bar...but if your poolhall is located in a family neighborhood, then they most likely do not care much for any of these things. They might be more interested in no age restriction, a bright and clean envirnoment,...etc

Just an example to show that you should be careful about what your customers want, rather than what you want. Because someone like you may not be who you are targetting your business at.

What your customers want largely depend on the demographic of your market, that is why you need to know that first.

What kind of a neighborhood is it located at?

Is it close to the subway, bus station, bar, nightclub, restaurant, gym, church...

Is it a blue collar area, a yuppie area, a college town, a family area...

Is it close to a shopping mall, hospital, college...why do people come to this area?

Gain a better idea of their ages, genders, income levels, culture, education level, life style, belief...

If you run a business right, you can always make some money. Do some marketing research, think about it.

I do not think you need pool to be totally "revived" in order to make money running a pool hall.

The questions I will ask myself is "do I have what it takes, is this what I want to do, will I enjoy doing it?"

Richard

 

[Banker Burt]

kids and pool rooms

Earlier posts talked about how teaching young poeple that eventually grow up enjoying the game IS RIGHT ON THE MARK.

Not tooting my horn but I have worked hard over the 7 years building a solid first period Billiards class for PE. I meet with 50-60 students daily, and we run four 9-week programs each year and have been since 1999.

Needless to say the room owners are extremely pleased with the amount of business we have built. With over 1,700 students that have taken our class it was only successful because of the bond I established with the PE department chair at the high school.

This was not easy and the worst part is, even after writing a 100+ page curriculum guide based on our years of researching what was best for the school program it has been virtually unrecognized by the billiard industry. I have not been able to get a single sponsor to put me on the road for training other room owners and professional teachers.

To the credit of Hardtimes Bellflower I did work with them to get a class started but it is a very slow process. This is partially due to an educational system that is just as political as is our sport.

All the major organizations and even the IPT know of our program and to some extent seem interested but not to the point of ponying up the bucks as did golf with Gary Player back in the 50's. He initiated the Junior USGA program and look at what's happened since.

For the most part all that have contacted me about the program have picked my brain, got allot of information and made promises to me about wanting me to come help them get a program started. The only thing I have heard back is that a few of them tried to do it on their own but wanted more information because they were failing.

It has been a spent and broken heart to know that it can be done but it would take a small investment to make it work. The teachers I have personally worked with are the backbone and a key element to get our sport out of the slums, and I am doing just that.

Call Hardtimes Sacramento and ask them what our program has done for business. The blessing is that even though our program has not been given a chance to succeed through the so-called promoters of our sport, I personally have the pleasure of working with our youth and to help them in life. As well the Markulis family treats me with great respect and will do anything I ask of them when it comes to promoting our sport.

IMHO - To this end, the sport will continue to be as it is. Yes the IPT will help but so did the movies "The Hustler" and the "Color of Money." "Pool Hall Junkies" did nothing nor did Baltimore Bullet".

Look inside the box - throwing a buch of money at glittler is to say glittler typically finds it way to the ground.

Look outside the box - teaching has no limit of what it can mean to our sport, forever.

Bart Mahoney

 

[wannaplaySOME?]

feedback...

well... although my job is no VP of goldman sachs... its is one of high stature and i would not give it up.. i would attempt both... my partner would also have a hand in this...in helping run it...

second... i love the idea of bringing kids in but then again does it drive players out?

third... i know you should be targeting non-players for the business.. but isn't it good to bring a few players for action and spectator purposes?

 

[Nostroke]

well... although my job is no VP of goldman sachs... its is one of high stature and i would not give it up.. i would attempt both... my partner would also have a hand in this...in helping run it...

second... i love the idea of bringing kids in but then again does it drive players out?

third... i know you should be targeting non-players for the business.. but isn't it good to bring a few players for action and spectator purposes?

Yes definitely, you need the players as your core business. They will be there rain or shine and keep the place alive during the off hours. No one wants walk into a place that is totally dead. Plus YOU just wont enjoy the place as much without players.

The players wont however, as a rule, pay the full hourly rates and they probably will drink water so your 'scores' will come from the bangers on fridays, saturdays and sundays. Most players learn or already understand this and wont even show-up during ball banging time. Without this high profit time/business, 99% of pool rooms can't survive.

Still it is good to have a table or 2 with extra room and turn-offable speakers that can be used anytime by players.

Anyway- just some ideas.

 

[X Breaker]

Yes definitely, you need the players as your core business. They will be there rain or shine and keep the place alive during the off hours. No one wants walk into a place that is totally dead. Plus YOU just wont enjoy the place as much without players.

The players wont however, as a rule, pay the full hourly rates and they probably will drink water so your 'scores' will come from the bangers on fridays, saturdays and sundays. Most players learn or already understand this and wont even show-up during ball banging time. Without this high profit time/business, 99% of pool rooms can't survive.

Still it is good to have a table or 2 with extra room and turn-offable speakers that can be used anytime by players.

Anyway- just some ideas.

Yes, I agree with you. Since I have a feeling she really likes actions and watch players matching up(not sure how I feel this way.. ), so she probably should get a room set up just for that for her own enjoyment and that of the players as well.

I like what they did in Q Master, whereas serious players can gamble and lurkers like me can sit and watch on the side, without disturbing them. But they are so big so they can do this kind of things.

If your place is smaller, how about have private rooms set up for this purpose? With sound proof windows, and buzzers/intercom inside for the players to buzz for service and order their food/drink. Nice big room with couches and sinks, hot towels and coffee pot...The whole hall can be having a party but the room inside is quiet and undisturbed. Of course, it is not cheap to play there, but if you are playing for big action, it is ideal.

You can either have the windows covered, or uncovered so spectators can also watch the game from the outside.

Even if you cannot open 24 hours, you can let the players play in this room (or rooms) for as long as they want while shutting down the remaining sections in your pool hall. Close the door, and charge them double.

That can be your room with the tight pockets and the best possible table and equipment.

It is also a good room for pros to give private lessons.

Richard

 

[wannaplaySOME?]

well while i am an action junkie... i will admit that...

i need to look at this more from a money making POV... that first, action second....

i do love how cue master set their room up, that was probably THE best room i have ever been in... combined with the US open watching some of the best 1P games and sidebets made it unforgettable... i doubt this room will ever be that... but who knows

 

[Scottster]

I watched "Eight Men Out" for the first time in a LONG time last night. As long as our sport of pool is conceived in the general public as a gambler's game it will stay in the slums. When players arent compensated like they should be in a final match, and you have the gambling side action that is 10 times the amt of the winning purse in the tournament, the result will always be suspiscious somewhat.
Though this may hurt many feelings, The pool world lacks HONOR. Especially in the corporate eye. As long as the mentality is to go town to town and "Rob Everyone", rather than be proud of one's talent and be willing to share and teach by way of exhibitions and offering lessons. THen pool is where it will stay.
Fortunately some have learned this, and should not be offended by this. The truth is the majority have not.
I know of a young up and comer from the northern midwest thats does not want to do well in "Big Tournaments" because he is afraid of what it will do to his gambling action. WRONG ATTITUDE! if pool is to succeed this is the mentality that needs to be eliminated.
As mentioned earlier, the place to start the change is with Children. I am starting to feel that it may even be too late for my generation (I am 32).
Bowling has an organization called the "Young American Bowling Association, or YABA). Which reminds me, why is it that bowling alleys dont have age limitations on their patrons? Pool halls and bowling alleys that both offer the same food and drink should also have the same parameters of operation. If pool could come up with such an organization, like I know Burt has tried so hard to, it would be a huge step in the transformation of the pool image.
Will pool ever get to the popularity and prize funds of golf? I doubt it. Does golf have it's share of gambling? Yes. Do you here of Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus boasting about their golf hustles, and gambling scores throughout their career? No.
The image is gonna have to change at a young age in order to attract the corporate world.
A final note, I personally do not consider a scoundrel, and a coke-head the corporate world. This current attempt for pool success has the potential, if not successful, to dig the hole of pool 10 times deeper.

Happy Easter.

 

[Barbara]

Tap! Tap! Tap!!

Barbara

I watched "Eight Men Out" for the first time in a LONG time last night. As long as our sport of pool is conceived in the general public as a gambler's game it will stay in the slums. When players arent compensated like they should be in a final match, and you have the gambling side action that is 10 times the amt of the winning purse in the tournament, the result will always be suspiscious somewhat.
Though this may hurt many feelings, The pool world lacks HONOR. Especially in the corporate eye. As long as the mentality is to go town to town and "Rob Everyone", rather than be proud of one's talent and be willing to share and teach by way of exhibitions and offering lessons. THen pool is where it will stay.
Fortunately some have learned this, and should not be offended by this. The truth is the majority have not.
I know of a young up and comer from the northern midwest thats does not want to do well in "Big Tournaments" because he is afraid of what it will do to his gambling action. WRONG ATTITUDE! if pool is to succeed this is the mentality that needs to be eliminated.
As mentioned earlier, the place to start the change is with Children. I am starting to feel that it may even be too late for my generation (I am 32).
Bowling has an organization called the "Young American Bowling Association, or YABA). Which reminds me, why is it that bowling alleys dont have age limitations on their patrons? Pool halls and bowling alleys that both offer the same food and drink should also have the same parameters of operation. If pool could come up with such an organization, like I know Burt has tried so hard to, it would be a huge step in the transformation of the pool image.
Will pool ever get to the popularity and prize funds of golf? I doubt it. Does golf have it's share of gambling? Yes. Do you here of Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus boasting about their golf hustles, and gambling scores throughout their career? No.
The image is gonna have to change at a young age in order to attract the corporate world.
A final note, I personally do not consider a scoundrel, and a coke-head the corporate world. This current attempt for pool success has the potential, if not successful, to dig the hole of pool 10 times deeper.

Happy Easter.

 

[Rickw]

I would have to agree with you Scottster. I would only add that when players are gambling while in a tournament, see "COM" when Vincent took a dive against Eddie in the tournament to win money on the side, this is the worst case scenario for discouraging corporate america from getting involved with pool.

I've been to tournaments where one of the announcers was booking bets in the stands just before a match. This does not provide anyone the feeling that any match is on the up and up.

Gambling and tournaments should be completely separated.

 

[jjinfla]

wannaplaysome -

Ask to see his tax return for this year.

If you have a full time job that takes up 10-12 hours of your day where are you going to find the 16 hours per day that will be needed to run your pool room?

And if people can BYOB into the place where will you be making any money?

Check with Chris on BilliardsDigest.com. He has run a family type poolroom for some time. No alcohol.

Believe what you see in writing and not what people tell you.

Jake

 

[Nostroke]

I've been to tournaments where one of the announcers was booking bets in the stands just before a match. This does not provide anyone the feeling that any match is on the up and up.

Gambling and tournaments should be completely separated.

Announcer and referee!

 

[Blackjack]

I watched "Eight Men Out" for the first time in a LONG time last night. As long as our sport of pool is conceived in the general public as a gambler's game it will stay in the slums. When players arent compensated like they should be in a final match, and you have the gambling side action that is 10 times the amt of the winning purse in the tournament, the result will always be suspiscious somewhat.
Though this may hurt many feelings, The pool world lacks HONOR. Especially in the corporate eye. As long as the mentality is to go town to town and "Rob Everyone", rather than be proud of one's talent and be willing to share and teach by way of exhibitions and offering lessons. THen pool is where it will stay.
Fortunately some have learned this, and should not be offended by this. The truth is the majority have not.
I know of a young up and comer from the northern midwest thats does not want to do well in "Big Tournaments" because he is afraid of what it will do to his gambling action. WRONG ATTITUDE! if pool is to succeed this is the mentality that needs to be eliminated.
As mentioned earlier, the place to start the change is with Children. I am starting to feel that it may even be too late for my generation (I am 32).
Bowling has an organization called the "Young American Bowling Association, or YABA). Which reminds me, why is it that bowling alleys dont have age limitations on their patrons? Pool halls and bowling alleys that both offer the same food and drink should also have the same parameters of operation. If pool could come up with such an organization, like I know Burt has tried so hard to, it would be a huge step in the transformation of the pool image.
Will pool ever get to the popularity and prize funds of golf? I doubt it. Does golf have it's share of gambling? Yes. Do you here of Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus boasting about their golf hustles, and gambling scores throughout their career? No.
The image is gonna have to change at a young age in order to attract the corporate world.
A final note, I personally do not consider a scoundrel, and a coke-head the corporate world. This current attempt for pool success has the potential, if not successful, to dig the hole of pool 10 times deeper.

Happy Easter.

Scott...

I agree with you 1000%. Best post I have read in a very long time.

 

[macguy]

wannaplaysome -

Ask to see his tax return for this year.

If you have a full time job that takes up 10-12 hours of your day where are you going to find the 16 hours per day that will be needed to run your pool room?

And if people can BYOB into the place where will you be making any money?

Check with Chris on BilliardsDigest.com. He has run a family type poolroom for some time. No alcohol.

Believe what you see in writing and not what people tell you.

Jake

A tax return is not worth anything in a pool room, they never keep real books it is a cash business, they all look like they are breaking even. As far as BYOB, you make a lot of money if the place goes. They bring their own bottle and you put it behind the bar with their name on it and sell it back to them a drink at a time, all profit. It is usually refereed to as a set up charge.

You know talking about the books, I could have a tax guy in and out of the place on a regular basis and I doubt he could guess very close what I was making. There can no one in the place and then you fill up and make $400 or $500. in the blink of an eye and the place looks empty again. You could have a jam up Monday and a slow weekend then it is the other way around. Hard to clock a pool rooms income.

 

[Cameron Smith]

I watched "Eight Men Out" for the first time in a LONG time last night. As long as our sport of pool is conceived in the general public as a gambler's game it will stay in the slums. When players arent compensated like they should be in a final match, and you have the gambling side action that is 10 times the amt of the winning purse in the tournament, the result will always be suspiscious somewhat.
Though this may hurt many feelings, The pool world lacks HONOR. Especially in the corporate eye. As long as the mentality is to go town to town and "Rob Everyone", rather than be proud of one's talent and be willing to share and teach by way of exhibitions and offering lessons. THen pool is where it will stay.
Fortunately some have learned this, and should not be offended by this. The truth is the majority have not.
I know of a young up and comer from the northern midwest thats does not want to do well in "Big Tournaments" because he is afraid of what it will do to his gambling action. WRONG ATTITUDE! if pool is to succeed this is the mentality that needs to be eliminated.
As mentioned earlier, the place to start the change is with Children. I am starting to feel that it may even be too late for my generation (I am 32).
Bowling has an organization called the "Young American Bowling Association, or YABA). Which reminds me, why is it that bowling alleys dont have age limitations on their patrons? Pool halls and bowling alleys that both offer the same food and drink should also have the same parameters of operation. If pool could come up with such an organization, like I know Burt has tried so hard to, it would be a huge step in the transformation of the pool image.
Will pool ever get to the popularity and prize funds of golf? I doubt it. Does golf have it's share of gambling? Yes. Do you here of Arnold Palmer and Jack Nicklaus boasting about their golf hustles, and gambling scores throughout their career? No.
The image is gonna have to change at a young age in order to attract the corporate world.
A final note, I personally do not consider a scoundrel, and a coke-head the corporate world. This current attempt for pool success has the potential, if not successful, to dig the hole of pool 10 times deeper.

Happy Easter.

Great post. I agree.

However its kind of a vicious cycle. Gambling persists because there is little to no money in pool. Thats why I hope the IPT is a success. If professional pool can make a player wealthy, even an average player, then people learning the game will be aiming to be legitimate professionals not road players.

 

[macguy]

Great post. I agree.

However its kind of a vicious cycle. Gambling persists because there is little to no money in pool. Thats why I hope the IPT is a success. If professional pool can make a player wealthy, even an average player, then people learning the game will be aiming to be legitimate professionals not road players.

With only 150 players and most of them will just pay the bills, I doubt even if it is a big success very very few if any will become wealthy. They like to throw around the number $100,000 a year. That's not much with no benefits or security plus paying all your own expenses, then there's taxes, its not such a great deal. Add to that it is based on performance, meaning you get sick and have to miss a few tournaments or get hurt and can't play at all, at least not at the level required to stay on the tour and you head for the welfare line, it is a complete crap shoot even for the top players, and certainly not something someone should walk away from a real job for.

You may be giving a kid better advice to tell them to begin playing the lottery as soon as their old enough rather then aspire to playing professional pool. The IPT will not change the landscape of pool very much even if it is a success. It may spawn a few more independent tournaments and drive up prize money a little but nothing anyone could make a career out of. I don't think the IPT will be offering a health and retirement plan. Some players will make a few bucks and have some fun but thats will be about it. Pool is a pastime not a profession.

 

[wannaplaySOME?]

well...

wannaplaysome -

Ask to see his tax return for this year.

If you have a full time job that takes up 10-12 hours of your day where are you going to find the 16 hours per day that will be needed to run your pool room?

And if people can BYOB into the place where will you be making any money?

Check with Chris on BilliardsDigest.com. He has run a family type poolroom for some time. No alcohol.

Believe what you see in writing and not what people tell you.

Jake

i am not questioning how much is possible and his tax return would have nothing to do with my business because 1. he is running it poorly and 2. i already know how many things i would change about it...

in all actuality i am merely asking what it would take for the sport to flourish and become popular again.... and if that was a possibility then i would consider taking it over.. but... only if it were to make a come back...

i could implement a thousand changes but it does me no good if the sport doesn't bounce back

 

[macguy]

i am not questioning how much is possible and his tax return would have nothing to do with my business because 1. he is running it poorly and 2. i already know how many things i would change about it...

in all actuality i am merely asking what it would take for the sport to flourish and become popular again.... and if that was a possibility then i would consider taking it over.. but... only if it were to make a come back...

i could implement a thousand changes but it does me no good if the sport doesn't bounce back

Pool on the local level has little to do with the state of the sport, which is pretty good by the way, pool isn't a fad. I can show you a room that opens at 7 am and has a packed breakfast counter and by 10 am most of the tables are going. They close at I believe 10 P.M. and the next day do it all over again. I will show you another room that doesn't open till 4 P.M. and starts out with the after work crowd coming in and doesn't stop till 4 am. Some have lunch counters, others sell beer.

I used to go in one place, a pool room that only served tuna and egg salad sandwiches along with the best milk shakes in the state. They had no beer license but made more with that formula then most with a bar. They went through big tubs of the best Tuna and egg salad every day at least a few hundred sandwiches a day and the same with the milk shakes. They had a takeout window on the sidewalk and they would be standing in line for the shakes all day and sandwiches.

Very low tech but a gold mine, remember McDonalds made billions based on burgers, fries and shakes. Point is if the demographic is there a pool room can make money as long as you augment it with other incomes, you never know what might work. I love the small town pool room, been in hundreds of them, where you can set your clock by the regulars. They usually have lower overheads but can generate almost the same kind of income as a high risk room with a sky high nut. Number one though, talk to a lawyer don't be asking for advice on an internet board, most of what you get will be worth about what you paid for it.