How to get rid of the shot clock.

[CaptainJR]

Rules: Time penalty and Push Out - Thread 2

So what else prompted me to think and write the above mentioned thread?

The other evening I saw it again and it really disturbs me when I see a player on a TV match rushed because of the shot clock. I just don't think it has any business in pool. I'll never get in the position to do anything about it. I'm not writing this to discuss it. It has already been discussed. I am writing this to show what could be done if the correct two players meet in a TV match and they wanted to protest the shot clock crap. All I can hope for is that the right two people read this and I don't really care what anyone else thinks. Unless they agree with me of course.

First: The two opponents would have to walk up to the referee and inform him that on a file that the cue ball doesn't go in a pocket, they have the right to shoot from where the cue ball lies. So don't be coming up touching the cue ball unless it is in a pocket.

Second: When your opponent is in a pickle and you can see that the shot may require a little extra thought. If the referee times him out, just walk up to the table wait to get timed out giving the shot back as it was.

Obviously this would have to be done by two players that trust each other. With the goal in mind of making a point. So if the situation didn't come up in the match, it might not hurt to do this a couple of times anyway.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Rules: Time penalty and Push Out - Thread 2

So what else prompted me to think and write the above mentioned thread?

The other evening I saw it again and it really disturbs me when I see a player on a TV match rushed because of the shot clock. I just don't think it has any business in pool. I'll never get in the position to do anything about it. I'm not writing this to discuss it. It has already been discussed. I am writing this to show what could be done if the correct two players meet in a TV match and they wanted to protest the shot clock crap. All I can hope for is that the right two people read this and I don't really care what anyone else thinks. Unless they agree with me of course.

First: The two opponents would have to walk up to the referee and inform him that on a file that the cue ball doesn't go in a pocket, they have the right to shoot from where the cue ball lies. So don't be coming up touching the cue ball unless it is in a pocket.

Second: When your opponent is in a pickle and you can see that the shot may require a little extra thought. If the referee times him out, just walk up to the table wait to get timed out giving the shot back as it was.

Obviously this would have to be done by two players that trust each other. With the goal in mind of making a point. So if the situation didn't come up in the match, it might not hurt to do this a couple of times anyway.

Captain, I hear ya but there's another side to the spectrum that you're not considering: EXTREMELY SLOW play. I agree that it's really sad to see players rush their decisions because a referee informs them that they have only 10 seconds remaining to execute a shot. It's is an incredible shark. However, I also can't stand the player who takes MINUTES deciding what to do in a rather routine situation.

I mean, I was in attendance for a finals match between two of the top players in the game several months back. I stepped away from my seat to have a cigarette outside, had a brief conversation with someone and then returned to my seat. It all took about 20 minutes and they were shooting at the 5 ball. THE FIVE BALL! IT TOOK THEM 20 MINUTES TO POCKET FOUR BALLS!!!

I was stunned. I looked at the layout and realized this was the same game. I asked a few people and they all confirmed. In the end, that race to 13 took over 3 hours to complete. Now that's just ridiculous. As a spectator, I wanted to kill myself on the spot. If I were a player, I probably would have checked myself into a mental institution right then and there. Shot-clocks may not be the greatest solution but there are players out there that take an excessive amount of time. How are we to find the right balance without setting strict rules to go by?

 

[StatMan]

What if they change it so each player has a total amount of time they're allowed to be at the table? There are lots of shots that they shoot in less than 30 seconds, so they could "save up" the additional time from those shots to use on more difficult shots.

 

[CaptainJR]

What if they change it so each player has a total amount of time they're allowed to be at the table? There are lots of shots that they shoot in less than 30 seconds, so they could "save up" the additional time from those shots to use on more difficult shots.

I'm not that closed minded about it. I just think there should be a way to go about it that if a situation comes up that may take some extra consideration, you have the time to do it. And this can come up more than once in a game. As a matter of fact, if it does come up, it is usually because of a tough layout and likely to come up more than once in that game.

 

[drivermaker]

Captain, I hear ya but there's another side to the spectrum that you're not considering: EXTREMELY SLOW play. I agree that it's really sad to see players rush their decisions because a referee informs them that they have only 10 seconds remaining to execute a shot. It's is an incredible shark. However, I also can't stand the player who takes MINUTES deciding what to do in a rather routine situation.

I mean, I was in attendance for a finals match between two of the top players in the game several months back. I stepped away from my seat to have a cigarette outside, had a brief conversation with someone and then returned to my seat. It all took about 20 minutes and they were shooting at the 5 ball. THE FIVE BALL! IT TOOK THEM 20 MINUTES TO POCKET FOUR BALLS!!!

I was stunned. I looked at the layout and realized this was the same game. I asked a few people and they all confirmed. In the end, that race to 13 took over 3 hours to complete. Now that's just ridiculous. As a spectator, I wanted to kill myself on the spot. If I were a player, I probably would have checked myself into a mental institution right then and there. Shot-clocks may not be the greatest solution but there are players out there that take an excessive amount of time. How are we to find the right balance without setting strict rules to go by?

That story is incredulous and is the very reason that a shot clock should NEVER be abandoned. It's pure insanity to take that long on a nine ball game.
I watched both videos of Mike Sigel running 150 and out in straight pool against Zuglan and Rempe and NEVER ONCE did he take over 30 seconds to study the rack and shoot with all the balls tied up. He went though those racks like a buzz saw and it doesn't get much more complex than in certain 14.1 racks.

I'd like to hear a few responses from slow players and fast players alike on this hypothetical situation that I'm going to lay out:

Let's assume you were playing against a real head case individual in 9-ball. I mean the most whacked out loon you ever came up against. Reason being is because after EVERY shot, he walked over to the table and changed the shaft back and forth for each shot that was now facing him. In other words, he had a shaft for short shots....a shaft for long shots...a shaft for draw...a shaft for follow....and on and on every time he shot. How do you think you would feel if something like that occurred EVERY shot, game after game, during a set to 11 or 13?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

That story is incredulous and is the very reason that a shot clock should NEVER be abandoned. It's pure insanity to take that long on a nine ball game.
I watched both videos of Mike Sigel running 150 and out in straight pool against Zuglan and Rempe and NEVER ONCE did he take over 30 seconds to study the rack and shoot with all the balls tied up. He went though those racks like a buzz saw and it doesn't get much more complex than in certain 14.1 racks.

I'd like to hear a few responses from slow players and fast players alike on this hypothetical situation that I'm going to lay out:

Let's assume you were playing against a real head case individual in 9-ball. I mean the most whacked out loon you ever came up against. Reason being is because after EVERY shot, he walked over to the table and changed the shaft back and forth for each shot that was now facing him. In other words, he had a shaft for short shots....a shaft for long shots...a shaft for draw...a shaft for follow....and on and on every time he shot. How do you think you would feel if something like that occurred EVERY shot, game after game, during a set to 11 or 13?

I would remind him that breaking down his cue was a forfeiture of match unless he got permission from me OR the tournament director prior to doing so and then I wouldn't give him permission. If he protested to the TD, I would immediately protest that his actions were disruptive and unsportsmanlike. I wouldn't tolerate that crap past the two ball.

 

[drivermaker]

I would remind him that breaking down his cue was a forfeiture of match unless he got permission from me OR the tournament director prior to doing so and then I wouldn't give him permission. If he protested to the TD, I would immediately protest that his actions were disruptive and unsportsmanlike. I wouldn't tolerate that crap past the two ball.

I kinda figured you or someone would say that, and rightfully so. Even CaptJR, the slowest of slow player and thinker would probably go ballistic in no time flat.

However, the reason I brought that up is because I was trying to think of the most obnoxious thing a player could do to piss time away and get on the nerves so bad that you wanted to kill. But believe it or not, (and you can try it yourself) I actually tested this to see how much time it would take to unscrew the shaft, walk over to a nearby table, pick up another shaft and screw it on, get back to the table and get over the shot and shoot after looking over the layout AND it takes right between 25-30 seconds.

You can actually do all of that mind numbing, time wasting shit in 30 seconds!! Therefore, for anyone to say that they need MORE time and shot clocks should be abandoned forever under normal shooting conditions like the story you laid out....should be hung by their nuts with a dart board painted on their fat f*#king ass!! There is no excuse for the slow play crap on EVERY SINGLE SHOT or even MULTIPLE SHOTS that should and can be analyzed within seconds.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Rules: Time penalty and Push Out - Thread 2

So what else prompted me to think and write the above mentioned thread?

The other evening I saw it again and it really disturbs me when I see a player on a TV match rushed because of the shot clock. I just don't think it has any business in pool. I'll never get in the position to do anything about it. I'm not writing this to discuss it. It has already been discussed. I am writing this to show what could be done if the correct two players meet in a TV match and they wanted to protest the shot clock crap. All I can hope for is that the right two people read this and I don't really care what anyone else thinks. Unless they agree with me of course.

First: The two opponents would have to walk up to the referee and inform him that on a file that the cue ball doesn't go in a pocket, they have the right to shoot from where the cue ball lies. So don't be coming up touching the cue ball unless it is in a pocket.

Second: When your opponent is in a pickle and you can see that the shot may require a little extra thought. If the referee times him out, just walk up to the table wait to get timed out giving the shot back as it was.

Obviously this would have to be done by two players that trust each other. With the goal in mind of making a point. So if the situation didn't come up in the match, it might not hurt to do this a couple of times anyway.

The more I think of it, the more I think your idea would not go over well. When I enter a tournament, I agree to compete in whatever rules are put in place. If it's 9-ball, I play 9-ball. If I have to break from the box, I break from the box. I can't make a side-arrangement with my opponent and ask to play straight-pool. That's just not fair to the organizers or the spectators. Players cannot put themselves above the organization they play under. That would be just chaos. If I were running the show, I'd inform both players that they'd be penalized for taking such action.

 

[Snapshot9]

Shot clock ...

They are professionals and they should be able to evaluate a
layout very quickly (normally only looking at the current object ball
and the next object ball). They have played thousands and thousands
of hours, I do not think the shot clock is unreasonable.

If any changes, I might make the one extension 45 or 60 in lieu of 30 seconds.

Some people, and it is personality not skill level, will take minutes to study
a layout when it can be evaluated in no longer than 10 seconds nornally.
I have watched players, better than myself, study an 8" shot straight
into the side Pocket, with the object ball being 6" from the side pocket,
for over a minute, and the shape on the next ball was not hard.

There are some people that use their slowness of play as a shark, just as
there are people that will squeak the chalk all the time trying to get on
your nerves.

If you have reached a certain level in your ability to Play, then a shot
clock , imo, is not unfair by any means.

I have played in many 64 player tournaments, where I have had to mention about slow play, and a couple of instances had to get the tournament
director to put them on the clock, which is 45 seconds, for the tournaments
I play in.

If you have to take minutes and minutes to evaluate even the simpliest of layouts, then you do not belong in that tournament to begin with.

 

[gromulan]

That story is incredulous and is the very reason that a shot clock should NEVER be abandoned. It's pure insanity to take that long on a nine ball game.
I watched both videos of Mike Sigel running 150 and out in straight pool against Zuglan and Rempe and NEVER ONCE did he take over 30 seconds to study the rack and shoot with all the balls tied up. He went though those racks like a buzz saw and it doesn't get much more complex than in certain 14.1 racks.

I'd like to hear a few responses from slow players and fast players alike on this hypothetical situation that I'm going to lay out:

Let's assume you were playing against a real head case individual in 9-ball. I mean the most whacked out loon you ever came up against. Reason being is because after EVERY shot, he walked over to the table and changed the shaft back and forth for each shot that was now facing him. In other words, he had a shaft for short shots....a shaft for long shots...a shaft for draw...a shaft for follow....and on and on every time he shot. How do you think you would feel if something like that occurred EVERY shot, game after game, during a set to 11 or 13?

I'd like it, because nobody can play that way and be any good and I never care how long a match takes if I'm the winner.

Dealing with slow players is just a part of being a well-rounded player. Using their actions at the table as an excuse for losing or getting out of your game is a huge mental leak, in my opinion. Actually, I often find that playing fast players can be a little more unnerving - I've played Earl a couple of times and the toughest thing about his game is that you can lose 4 or 5 games in like 3 minutes. That's tough to fade.

I also find it amusing that fans complain when they watch slow match, as in Jude's post. If I pay to watch a final I'm looking for it to take as long as possible so I can get my money's worth. The problem with these matches is that they should have forced intermissions like they do in other sports, rather than allowing the players to arbitrarily decide when they are going to take their own breaks.

I'm also not a fan of the shot clock, especially when it's set at 30 seconds. Giving the players 1 minute would raise the standard of play without hurting the TV production. The problem is that the producers are so scared of post production costs that they freak out with the possiblity of having to do any editing if a match runs long.

 

[sixpack]

I would remind him that breaking down his cue was a forfeiture of match unless he got permission from me OR the tournament director prior to doing so and then I wouldn't give him permission. If he protested to the TD, I would immediately protest that his actions were disruptive and unsportsmanlike. I wouldn't tolerate that crap past the two ball.

It's only a forfeit if he does it during your turn. It's perfectly legal to break your cue down during your turn. People do this to avoid encroachments or even jump balls. At least it was last time I checked, which was some time ago...

Cheers,
Regas

 

[CaptainJR]

Personally I've never had anyone complain that I'm a slow player. I know I'm not a speed demon, but I'm sure that the shot clock issue wouldn't bother me most of the time. I just don't like to see the shot clock rush someone in a tough situation. Which has nothing to do with what any of you are talking about. I'm not talking about sharking, I'm not talking about changing shafts. I'm talking about having enough time when the layout requires it.

The solution is simple. These matches all have someone watching a timer. That person needs to be a person that understands and plays the game. You give them the authority that if they see a player is taking lots of time on every shot not just tough spots, then they give a warning, after the warning if they don't pick it up, then they are put on the shot clock. That's it.

 

[Egg McDogit]

if they made the shotclock 45 seconds, that should be plenty for even the slowest of the slow. Half the time someone takes more than that, it's just a move anyways.

peace
-egg

I kinda figured you or someone would say that, and rightfully so. Even CaptJR, the slowest of slow player and thinker would probably go ballistic in no time flat.

However, the reason I brought that up is because I was trying to think of the most obnoxious thing a player could do to piss time away and get on the nerves so bad that you wanted to kill. But believe it or not, (and you can try

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

It's only a forfeit if he does it during your turn. It's perfectly legal to break your cue down during your turn. People do this to avoid encroachments or even jump balls. At least it was last time I checked, which was some time ago...

Cheers,
Regas

Breaking a cue down and converting a break cue to a jump cue are entirely seperate things. Under most concession rules, breaking your cues down is ALWAYS a loss of match no matter who's turn it is and in most tours, you must get permission to change shafts and there's a limit to the number of cues you may bring to the table. Also, under BCA rules, there are rules regarding disruptive behaivor which would also require such an excessive-compulsive shooter to gain permission to take such actions.

This is simply not prudent and no tour is going to allow someone to change shafts, whether it's his turn or not. In most tours, the only time you may change a shaft is when it is absolutely necessary AND with permission. You must realize, until the past decade, you couldn't even change cues.

 

[drivermaker]

Breaking a cue down and converting a break cue to a jump cue are entirely seperate things. Under most concession rules, breaking your cues down is ALWAYS a loss of match no matter who's turn it is and in most tours, you must get permission to change shafts and there's a limit to the number of cues you may bring to the table. Also, under BCA rules, there are rules regarding disruptive behaivor which would also require such an excessive-compulsive shooter to gain permission to take such actions.

This is simply not prudent and no tour is going to allow someone to change shafts, whether it's his turn or not. In most tours, the only time you may change a shaft is when it is absolutely necessary AND with permission. You must realize, until the past decade, you couldn't even change cues.

It's all actually a moot point. The real issue is TIME. 30 seconds is 30 seconds and 45 seconds is 45 seconds. If a player is taking the entire amount of time wandering around the table back and forth with a thumb up their ass and a look of total bewilderment on their face over and over again for every shot... is it really any worse than seeing them change a shaft in the same amount of time or less. Time yourself for 30 or 45 seconds while walking laps around the table (without shooting) just to see how many laps you can get in. It's a lonnnnnggg period of time in reality.

 

[Mungtor]

It's all actually a moot point. The real issue is TIME. 30 seconds is 30 seconds and 45 seconds is 45 seconds. If a player is taking the entire amount of time wandering around the table back and forth with a thumb up their ass and a look of total bewilderment on their face over and over again for every shot... is it really any worse than seeing them change a shaft in the same amount of time or less. Time yourself for 30 or 45 seconds while walking laps around the table (without shooting) just to see how many laps you can get in. It's a lonnnnnggg period of time in reality.

I know I've posted this before.

Countdown clocks for each player. 5 min per player, clock doesn't run while the balls are in motion. If you need to take 2 minutes to analyze a shot, fine, but you better be able to run out in the remaining 3. Clock runs out on your turn, you lose the game.

Seriously, why won't that accomodate 99% of the situations?

 

[CaptainJR]

It's all actually a moot point. The real issue is TIME. 30 seconds is 30 seconds and 45 seconds is 45 seconds. If a player is taking the entire amount of time wandering around the table back and forth with a thumb up their ass and a look of total bewilderment on their face over and over again for every shot... is it really any worse than seeing them change a shaft in the same amount of time or less. Time yourself for 30 or 45 seconds while walking laps around the table (without shooting) just to see how many laps you can get in. It's a lonnnnnggg period of time in reality.

Exactly, especially 45 seconds. That is what I'm talking about and thank you for backing up my position. It is a long time so it is real obvious when a player is taking to long on shot after shot after shot. Then you warn them and after that you put them on the clock. It is just as ridiculous to rush a player that has played the last 20 shots in 45 seconds when he comes up to a shot he is not comfortable over and takes a little extra time with.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

I kinda figured you or someone would say that, and rightfully so. Even CaptJR, the slowest of slow player and thinker would probably go ballistic in no time flat.

However, the reason I brought that up is because I was trying to think of the most obnoxious thing a player could do to piss time away and get on the nerves so bad that you wanted to kill. But believe it or not, (and you can try it yourself) I actually tested this to see how much time it would take to unscrew the shaft, walk over to a nearby table, pick up another shaft and screw it on, get back to the table and get over the shot and shoot after looking over the layout AND it takes right between 25-30 seconds.

You can actually do all of that mind numbing, time wasting shit in 30 seconds!! Therefore, for anyone to say that they need MORE time and shot clocks should be abandoned forever under normal shooting conditions like the story you laid out....should be hung by their nuts with a dart board painted on their fat f*#king ass!! There is no excuse for the slow play crap on EVERY SINGLE SHOT or even MULTIPLE SHOTS that should and can be analyzed within seconds.

Okay, I just read this! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This really does drive the point home. The fact is, this game has a pace to it. It's meant to be played within a reasonable amount of time. 30 seconds is plenty of time for most shots and allowing an extension per game should be more then sufficient.

 

[Nostroke]

Okay, I just read this! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLOLOOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


This really does drive the point home. The fact is, this game has a pace to it. It's meant to be played within a reasonable amount of time. 30 seconds is plenty of time for most shots and allowing an extension per game should be more then sufficient.

Agree 100%-It's hard to believe that people passionately argue the other side of this- I guess such things keep life more interesting.

 

[StatMan]

I know I've posted this before.

Countdown clocks for each player. 5 min per player, clock doesn't run while the balls are in motion. If you need to take 2 minutes to analyze a shot, fine, but you better be able to run out in the remaining 3. Clock runs out on your turn, you lose the game.

Seriously, why won't that accomodate 99% of the situations?

That's exactly what I was talking about, I just did a piss poor job of explaining it.