How to make the blue book more accurate

classiccues

classiccues

Morgan set complete...
Silver Member
Well with all the major complaints being about pricing. How would you suggest making it more realistic? Anyone can complain, but can anyone come up with a suggestion on how to make it better...

I have a few, maybe an online form that has...

Collectors: Provide prices (honestly) you would be willing to buy a cue for. Do not provide prices on cues you would not collect.

Dealers: (Honestly) submit your sell price on certain cues. Fairly grade a cue and let the blue book know what you sold the cue for. Total anonymity.

Background checks are a must. If you are going to be a major contributor you need to have some sort of clue. If you have an agenda, lets say the cuemaker you collect isn't as favored as another, if there is even the slightest hint you might try and skew the pricing, you're out. (you know who you are)

Right now, I can see a few areas where politics, favoritism, personal agendas took the front seat over pricing, fairness and the art of collecting. It has to stop, plain and simple. For every person that enjoys collecting, such as Jeff W, you will end up with 10 guys bailing on the hobby because of stuff like this.

The hobby is only going to grow if everyone contributes in a fair, positive manner.

Joe
 
Blue Book is a price Guide like the Kelly Blue Book.

I though the Blue Book was a Price, Guide and nothing more. Price is asked by Seller, and the real price is what a Buyer is Will Pay for said item.

Kind of like when you buy a Car & have a Trade in.
 
But in real life...

classiccues said:
Collectors: Provide prices (honestly) you would be willing to buy a cue for. Do not provide prices on cues you would not collect.

Dealers: (Honestly) submit your sell price on certain cues. Fairly grade a cue and let the blue book know what you sold the cue for. Total anonymity.

Joe
Click to expand...


Joe...we have done business before and I felt like I was treated fairly...but asking DEALERS to be honest is like asking Hanibal Lechter not to be a cannibal!!! I was in the Gun trade for some time and that list you asked for and I'm sure you'd try to be on the square with will never happen. On the other hand, Collectors will always boast their gaggle of rods thinking their toys are worth more than they REALLY are. Guns, cues, cars...same pants different pockets. I'm not knocking your idea, its a solid one but wont happen.
 
Pricing

I THINK THIS IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. PRICING CHANGES WAY TO FAST. THE OTHER PROBLEM IS, YOU SAID ANYBODY THAT WOULDN'T BE HONEST WOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO CONTRIBUTE, AND ALSO THAT IF A DEALER WOULD SKEW PRICING FOR THE MAKERS THEY SELL/COLLECT THEY COULDN'T PROVIDE INPUT. I FEEL THAT ALMOST ANYONE THAT MAKES A LIVING DOING THIS WOULD SKEW THE PRICING IN THEIR FAVOR. JUST MY OPINION THOUGH. I KNOW I GOT A CHUCKLE WHEN I READ THE LIST OF NAMES THAT WENT OVER PRICING FOR THE 3RD EDITION. I'M SURE THERE WAS SOME PRICE SKEWING INVOLVED. I THINK I SHOULD SET THE TASCARELLA PRICING FOR THE NEXT BOOK.(LOL)

I ALSO FEEL THAT IF SOMEONE HONESTLY USES THE BOOK FOR PRICING THAT THEY NEED TO BE CAREFUL. THE ONLY REASON I ENJOY THE BOOK IS FOR THE CUEMAKER BIO'S AND FOR THE PICTURES. I LOVE CUES, THAT'S WHY I AM INVOLVED WITH THIS HOBBY. IF YOU WANT TO COLLECT AS A HOBBY OR BUY/SELL TO MAKE SOME MONEY, YOU NEED TO KNOW THE MARKET, NOT GO BY THE BOOK. I LAUGH EVERYTIME I SEE SOMEONE MENTION "BLUE BOOK PRICE" IN A DESCRIPTION OF A CUE THEY'RE SELLING.

THIS IS A GOOD IDEA,
Collectors: Provide prices (honestly) you would be willing to buy a cue for. Do not provide prices on cues you would not collect.

Dealers: (Honestly) submit your sell price on certain cues. Fairly grade a cue and let the blue book know what you sold the cue for. Total anonymity.

BUT, HOW WOULD YOU MAKE SURE PEOPLE WERE HONEST. JUST BECAUSE I BUY A CUE AT A GREAT DEAL, OR SELL A CUE AT A REALLY GOOD PRICE. WHY WOULD I DISCLOSE THAT INFORMATION. I CAN THINK OF A FEW REASONS WHY I WOULDN'T.
1)MY LOW BUY PRICE WOULD BRING DOWN THE AVERAGE BUY PRICE(HURTING THE VALUE OF MY CUE)
2)IF I BUY A CUE CHEAP, THAT WOULD ALSO BRING DOWN THE AVERAGE SELL PRICE, HURTING ME IF I RESELL THE CUE.

I'M JUST NOT SURE THAT THERE IS A GOOD WAY TO COME UP WITH A PRICE GUIDE. JUST MY 2 CENTS.
 
iconcue said:
joe asked for suggestions on "how to make it better"?

he got 3 replies and not a single suggestion
Click to expand...

As I stated before. I do not think the Blue Book needs fixin as it a Price, Guide and nothing more.

Price is asked by Seller, and the real price is what a Buyer is Will Pay for said item.

Kind of like when you buy a Car & have a Trade in.:cool:
 
PoolSleuth said:
As I stated before. I do not think the Blue Book needs fixin as it a Price, Guide and nothing more.

Price is asked by Seller, and the real price is what a Buyer is Will Pay for said item.

Kind of like when you buy a Car & have a Trade in.:cool:
Click to expand...

You may state anything you would like, but until you try to buy and sell and repeatedly hear "Well in the Blue Book its xxx.." then it becomes relevent. The fact is a car price guide is researched pretty extensively, and by competent people, and they are used by both the buyer and seller all the time.

Joe
 
iconcue said:
joe asked for suggestions on "how to make it better"?

he got 3 replies and not a single suggestion
he did receive reasons why his ideas would not work even though they are proven to work in other industries.

joe i made my suggestion on the thread i already had going on the subject seeing no need to start another.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jeff, I started a new thread because of the thumbs down icon. Sorry about that. Jeff, its just part of a larger problem.

Joe
 
Voodoo Daddy said:
Joe...we have done business before and I felt like I was treated fairly...but asking DEALERS to be honest is like asking Hanibal Lechter not to be a cannibal!!! I was in the Gun trade for some time and that list you asked for and I'm sure you'd try to be on the square with will never happen. On the other hand, Collectors will always boast their gaggle of rods thinking their toys are worth more than they REALLY are. Guns, cues, cars...same pants different pockets. I'm not knocking your idea, its a solid one but wont happen.
Click to expand...

I hope you feel you were treated fairly.. you asked a price and we paid it lol.
I would like to think an anonymous application would help in the honesty. Its not like they would broadcast it to everytone involved. For instance, I just sold a Palmer from the third catalog, I would have no problem submitting the buy price to an independent source. Especially knowing the big picture. I think to many people see the small picture and don't comprehend the larger one.

Joe
 
FAST_N_LOOSE said:
I THINK THIS IS ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. PRICING CHANGES WAY TO FAST. THE OTHER PROBLEM IS, YOU SAID ANYBODY THAT WOULDN'T BE HONEST WOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO CONTRIBUTE, AND ALSO THAT IF A DEALER WOULD SKEW PRICING FOR THE MAKERS THEY SELL/COLLECT THEY COULDN'T PROVIDE INPUT. I FEEL THAT ALMOST ANYONE THAT MAKES A LIVING DOING THIS WOULD SKEW THE PRICING IN THEIR FAVOR. JUST MY OPINION THOUGH. I KNOW I GOT A CHUCKLE WHEN I READ THE LIST OF NAMES THAT WENT OVER PRICING FOR THE 3RD EDITION. I'M SURE THERE WAS SOME PRICE SKEWING INVOLVED. I THINK I SHOULD SET THE TASCARELLA PRICING FOR THE NEXT BOOK.(LOL)

I ALSO FEEL THAT IF SOMEONE HONESTLY USES THE BOOK FOR PRICING THAT THEY NEED TO BE CAREFUL. THE ONLY REASON I ENJOY THE BOOK IS FOR THE CUEMAKER BIO'S AND FOR THE PICTURES. I LOVE CUES, THAT'S WHY I AM INVOLVED WITH THIS HOBBY. IF YOU WANT TO COLLECT AS A HOBBY OR BUY/SELL TO MAKE SOME MONEY, YOU NEED TO KNOW THE MARKET, NOT GO BY THE BOOK. I LAUGH EVERYTIME I SEE SOMEONE MENTION "BLUE BOOK PRICE" IN A DESCRIPTION OF A CUE THEY'RE SELLING.

THIS IS A GOOD IDEA,
Collectors: Provide prices (honestly) you would be willing to buy a cue for. Do not provide prices on cues you would not collect.

Dealers: (Honestly) submit your sell price on certain cues. Fairly grade a cue and let the blue book know what you sold the cue for. Total anonymity.

BUT, HOW WOULD YOU MAKE SURE PEOPLE WERE HONEST. JUST BECAUSE I BUY A CUE AT A GREAT DEAL, OR SELL A CUE AT A REALLY GOOD PRICE. WHY WOULD I DISCLOSE THAT INFORMATION. I CAN THINK OF A FEW REASONS WHY I WOULDN'T.
1)MY LOW BUY PRICE WOULD BRING DOWN THE AVERAGE BUY PRICE(HURTING THE VALUE OF MY CUE)
2)IF I BUY A CUE CHEAP, THAT WOULD ALSO BRING DOWN THE AVERAGE SELL PRICE, HURTING ME IF I RESELL THE CUE.

I'M JUST NOT SURE THAT THERE IS A GOOD WAY TO COME UP WITH A PRICE GUIDE. JUST MY 2 CENTS.
Click to expand...

First thing.. active cuemakers cues have a "retail" price and then a secondary "market" price. If you bought a Tascarella and paid 2500 for it, then submitted by e-mail or secured form that info, it would be tallied with other similar Tascarellas and then a medium could be formulated. I don't think one submission a little high or a little low will skew the pricing that bad.

Joe
 
iconcue said:
joe asked for suggestions on "how to make it better"?

he got 3 replies and not a single suggestion
he did receive reasons why his ideas would not work even though they are proven to work in other industries.

joe i made my suggestion on the thread i already had going on the subject seeing no need to start another.
Click to expand...

OK JEFF,
SUGGESTION, THE PRICING SHOULD BE SET BY A PANEL OF AT LEAST 10 PEOPLE, WITH BROAD VISION IN THE INDUSTRY/HOBBY. NOT JUST DEALERS, BUT COLLECTORS AS WELL. THAT'S ALL I COULD THINK OF THAT WOULD HELP.
 
iconcue said:
and still included in the "bluebook" every 3 to 5 years?
who selects the panel?
Click to expand...

I'M NOT SURE HOW THE PANEL GETS SELECTED. THAT WOULD BE THE TOUGH PART.
 
iconcue said:
joe?
how come there is no dealer organization?
the cue makers have organizations as well as the collectors.
Click to expand...

WHAT COLLECTOR ORGANIZATIONS ARE THERE? I'D LIKE TO LEARN ABOUT THEM.
 
iconcue said:
your analogy shows total ignorance! when you buy and sell cars there is industry compiled accurate valutions. dealers purchase subscriptions and get a new updated hard copy every week with the info available online as well.
the blueook is not CLOSE to being a guide!
Click to expand...


Your reply shows total ignorance. As when I go buy a Car the salesman, or used car manager always tried to convince me the Kelly Blue Book, Edmonds, or the other Car Value Service Guides is bunk, and my make and model is “SOFT” in their market.

Meaning the dealer will only pay X amount of money BEHIND BOOK. It is all a game, to try to get my trade as cheap as possible, and charge me as much as they can for what I want to purchase. Making the Dealership as much money as possible on both ends of the deal.

If you are shopping for a New Car, with the same Trade you can go from dealer to dealer, until you get the best deal.

If you are shopping for a one of a kind collectable pool cue, you can still try to horse trade with the seller.

I love to track Pool Cues for sale on e-bay, as can get an idea of what thing sell for in a competitive market were more than 10 bids for an item transpire before an auction ends.
 
A Suggestion ??

My suggestion is to put out a weekly, or daily, updated price guide based on thousands of daily sales - with price variation by Zip Code.

We could call it Kelley Blue Book. The CD version would be paid for by dealers and the on-line version would be ad supported.


My real suggestion is to use this book as a "guide" and daydreaming tool.

No thinly traded asset that can be home produced and has an "art" component to it can have an open market pricing book. A one-off TAD compared to another one-off TAD is valued differently by different people based on artwork (material cost, production time, design and eye of the beholder).

Now, an 1 of 10,000 Players cue in 95% condition might have a price most of us could agree on, but who cares.

So again, my suggestion is make no changes - other than produce the book more other. Some products can have published pricing that means something. The medium to high-end cue marketplace is not one of them.
 
iconcue said:
joe?
besides gus who's values was mark responsible for?
Click to expand...

Mark wasn't responsible for Gus prices. There were a number of people who had input he was one, but there were a few. To the best of my knowledge his input was mainly Bushkas.

Joe
 
iconcue said:
joe?
how come there is no dealer organization?
the cue makers have organizations as well as the collectors.
Click to expand...

You want an honest answer, or a politically correct one?

Joe
 
iconcue said:
joe?
besides gus who's values was mark responsible for?
Click to expand...

That Mark,He's got the goods!Why don't you buy him out and at the same time get a great Christmas present for yourself?
 
iconcue said:
the reason i asked is he had told me he was responsinble for the gus prices and didnt mention others.
he was mainly responsible for bushka values? doesnt he have one of the biggest bushka collections? and if that is true wouldnt him being responsible for values in the bluebook be a HUGE conflict of interest?
it was also pretty obvious he was responsible for gus's pictures.
Click to expand...

His collection is not the biggest, there are a few collectors that have more. He has alot of cues that are pictured, of course, at the time of the shoots he was asked to show his cues. As far as conflict of interest, it could be. But he has told me his values were prices he would pay, granted he had the money and wanted to buy the cues. (He also sold about 6 or 8 this year and bought a few, so he had some reference)You have to also remember that Gus and George are also very revered by Brad, and they are the cornerstone of most collections.

Joe
 
iconcue said:
then why have a useless price guide in the bluebook? why not take it out and increase the number and quality of pictures and produce the book on an annual basis?
Click to expand...

Doing it Joe's way would yield a better pricing guide than the current model, but it still wouldn't be anywhere near definitive. You might as well try to publish a "blue book" of Modern Art...$5,500 for the splashed sculpture created by Dean, glue-sniffing art student extraordinaire.

When one dealer from Japan can singlehandedly buy out a cuemaker and effectively "set" the prices on all his cues, a reliable pricing guide is just out of the question.

-Roger (rather no prices than misleading ones...and we could always use better/more cue photos)
 
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