How to Increase Play/All Levels

[Island Drive]

What I'd like promoters to consider is??? How do you create player interest/entry numbers for all skill levels?

Games on the wire races to 11....9 ball double elimination, winner breaks.

This is a proven format for the best players in the world (US Open 9 ball).

This way, everyone could enter the event from Jason Shaw to a bar league player and have a chance.

It's better, to enter a competition, with the same entry fee, than to pay ten times less and have ZERO chance.

For example if you were to play Shaw, how many games on the wire would you need? Or Filler, or Shane?

Luck, fatigue, and if you get to the hill with Shaw 10-10, who's got more pressure on that final game?
If your handicap allow you to get 7 games on the wire how about it you tie it up? 10-10.
The pro will be more worn out, and EXPECTED to win, and under more pressure.

An event to cater to unequal skill levels, must put realistic pressure on both players to create a great match with same entry fees.

Even ball bangers would sign up getting 8 games on the wire, just for the chance to play a great player knowing they ''might'' have a chance, makes their event time worth their entry fee.

This format would increase play/interest and event sizes, getting everyone on board and in the same room.

In life, pros and non pros hanging out together is allot more fun, and some of the gals might find this interesting, being in an event with 95% men.

I know in my youth, it would of been allot of fun to mix it up in this manner.

 

[garczar]

What I'd like promoters to consider is??? How do you create player interest/entry numbers for all skill levels?

Games on the wire races to 11....9 ball double elimination, winner breaks.

This is a proven format for the best players in the world (US Open 9 ball).

This way, everyone could enter the event from Jason Shaw to a bar league player and have a chance.

It's better, to enter a competition, with the same entry fee, than to pay ten times less and have ZERO chance.

For example if you were to play Shaw, how many games on the wire would you need? Or Filler, or Shane?

Luck, fatigue, and if you get to the hill with Shaw 10-10, who's got more pressure on that final game?
If your handicap allow you to get 7 games on the wire how about it you tie it up? 10-10.
The pro will be more worn out, and EXPECTED to win, and under more pressure.

An event to cater to unequal skill levels, must put realistic pressure on both players to create a great match with same entry fees.

Even ball bangers would sign up getting 8 games on the wire, just for the chance to play a great player knowing they ''might'' have a chance, makes their event time worth their entry fee.

This format would increase play/interest and event sizes, getting everyone on board and in the same room.

In life, pros and non pros hanging out together is allot more fun, and some of the gals might find this interesting, being in an event with 95% men.

I know in my youth, it would of been allot of fun to mix it up in this manner.

Isn't this kinda how Fargo works? Based on your skill level a player goes to a number based on rating difference.

 

[The_JV]

Nothing like punishing pros for being such...

 

[Jimmorrison]

Joey Ryan talked about this, in a podcast with Mike Page and Steve Ernst. High level players don't like giving that much weight, they aren't looking for a 50-50 proposition.

 

[David in FL]

Isn't this kinda how Fargo works? Based on your skill level a player goes to a number based on rating difference.

Yep. Hell, it’s the way most leagues work whether they’re Fargo based or use some other SL measurement/handicap.

 

[Island Drive]

Nothing like punishing pros for being such...

So you saying it's ok for an amateur, to enter a pro event with NO chance of ever beating Shaw/Filler/SVB and pay entry. Your entry fee is chum, all you'll get is play time to watch the pro shoot.

In essence your Guaranteeing of paying them to show up, and YOU are playing/donating to them with ZERO chance of EVER winning a race to 11 even.

I'd rather invite the pro and his wife to dinner and pay and enjoy that time, instead of the obvious outcome loss of $150, who likes that.

Some want to hob knob with the pros, and so be it.

So Local pro JV.....answer this question.

Will a player entering an event with NO chance at Winning against any top pro, increase play for the venue?

Or JV, since your a local pro, would you be more likely to enjoy your chances of playing SVB with a 6 game spot race to 11 or even?

 

[sparkle84]

In JV's case as well as mine I think we'd rather play even** but we're not exactly bangers.
With bangers the race would have to be 27-2 to give them a chance and what kind of
tournament format would support that. How would the draws work? Shane draws
Bergman and plays even while Shaw draws a banger and plays him 27-2.
I admire your desire to increase participation I just don't think this model will fly.
**While myself or JV would still be an underdog playing 6-11, your right we'd have a
slight (1 out of 20 maybe) chance. I can't speak for him but for myself it wouldn't be much
of a thrill. Needing weight to beat someone isn't necessarily congruent with our mindset.

 

[Island Drive]

In JV's case as well as mine I think we'd rather play even** but we're not exactly bangers.
With bangers the race would have to be 27-2 to give them a chance and what kind of
tournament format would support that. How would the draws work? Shane draws
Bergman and plays even while Shaw draws a banger and plays him 27-2.
I admire your desire to increase participation I just don't think this model will fly.
**While myself or JV would still be an underdog playing 6-11, your right we'd have a
slight (1 out of 20 maybe) chance. I can't speak for him but for myself it wouldn't be much
of a thrill. Needing weight to beat someone isn't necessarily congruent with our mindset.

Races to 11 a pro event format....Remember, money leads pros on where they go next or not.
It's always been disturbing to see a pro sneak in, at the last minute to register to NOT kill the registration numbers.
There's not many of us, that will travel and pay expenses, to guarantee they will never get there.
Medina used to do that in CO, often, wait till the player list is near full then enter. Once that happened, everyone knew they were playing for second or worst, every time.
I was going to enter the Open one more time 2020, and had flight and all prepaid, till pandemic. Now I have to wait till next yr. I expect to not cash, but that was my goal to get just 2 wins, knowing I don't quite have it anymore being in my 70's.

I played in it twice, 17-24 both times 90's.... I did cash fairly well to offset expenses.
I was at the last US Open, when the women formed their tour and walked away from the men. Barry had a cocktail food set up for us all to recognize the moment after the event.
Women had NO chance winning one of the men's, events and chose to form their own WPBA tour and play amongst themselves. Men not allowed, tho women were Always allowed in our events.
We appreciated their donations being there, they knew it only too well.
It's why in many pro sports, women don't compete together not an equal playing field.

Allison Fisher would be a good example, she'd probably need 3 on the wire to jump in with 255 men and give it a go.

 

[Tin Man]

You can handicap your local tournaments, $20 sets, and junior leagues. But please leave professional pool out of the equation. If you don't have a prayer to win against Shaw then stay home, but don't lobotomize the only pure form of competition left because you feel entitled for the opportunity to win against the world's best. This isn't the way to grow pool.

 

[boogieman]

Joey Ryan talked about this, in a podcast with Mike Page and Steve Ernst. High level players don't like giving that much weight, they aren't looking for a 50-50 proposition.

Then they can pass the event and let us have a chance at the cheese. I mean, I get it, I don't want to work hard to steamroll everyone either, but if you're a pro and want the winnings, I think you can adapt.

 

[Island Drive]

You can handicap your local tournaments, $20 sets, and junior leagues. But please leave professional pool out of the equation. If you don't have a prayer to win against Shaw then stay home, but don't lobotomize the only pure form of competition left because you feel entitled for the opportunity to win against the world's best. This isn't the way to grow pool.

So your saying it's ok to hold a reginal state event, players wouldn't mind a local pro make your venue a stop and play em even, a race to 11?

 

[Tin Man]

So your saying it's ok to hold a reginal state event, players wouldn't mind a local pro make your venue a stop and play em even, a race to 11?

I don't quite follow your question. People can do what they want. You can run whatever tournament you want to run. People can choose to play them or not play them. It's a free country.

For me, I won't play in handicapped events. This isn't about 'not wanting to lose' or 'wanting to steal' because all I do is play pro events where I do lose time and time again and rarely come out ahead. I have other reasons why I abstain from handicapped events and maybe I can write a thread about that another day. All I can say is that I'm done playing competition in my home state of MN and I will only play tournaments where I can play even up. If that means 4-6 events a year against international pros, well, then that's what I will play.

Of course it's ok to do whatever you want. I simply expect most top players won't participate as they'd rather get beat even up by a champion that out performs them than lose to low level players that are given an insurmountable lead by a tournament director. Not that I think the amateur players mind the top players being absent. If they did they would show up for the open tournaments and we wouldn't have seen so many tournaments go the handicapped route. So hold your handicapped events and I'll fly out to Turning Stone and enjoy my even up losses to top players.

 

[Geosnookery]

I’m not sure who this generic pro pool player is. He isn’t a multi million dollar sports star and a member of some Union that dictates his appearances. He might want to pick up a thousand dollars or just enjoy the experience....or not.

Most pro Snooker players make as much on weekends in local tournaments as they do on the circuit. Nothing stopping a local club, hall, etc, from arranging whatever type of tournament they want to hold and to decide the terms. I’ve never played in a ranking Snooker tournament in my life but have played hundreds of games over the decades against ranking players in local events.

Nobody needs ‘promoters’ to arrange a tournament. Anyone can. In fact, likely local enthusiasts will do a better job. We arrange Curling tournaments at almost zero cost by volunteer energy and local supporters. We can get ice sheet time donated. In contrast, if a promoter Was in it to make a profit, it would cost him a few thousand dollars. Winning Pay outs are paid via entry fees. However most teams donate the winnings to a local non profit group or give it all to the youngest player if a student.

 

[sparkle84]

Races to 11 a pro event format....Remember, money leads pros on where they go next or not.
It's always been disturbing to see a pro sneak in, at the last minute to register to NOT kill the registration numbers.
There's not many of us, that will travel and pay expenses, to guarantee they will never get there.
Medina used to do that in CO, often, wait till the player list is near full then enter. Once that happened, everyone knew they were playing for second or worst, every time.
I was going to enter the Open one more time 2020, and had flight and all prepaid, till pandemic. Now I have to wait till next yr. I expect to not cash, but that was my goal to get just 2 wins, knowing I don't quite have it anymore being in my 70's.

I played in it twice, 17-24 both times 90's.... I did cash fairly well to offset expenses.
I was at the last US Open, when the women formed their tour and walked away from the men. Barry had a cocktail food set up for us all to recognize the moment after the event.
Women had NO chance winning one of the men's, events and chose to form their own WPBA tour and play amongst themselves. Men not allowed, tho women were Always allowed in our events.
We appreciated their donations being there, they knew it only too well.
It's why in many pro sports, women don't compete together not an equal playing field.

Allison Fisher would be a good example, she'd probably need 3 on the wire to jump in with 255 men and give it a go.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the above post. Guess what. It's never going to be fair and
there'll always be some trying to take advantage. Hello life.
Again, it all depends on your mindset. I probably shouldn't try and speak for Allison but I'd bet this....
Get a bunch of men pros together, leave one spot open, then call and say "Hey Allie, we have a spot for
you and are even giving you 3 on the wire so you have a chance to win" then stand back and cringe at the tirade
of venom coming from her mouth.
It's not that she doesn't need the 3 it's that her mindset won't even consider it. If her mindset was able to
entertain any thoughts of accepting that then it's unlikely she'd ever have won even one title much less the
who knows how many that she has.
Sorry for my tirade but this any "pocket asshole, 7 ft tables, whining my handicaps wrong, and dumming
everything down" does little if anything to advance the state of pool. JMO

 

[Island Drive]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the above post. Guess what. It's never going to be fair and
there'll always be some trying to take advantage. Hello life.
Again, it all depends on your mindset. I probably shouldn't try and speak for Allison but I'd bet this....
Get a bunch of men pros together, leave one spot open, then call and say "Hey Allie, we have a spot for
you and are even giving you 3 on the wire so you have a chance to win" then stand back and cringe at the tirade
of venom coming from her mouth.
It's not that she doesn't need the 3 it's that her mindset won't even consider it. If her mindset was able to
entertain any thoughts of accepting that then it's unlikely she'd ever have won even one title much less the
who knows how many that she has.
Sorry for my tirade but this any "pocket asshole, 7 ft tables, whining my handicaps wrong, and dumming
everything down" does little if anything to advance the state of pool. JMO

Good points, but I have no clue what Allison would say.
She and I held a instructor seminar decades ago at the BCA event in Vegas.
Anywho, the pros in the US are roaming cats, most of em, no where near the structured character of the European events, and our play is starting to show/Mosconi event.
If they keep getting drilled, wouldn't be surprised at all, if the Pinoys get in on the action.

Because of this, I'm just tossing out an idea to ''increase play'' create more interest, and mix the pros and semi pros together, as nothing in the past has worked. Period, that's all.
I've supported and played in while working raising a family 3 major men's pro tours, and even turned down an invite to the Worlds one year, because Don Mackey didn't want me to go, so I regretfully didn't in support of my fellow players.

Oh yeah, these events Must be on 9 foot tables. You don't see pro golfers playing par 3 courses on tv, there's a reason why.

Bar no one, just give games on the wire, pure and simple, but it has to be race to 11, winner breaks US Open 9 Ball play, that format WORKS .
This game & format has proven the test of time (it's why Matchroom purchased the rights to it from the Behrman family). Event was held sucessfully for over 40 years, and has created many good lives/careers for my peers. The smart ones got out long ago, Pete Margo was a perfect example.

You could call it the 9/11/64 tour.

9', race to eleven, max 64 players, or 32 if it's a smaller room.

''3 on the wire so you have a chance to win" then stand back and cringe at the tirade
of venom coming from her mouth.''

I would think the venom you mentioned..... would be from a man.

 

[book collector]

What I'd like promoters to consider is??? How do you create player interest/entry numbers for all skill levels?

Games on the wire races to 11....9 ball double elimination, winner breaks.

This is a proven format for the best players in the world (US Open 9 ball).

This way, everyone could enter the event from Jason Shaw to a bar league player and have a chance.

It's better, to enter a competition, with the same entry fee, than to pay ten times less and have ZERO chance.

For example if you were to play Shaw, how many games on the wire would you need? Or Filler, or Shane?

Luck, fatigue, and if you get to the hill with Shaw 10-10, who's got more pressure on that final game?
If your handicap allow you to get 7 games on the wire how about it you tie it up? 10-10.
The pro will be more worn out, and EXPECTED to win, and under more pressure.

An event to cater to unequal skill levels, must put realistic pressure on both players to create a great match with same entry fees.

Even ball bangers would sign up getting 8 games on the wire, just for the chance to play a great player knowing they ''might'' have a chance, makes their event time worth their entry fee.

This format would increase play/interest and event sizes, getting everyone on board and in the same room.

In life, pros and non pros hanging out together is allot more fun, and some of the gals might find this interesting, being in an event with 95% men.

I know in my youth, it would of been allot of fun to mix it up in this manner.

Great idea. One way to keep it honest would be to have players need to compete in local tournaments at least 5 times and get some kind of rating. Then if they play in a tournament getting handicaps , if they shoot more than a certain % over their handicap , they have to take a lesser prize or if it happens too many times they forfeit. There is nothing worse than spotting someone who lays as well or better than you and there are a huge amount of people, that think it's ok to be a creep. You can also rate unknowns a level or 2 higher their first couple of tournaments just to eliminate some of the bs . The legit guys will go ahead and play anyway to get established because their goal is to have fun , the creeps won't do it , because they will have to expose themselves, and not have a chance at a easy payday the first time out.

 

[sparkle84]

If you really want to do something you might consider throwing your support behind what Ed Liddawi is trying to do. It's got a chance of success at least. Regarding the venom, you've obviously never seen Allison when majorly pissed off. There may be a degree of staid restraint to her words but not to her message.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

Women had NO chance winning one of the men's, events and chose to form their own WPBA tour and play amongst themselves. Men not allowed, tho women were Always allowed in our events.
We appreciated their donations being there, they knew it only too well.
It's why in many pro sports, women don't compete together not an equal playing field.

Allison Fisher would be a good example, she'd probably need 3 on the wire to jump in with 255 men and give it a go.

Not True. When Jean Balukus started playing in the Professional Billiard Association (PBA) Open events she beat a few of the better pro men. As a direct result the men formed the Men's Professional Billiard Association (MPBA) for the sole purpose to keep her out of their events.

 

[rwhite]

Joey Ryan talked about this, in a podcast with Mike Page and Steve Ernst. High level players don't like giving that much weight, they aren't looking for a 50-50 proposition.

I bet they don’t. Then let em stay broke.

 

[Jimmorrison]

IMHO, it's unreasonable to expect an even chance, to beat a better player, in a handicapped event. I would possibly suggest using Fargo to find a dead even handicap, for a match. Then use a conversion factor, .85 or .80. The better player has the advantage of his skills rewarding him. The lesser player can still pull off a win, on the right day.