How to save professional pool...no, really.

[Boxcar]

I consider actual mastery of fundamentals first and then extensive prep and development from there before you can play pro. Qualifying for the card in the first place should be far more stringent than "Oh, I rob him and him and him..."

Being a Pro should mean something! Tiger's chip at #16 to win his 4th Masters. Hogan's 1-iron. Nicklaus at Pebble Beach. A guy that makes $25,000 a year playing in pool tournaments isn't a pro at anything. He sleeps in his car.

I am not being critical! There is a way to elevate pool, but arguing on message boards ain't the way. According to some sources there are 80 million golfers in the world and 26 million pool players. There were 204 professional golfers on The PGA Tour Money Leader board last year. Approximately 2000 pool players earned money in organized tournaments during the same time period. There is a partial earnings summary in my post above. There were approximately 428 million dollars in prize money available during the 2022/23 Professional Golf seasons. If someone here tonight knows the total prize money available to Professional Pool Players over that same time period, please post it.

Professional Pool can do better than it is doing. I offered a suggestion in my first post. Maybe it will work, maybe not. One thing is certain, unless it unites and organizes, Professional Pool will always be a second class sport.

 

[Fatboy]

Dead money is the best “thing” for pool. Who ever wins is the best.

What’s to save?

The idea is to attract dead money. Not cut them out.

Fatboy<——-dead $

 

[Fatboy]

Stew boo,

Pool is very local and very personal. It's where you go to BS with your buds, and choke down 1 or 8 adult beverages. I was aiming this thread toward the "professionals" and the difficulties they face just trying to make a living.

Like drug testing now…….

 

[Poolmanis]

nice video here!

 

[sjm]

Dead money is the best “thing” for pool. Who ever wins is the best.

What’s to save?

The idea is to attract dead money. Not cut them out.

Fatboy<——-dead $

Yes, for the most part, there's nothing to save, and while I agree with the spirit of your post, it's tough to fully buy into this line of reasoning.

"Dead money" can add one or more days to a tournament. That increases production costs and also increases participation costs for those deemed "live money," potentially reducing their net income from any given event.

In addition, the longer event and increased participation costs may scare away some desirable participants.

Perhaps additional revenue can offset the additional production costs for the event producer, but it will still be more expensive for the elite players to participate in a given event and that's always going to be a negative.

 

[Boxcar]

Dead money is the best “thing” for pool. Who ever wins is the best.

What’s to save?

The idea is to attract dead money. Not cut them out.

Fatboy<——-dead $

Organize and promote Pro-Ams. But that is still chicken feed.

My goal is to see 100 of the BEST pool players in the world competing for LARGE money on the World Stage. Dead money is chump change compared to REAL, HIGH CLASS SPONSORSHIPS.

 

[Boxcar]

Nobody can make Pool prestigious and elite while hollering, flashing some colored lights, blowing smoke in the air and tossing a few dollars around. Mr. Crane and Willie Mosconi (to name a few) were on TV all the time. They never wore wife beater t-shirts and dyed mullets.

 

[Fatboy]

Yes, for the most part, there's nothing to save, and while I agree with the spirit of your post, it's tough to fully buy into this line of reasoning.

"Dead money" can add one or more days to a tournament. That increases production costs and also increases participation costs for those deemed "live money," potentially reducing their net income from any given event.

In addition, the longer event and increased participation costs may scare away some desirable participants.

Perhaps additional revenue can offset the additional production costs for the event producer, but it will still be more expensive for the elite players to participate in a given event and that's always going to be a negative.

Catch 22

Smaller tourneys with live $ only, ok we’ve had those. High entry barbox tourneys were a thing 5-6-7 years ago. Where did they go?

If guys want to be pros, they have to play a few extra match’s to win in a long form event. Too bad, that’s their job. There are no subsidies in pool or most things in life.

Dead $ seems like a fair trade off to me.

Hard way to make an easy living, and what’s to save? As you correctly said.

Best
Eric <———didn’t read the thread.

 

[Fatboy]

Organize and promote Pro-Ams. But that is still chicken feed.

My goal is to see 100 of the BEST pool players in the world competing for LARGE money on the World Stage. Dead money is chump change compared to REAL, HIGH CLASS SPONSORSHIPS.

Which isn’t gonna happen. This isn’t yacht racing or dressage where Rolex is going to pop up with huge sponsorship monies.

It’s pool, and since I been around it’s suffered a 2nd tier image. It’s associated with lowlife busted out people. I’m not gonna judge, but that’s the image.

It is what it is, we need to do the best we can from within.

Fatboy

 

[Boxcar]

What status quo says about the condition of pool today is its weakest link. To make life better, something must change. To ignore tomorrow is to admit defeat today.

 

[justnum]

Pro pool is a great wash for players from countries with great currency exchange rates. The same countries with great currency exchange rates have other ways for people to make income. America pro pool players may think its bad but compared to their foreign counterparts, they have it all and then some.

Some industries are better kept as secrets to avoid tax consequences.

 

[Boxcar]

Which isn’t gonna happen. This isn’t yacht racing or dressage where Rolex is going to pop up with huge sponsorship monies.

It’s pool, and since I been around it’s suffered a 2nd tier image. It’s associated with lowlife busted out people. I’m not gonna judge, but that’s the image.

It is what it is, we need to do the best we can from within.

Fatboy

I agree with you and I have said the same in earlier posts (maybe last year). If your philosophy drives the bus, then all the folks who seem to be continuously thumbing their beads and clutching their pearls should take one last large slug of reality and find something else to mourn about.

 

[Fatboy]

I agree with you and I have said the same in earlier posts (maybe last year). If your philosophy drives the bus, then all the folks who seem to be continuously thumbing their beads and clutching their pearls should take one last large slug of reality and find something else to mourn about.

I sent a friend of mine a pic recently of Amsterdam Billiards in NYC, a nice room. Not a den of iniquity, in fact far from it.

This friend is an educated 61 year old professional in his field. Makes very solid $, was born into $. Plays tennis, goes sport fishing with clients-the typical country club guy, but he doesn’t golf. Drinks expensive wine, knows lots about cooking.

He knows a lot about a lot of things but zero about pool. Other than pool tables are flat he knows nothing. I don’t think he’s set foot in a pool room in his life.

So I send him a random pic-his first comment is “That joint must be loaded with degens” in a very derogatory way in its context. He wasn’t joking. He is aware that I play pool and have for a long time. He knows I like action, and don’t drink much if anything and have never done drugs.

I’m not mad at his comment, it’s the typical rich guy from UCLA perception of our game/sport. While he respects me-he disrespects pool and dismisses it as a hustle, low life thing. In his defense had he walked into Amsterdam he’d connect the dots very fast and realize it’s a nice room.

If he saw organized pool like the Mcup-he’d have a different opinion. But he hasn’t seen it.

Can that be “fixed”?

In his case yes.

In the masses, unlikely. It’s hard to take a 100 year old stigma and change it.

Fatboy<——-ain’t giving up hope, but old habits die hard

 

[straightline]

Pro pool is a great wash for players from countries with great currency exchange rates. The same countries with great currency exchange rates have other ways for people to make income. America pro pool players may think its bad but compared to their foreign counterparts, they have it all and then some.

Some industries are better kept as secrets to avoid tax consequences.

Like crypto maybe...

 

[jeagle64]

Any single digit handicap golfer can become a pga pro at the local club. It’s almost impossible to become a pga tour pro.


Sent from my iPad using AzBilliards Forums

 

[dendweller]

I sent a friend of mine a pic recently of Amsterdam Billiards in NYC, a nice room. Not a den of iniquity, in fact far from it.

This friend is an educated 61 year old professional in his field. Makes very solid $, was born into $. Plays tennis, goes sport fishing with clients-the typical country club guy, but he doesn’t golf. Drinks expensive wine, knows lots about cooking.

He knows a lot about a lot of things but zero about pool. Other than pool tables are flat he knows nothing. I don’t think he’s set foot in a pool room in his life.

So I send him a random pic-his first comment is “That joint must be loaded with degens” in a very derogatory way in its context. He wasn’t joking. He is aware that I play pool and have for a long time. He knows I like action, and don’t drink much if anything and have never done drugs.

I’m not mad at his comment, it’s the typical rich guy from UCLA perception of our game/sport. While he respects me-he disrespects pool and dismisses it as a hustle, low life thing. In his defense had he walked into Amsterdam he’d connect the dots very fast and realize it’s a nice room.

If he saw organized pool like the Mcup-he’d have a different opinion. But he hasn’t seen it.

Can that be “fixed”?

In his case yes.

In the masses, unlikely. It’s hard to take a 100 year old stigma and change it.

Fatboy<——-ain’t giving up hope, but old habits die hard

About 20 years ago we had 7 pool halls in a 20 mile area around where I live in CT, now where down to 2.

There was a place in the town I live in central CT where Santos was the house pro which meant there'd occasionally be pros coming in for challenge matches. Also, because the challenge of champions was not all that far away we'd get the pros in when that event was running. I've seen Johhny Archer come in and play the house pro for 10,000 and sat on the elevated rail watching Efren and Parica amoung others playing matches with anyone that was willing to loose 50 bucks to em.

If your friend walked into that place he'd walk out. That is my best memory of pool, that and playing tournaments at Action Billiards down in hamden with rap blasting out of the stereo. Not a big fan of rap but it fit the place, it worked. Your friend would of walked out of there too no doubt.

Bottom line in, I kind of liked the un-sanitized version of pool. Maybe I was one of the degens, a computer programming degen.

 

[logical]

I sent a friend of mine a pic recently of Amsterdam Billiards in NYC, a nice room. Not a den of iniquity, in fact far from it.

This friend is an educated 61 year old professional in his field. Makes very solid $, was born into $. Plays tennis, goes sport fishing with clients-the typical country club guy, but he doesn’t golf. Drinks expensive wine, knows lots about cooking.

He knows a lot about a lot of things but zero about pool. Other than pool tables are flat he knows nothing. I don’t think he’s set foot in a pool room in his life.

So I send him a random pic-his first comment is “That joint must be loaded with degens” in a very derogatory way in its context. He wasn’t joking. He is aware that I play pool and have for a long time. He knows I like action, and don’t drink much if anything and have never done drugs.

I’m not mad at his comment, it’s the typical rich guy from UCLA perception of our game/sport. While he respects me-he disrespects pool and dismisses it as a hustle, low life thing. In his defense had he walked into Amsterdam he’d connect the dots very fast and realize it’s a nice room.

If he saw organized pool like the Mcup-he’d have a different opinion. But he hasn’t seen it.

Can that be “fixed”?

In his case yes.

In the masses, unlikely. It’s hard to take a 100 year old stigma and change it.

Fatboy

You don't need everyone to become a pool fan. Most of the country club set thinks NASCAR is still hillbillies running illegal moonshine and Pro Wrestling probably doesn't appeal to more than 5% of people who finished the 10th grade. They are both doing OK.

Pool is stagnant because it has not evolved into a watchable product.

 

[dendweller]

You don't need everyone to become a pool fan. Most of the country club set thinks NASCAR is still hillbillies running illegal moonshine and Pro Wrestling probably doesn't appeal to more than 5% of people who finished the 10th grade. They are both doing OK.

Pool is stagnant because it has not evolved into a watchable product.

Just did a couple searches on the pro bowlers salaries etc. Looks like they have a similar challenge and I don't think there's any stigma or lack or organization there. Some activities are just more watchable than others.

 

[garczar]

What professional pool needs is what we in golf call a Playing Ability Test (PAT). In golf, an aspiring young golfer must play 36 holes of golf on a rated course in one day and beat "the number," the number being determined by the course rating plus a chosen number of strokes. The PGA has a list of courses in each state which can be used to conduct The PAT. Back home the courses were fair tests of a player's skills and the number was usually around 76. If you beat the number of 152 for your 36 hole day's work, you can qualify.

To get this thing started in pool, the Godfathers would need to get together and establish the standards a player must meet or exceed to qualify. Maybe a 6-pack in a certain amount of time...and a 100-ball 14.1 run....and back to back 15 ball rotation runs...you get the picture. Trials could be conducted in selected rooms in various areas which are easily accessed by the largest number of candidates.

Again, the qualifying standards would need to be established by a board of very experienced and very accomplished mature players (the Godfathers). If an association of professional pool players was established, the management and elected president of the group (perhaps the PPPA of A) would regularly meet with the Godfathers and plan for the future, i.e., venues, tournaments by name, Pro-Ams, Celebrity-Ams, you get the picture. A tour, if managed by real leadership, can become self sustaining. If it becomes self sustaining, it can make its own rules. In point, MR and Predator will need you more than you need them.

The PAT is really there so club pros can have a piece of paper that allows them to teach. Pro pool has some issues and this isn't one of them. When a pool tour does get big enough they may have a qualifying program but its not there yet. At this stage MR and Predator ARE running the 'pro show' and will for some time.

 

[The_JV]

I got the sense that the OP was simply pushing the idea of a players union. Not sure how that fixes anything.

Until the game is wanted by the viewing public. Players won't have any leverage. No player has enough draw that them not showing up makes/breaks any event.

Ability tests to join a club that doesn't matter, won't matter. I got a chuckle out of the "6 pack" threshold. How many times would even the best need to pass this..? Organization of the pro game is already underway via MatchRoom. The real problem is why the WPA is pushing back against the only entity willing to invest in a global product. ...and no I don't consider predator sponsored events a global initiative.