How to make the blue book more accurate

iconcue said:
then why have a useless price guide in the bluebook? why not take it out and increase the number and quality of pictures and produce the book on an annual basis?
you also posted on a thread asking for ways to make the bluebook more accurate and didnt offer any. but you were nice enough to take the time to trash other ideas.
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IMO, part of a discussion to improve is also to state that no improvement is needed or possible based on certain concepts.

I'm not sure how taking out the price guide, increasing the pictures and/or publishing it more often would make the "book more accurate," but it would be a better daydreaming tool.
 
iconcue said:
talking about lucky did anyone notice their was not a single color picture of a black boar in the new blue book?
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Interesting...

Personally I searched for the color Black Boar pictures first being that is one cue that has eluded me. Never associated the fact that it may have been intentionally left out or (dare I say it) some retribution.

Thanks for the keen observation and posting...
 
iconcue said:
i didnt mean to imply that!
just meant that i have seen quite a few posters point to black boars as some of the best looking cues they've seen.
why werent there any color pics in the book? just another error due to the rush job.
you can also tell a huge difference in quality of pics taken by hugh tiernan vs. others. there are still pics up on chalkers site that were supposed to be included in the book but were allegedly withheld by martyne and hugh.
but i found even the good pics lacking because they were only showing small sections of a cue. a single cue makers entry in the color section could be reduced to one pic of five of his cues butts.
i really find it difficult to understand how anyone would be satisfied with this book. paying $48 bucks i expect and deserve a better product. but appearently a lot of people think this one is just fine and dandy. i'm sure when the fourth edition comes out (only god knows when or if) and it's equally as bad for $100 bucks they will probably think that just fine too!
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Jeff

I realize you did not say it but it was a thought on my end being that Black Boar is in the top ten if not the top three of great designs.

When it comes to pictures of cues, I am amazed at the quality of pictures you manage to post to this forum or your own site.
Great job.
Is photography your career or is it a hobby on top of collecting cues?

Thanks for your pictures and your keen observation...
Myron
 
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For what it's worth, I talked to another maker of 5-10k cues (not Tony at BB) and he didn't have pics in the book either. His explaination was he had spent a lot of time and effort getting everything together for Martyne and then didn't hear anything for years. He got an email from Brad requesting the pics and specs prices etc again, without enough notice to put together a respectable package he just wrote a short bio and submitted that. Perhaps Anthony had similar circumstances?

Andy
 
DawgAndy said:
Icon
For what it's worth, I talked to another maker of 5-10k cues (not Tony at BB) and he didn't have pics in the book either. His explaination was he had spent a lot of time and effort getting everything together for Martyne and then didn't hear anything for years. He got an email from Brad requesting the pics and specs prices etc again, without enough notice to put together a respectable package he just wrote a short bio and submitted that. Perhaps Anthony had similar circumstances?

Andy
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I know of other cuemakers that this alledgedly happened to and/or had to rush last minute to get pics and prices to Brad for inclusion. I suspect some probably just were fed up and said to hell with it.

For many the process was frustrating...that is something that I can speak to with actual experience. We submitted information and pricing for Libra cues, not once but twice, and the only thing that made it into the manuscript was the first sentence. Not sure why the pricing structure and example cues were not included. It all ties back to what a rush job it seems to have been, and people were frustrated with the fragmented process created by the different author and submission arrangements.

Sean
 
As I continue to thumb through the Blue Book, this project was massive to take on. With all the delays, I now wonder if the final version was pasted together just to get it out the door. From the looks of things, the schedule delivery date came up faster than they anticipated.

I am fairly new to collecting cues but I wonder now is there anything that we can do to promote the sport of billiards, promote the concept of collecting billiard cues and to assist Brad (or whoever) in making the Blue Book better?

When it comes to prices:
My opinion (for what it may be worth), I would like to see more about the cue makers prices and less of the subjective secondary market price guides.

I personally would like to know more about the building techniques that cue makers use (spliced versus cored, etc.).

I have recently completed some work with a cue maker (or two) and their pictures are not included in the Blue Book so I would really like that area improved.
 
Car 54 Where Are You????

iconcue said:
yes! i heard similar stories! martyne screwed a lot of people over. i'm not saying the cue makers were responsible for the problems with the book. i helped take last minute pictures myself since martyne withheld pictures she was supposed to supply. i could have easily taken and supplied some black boar shots if asked. with digital imaging you can take the shots and email them to the editor in less than an hour if needed.
A R E . W E . C L E A R ?
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HAS ANYONE SEEN OR HEARD FROM MARTYNE?
 
I havent got my blue book yet but I will say this from what I heard.. It is inaccurate and just as useful as the 2nd edition as far as cue values..

It is not current and it is not accurate..

I will never use it as a price guide cause we all know that it takes only 2 people to get hot on a certain cuemaker and how it will drive the market value of that cuemaker up.. Then they lose interest in that cuemaker and the value goes down..

We need at least a quarterly value guide to be more accurate...much like any other collectable item has..

Mike
 
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I think one thing thats lost in all of this and one thing I know, Brad loves cues and I am sure he wishes he either started the project and ended the project, or gave the project to someone a little more trustworthy. I am not saying Martyne is not trustworthy, but something happened. Who's fault? I don't think anyone will ever know except the two of them. What I do know is Martyne started with good intentions, I was at two shoots, and she was gung ho and was very excited to be involved. She did complain about some some cuemaker responses but thats to be expected.
Brad did a decent job finishing what he could in the time he was allotted. I know the commander is always to blame, and it was him who gave it to Martyne. But I am sure he didn't expect what happened, to have happened. He also inherited some aspects of the book, and some of the "contributors". I believe Brad was given a deadline and was issued a strong ultimatium by the people above him when this thing was really starting to tank.
That being said there are some bad points, pricing, lack of background by some contributors that lead to said pricing, maybe some picture quality, print quality, missing some cuemakers. But there are good points, new cuemakers, nice color section, better bio's. Its not a total loss. Besides 40.00 dollars on this book is probably as nicely spent as 40 bucks you would blow on something else. If you have 1 and 2 you need three, right?
Some people spend more than that on a Moori and once a Morri delaminates its done. When the book delaminates, you have some nice pin ups. :D

Joe
 
classiccues said:
That being said there are some bad points, pricing, lack of background by some contributors that lead to said pricing, maybe some picture quality, print quality, missing some cuemakers. But there are good points, new cuemakers, nice color section, better bio's. Its not a total loss. Besides 40.00 dollars on this book is probably as nicely spent as 40 bucks you would blow on something else. If you have 1 and 2 you need three, right?
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if some info is updated and some is not and you dont know which is which - it's useless data!
you gave a lot of excuses for edition 3 but from what i've heard pretty much the same complaints were made about the first two editions. martyne wasnt involved in those.
even if they were to get GREAT valuations on cues by the time the book was shipped they would already be changing so why include them?
i think the quality of pics taken by hugh tiernan was better but the shot selection was worse. pics taken by others were not of the quality that should have been in the book. i dont agree with an improved color section and i also think this is the part of the book that a lot of people buy it for!
take out the cue values and it might be $20 not completely wasted.
 
iconcue said:
if some info is updated and some is not and you dont know which is which - it's useless data!
you gave a lot of excuses for edition 3 but from what i've heard pretty much the same complaints were made about the first two editions. martyne wasnt involved in those.
even if they were to get GREAT valuations on cues by the time the book was shipped they would already be changing so why include them?
i think the quality of pics taken by hugh tiernan was better but the shot selection was worse. pics taken by others were not of the quality that should have been in the book. i dont agree with an improved color section and i also think this is the part of the book that a lot of people buy it for!
take out the cue values and it might be $20 not completely wasted.
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Jeff,
When book one came out, everyone was on the bandwagon. Best thing since canned beer etc.. When book two came out, more pictures which everyone loved, still not a huge upgrade in bios but progress was made and such, but the pricing was structure was 50-50. Two came out in an up market swing, some prices showed that, and some didn't. I think there was a big lag time between when prices were submitted and when the book actually came out. Three well, whatever.
Most people buy it for the colored section, thats the truth. Its like a sport illustrated swimsuit issue. For cue junkies.

One thing I have been pondering is maybe there sould be a biannual price guide on deceased cuemakers, and maybe an annual for those with a pulse. Albeit maybe difficult to distinguish the two in some cases, but what ever.

I will tell what I think is a good barometer of the pricing... If you had a
$10,000.00 Bushka, would you trade it for a $10,000.00 Rambow according to the Blue Book? Or if you had a $ 6,000.00 Gus would you trade it for a $ 6,000dollar Gina? Now keep personal feelings for the maker out of this, could you swing one of these trades?

Joe
 
classiccues said:
I will tell what I think is a good barometer of the pricing... If you had a $10,000.00 Bushka, would you trade it for a $10,000.00 Rambow according to the Blue Book? Or if you had a $ 6,000.00 Gus would you trade it for a $ 6,000dollar Gina? Now keep personal feelings for the maker out of this, could you swing one of these trades?
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i can't even swing the question or your implication?
 
iconcue said:
i can't even swing the question or your implication?
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Well since you're a collector, the question is simple.

Cue for cue, leaving personal feelings out of it.

Would you trade a $ 10,000.00 Rambow, based from the BB for a 10k Bushka based off the Blue Book pricing guide. Would you trade a mint 4 window Gus for a mint Gina at $ 6000 or 6500 however you want to read it.

Joe (--- I will answer this question in a day or so...
 
Got my copy of the Blue Book today. It was thrown together without doubt. There is much new information in there but a lot of the info from the past two books was left out (check out the missing Laube info and the completely absent Adams [not Adam] info for example and where's Black Boar????). On the one hand I'm happy to see that this is a shambles because the market will definately establish price, as it should. On the other hand I'm not happy because this was an opportunity for someone who was respected on many levels to produce a valueable assett to the hobby/industry and that opportunity was squandered.

I understand the threatened lawsuit crap that was going on. Simple photographers shouldn't be allowed to carry so much weight. Unfortunately small time people are often able to force their aganda in ways that defy logic and good judgement. Historical accuracy is more important and we didn't get a lot of that in this third edition. Maybe next time.
 
classiccues said:
Well since you're a collector, the question is simple.

Cue for cue, leaving personal feelings out of it.

Would you trade a $ 10,000.00 Rambow, based from the BB for a 10k Bushka based off the Blue Book pricing guide. Would you trade a mint 4 window Gus for a mint Gina at $ 6000 or 6500 however you want to read it.

Joe (--- I will answer this question in a day or so...
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i dont pay any attention to the bluebook pricing so i couldnt tell you :)
 
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