How would you attack this?

[mosconiac]

Well, this may be (even more) humbling, but I am willing to share another video...this time I tried Blackjack's draw shot. I tried the shot a number of ways to see how each combination of speed, english, and spin would affect the quality of the break.

I tend to avoid draw on this type of stroke due to my mental block about drawing into the stack and getting stuck. The first three attempts illustrate this well as I ended up on the head rail due to being too aggressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUPyrIBFnQI

Attempt#1: I used medium/firm speed with moderate draw. The CB contacted the top of the lower ball in the “gap” and rebounded quickly off the stack and ran to the end rail. Although I ended up with a (long) pocketable shot, this attempt would have been perfect with less speed.

Attempt#2: Repeated attempt#1 . The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the “gap” in the stack and ran to the end rail. I intended to use less speed, but I was to mentally weak to let up on the stroke. This attempt again resulted in a (long) pocketable shot.

Attempt#3: Repeated attempt#2 . The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the “gap” in the stack and ran to the end rail. Again, I was to mentally weak to let up on the stroke...hence my little show of frustration.

Attempt#4: I repeated attempt#3 with little less speed, less draw, & a touch of outside english (as a concession to my fear of sticking the rack). The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the “gap” in the stack and ran toward the end rail. My frustration/anxiety over using less speed and less draw resulted in a miss.

Attempt#5: I repeated attempt#4 with less speed (finally!), the original draw, & no outside english. Lower speed and moderate draw allowed the CB more time to "hook" before contacting the stack. The CB now contacted the upper ball in the “gap” in the stack and ran to the side rail. Although the CB is close to the side rail, I have some OB options.

Attempt#6: I repeated attempt#5. The CB hooked a bit more and contacted the bottom of the upper ball in the “gap” in the stack and ran to the side rail. Again the CB is close to the side rail...my only simple shot is the 14 in the side.

My conclusion is that going "backward" (toward the center of the table) in this situation is too difficult for me to control. I am less comfortable with the shot (versus the follow shot) and this results in the CB running to the end rail. Your results may vary from mine as you may not have the same fear of this shot.

To mimic Blackjack's results, I would need to really buckle down and trust less speed and more draw (2 tips) in order to solidly contact the upper ball in the “gap” and slide nicely to the center of the table.

My choice in the future will be to continue to stroke this type of shot (where the tangent takes the CB into the "gap") firmly with at least 1-1/2 tips of top spin and a 1/2 tip of inside to mimic what Bob Jewett suggests (bring the CB two rails out to the center of the table).

 

[mosconiac]

I should also mention that the missed break in attempt#4 was not a big surprise to me. My tendency is to miss about every 5th or 6th break shot...which is about what I did here.

This is why my recent high runs are in the range of 50-60 balls. If I don't make a mistake during ball running, I'll typically miss the break shot every 4th rack or 5th rack. I always initiate the run from the first break shot.

My overall best occured about 6-8 years ago and was right at 80 balls on a tight AMF 9' (it had solid AMF 1/4" shims on each side of the pocket). My current Kim Steel is much softer, yet I can't break a longer run.

 

[Blackjack]

Well, this may be (even more) humbling, but I am willing to share another video...this time I tried Blackjack's draw shot. I tried the shot a number of ways to see how each combination of speed, english, and spin would affect the quality of the break.

I tend to avoid draw on this type of stroke due to my mental block about drawing into the stack and getting stuck. The first three attempts illustrate this well as I ended up on the head rail due to being too aggressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUPyrIBFnQI

Attempt#1: I used medium/firm speed with moderate draw. The CB contacted the top of the lower ball in the ?gap? and rebounded quickly off the stack and ran to the end rail. Although I ended up with a (long) pocketable shot, this attempt would have been perfect with less speed.

Attempt#2: Repeated attempt#1 . The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the ?gap? in the stack and ran to the end rail. I intended to use less speed, but I was to mentally weak to let up on the stroke. This attempt again resulted in a (long) pocketable shot.

Attempt#3: Repeated attempt#2 . The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the ?gap? in the stack and ran to the end rail. Again, I was to mentally weak to let up on the stroke...hence my little show of frustration.

Attempt#4: I repeated attempt#3 with little less speed, less draw, & a touch of outside english (as a concession to my fear of sticking the rack). The CB again contacted the top of the lower ball in the ?gap? in the stack and ran toward the end rail. My frustration/anxiety over using less speed and less draw resulted in a miss.

Attempt#5: I repeated attempt#4 with less speed (finally!), the original draw, & no outside english. Lower speed and moderate draw allowed the CB more time to "hook" before contacting the stack. The CB now contacted the upper ball in the ?gap? in the stack and ran to the side rail. Although the CB is close to the side rail, I have some OB options.

Attempt#6: I repeated attempt#5. The CB hooked a bit more and contacted the bottom of the upper ball in the ?gap? in the stack and ran to the side rail. Again the CB is close to the side rail...my only simple shot is the 14 in the side.

My conclusion is that going "backward" (toward the center of the table) in this situation is too difficult for me to control. I am less comfortable with the shot (versus the follow shot) and this results in the CB running to the end rail. Your results may vary from mine as you may not have the same fear of this shot.

To mimic Blackjack's results, I would need to really buckle down and trust less speed and more draw (2 tips) in order to solidly contact the upper ball in the ?gap? and slide nicely to the center of the table.

My choice in the future will be to continue to stroke this type of shot (where the tangent takes the CB into the "gap") firmly with at least 1-1/2 tips of top spin and a 1/2 tip of inside to mimic what Bob Jewett suggests (bring the CB two rails out to the center of the table).

LOL... your expressions made me smile. I believe you were hitting the ball a bit too low. Look back to my original diagram and look at "exactly" where I was contacting the stack with that shot. I was hitting the top ball, I think you were contacting the outer ball on the second row. That akes all teh difference, as does the contact speed.

Many players tend to worry about 3 things:

1) Making the break ball
2) contacting the stack and getting a good spread
3) controlling the cue ball

You were consciously attending to all 3 -

When I have a shot like this, I make sure that the ball is going in - once that is solved - I need to concentrate on what I am going to do with the stack. I generally pick an exact spot on the stack to make contact with - and that becomes my top priority.

I always make sure not to draw my ball all the way up table - or to have it knock off of the side of the rack. Like you said, you were getting frustrated with it, and when you give control back to the elements of the table, things start to suck. At least when I do that, things really start to suck.

When making the break ball, there are 3 speeds -

1. Speed of the stroke
2. Speed of the cue ball
3. Speed of contact (with the stack)

There are different ways to manipulate each, and they can all be different. I have a few more shots like this that I can diagram, or videotape, threads such as this one are great learning tools.

 

[mosconiac]

...threads such as this one are great learning tools.

You aren't kidding! I'm learning a lot from your comments and by reviewing the actual video to see where the OB entered the pocket, where the CB contacted the stack, how the balls spread after contact...all of these things are tough to judge accurately when in the heat of the moment. It's interesting when the facts (the video) differ from what I thought happened.

For example, I thought I was catching the upper ball in the gap in the early attempts because the CB ran so quickly off the stack. In fact, I was catching the top of the lower ball in the gap (the CB stayed on the tangent line due to the excessive speed).

Thanks for your input!

 

[Blackjack]

You aren't kidding! I'm learning a lot from your comments and by reviewing the actual video to see where the OB entered the pocket, where the CB contacted the stack, how the balls spread after contact...all of these things are tough to judge accurately when in the heat of the moment. It's interesting when the facts (the video) differ from what I thought happened.

For example, I thought I was catching the upper ball in the gap in the early attempts because the CB ran so quickly off the stack. In fact, I was catching the top of the lower ball in the gap (the CB stayed on the tangent line due to the excessive speed).

Thanks for your input!

Here is a clearer diagram, along with some tips on how to properly control the cue ball (at least this is how I do it)...

 

[dave sutton]

Here is a clearer diagram, along with some tips on how to properly control the cue ball (at least this is how I do it)...

great pic... this is how i play it too. tip below center and tip of outside english

 

[nick serdula]

I must be blind

Here is a clearer diagram, along with some tips on how to properly control the cue ball (at least this is how I do it)...

The natual angle is straight into the 13 ball with a stop ball using a hair of right to drive the rock into the pack and a hair of botton to hold the cue back of the pack a half foot. This shot is is more consistant and shot harder. And bairly cueing the ball right forces the weight of the cueball left off a solid hit on the pack.
If you have no center ball control you have to follow the shot and avoid the corner pocket! I have to add I never liked shooting break shots from that far away from the beak ball.
This is why I don't play straight. It hurts my fragile little mind.
Nick

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but a lot depends on where you make the ball in the pocket. If you follow with straight high english and undercut the ball an inch or so (but still make it) you might hit a ball square in the rack and scratch. Or if you draw the ball and over cut it you might hit in between two balls and scratch. Sometimes it's a hard call.
Mizerak had the theory that on a more severe cut you followed; if the shot was more of a straight shot, you used draw or center and let the weight of the rack bring the cue ball back.

Danny

 

[nick serdula]

No wonder my brain hurts

I have to think about what others already know!
Nick

 

[mosconiac]

The natual angle is straight into the 13 ball...

Actually, the tangent takes the CB directly into the "gap" between the 13 & 3. Check post#12 for an illustration. Anyway, this is the core of the coversation...do you follow or draw to avoid the danger of the gap?

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but a lot depends on where you make the ball in the pocket...

I loosely discussed this in my first posting with a video of my follow shots (post#31). I mentioned that I tend to undercut that type of shot. I make adjustments for that fact when choosing how much follow and speed to use...all in an effort to avoid falling into the gap.

...Mizerak had the theory that on a more severe cut you followed; if the shot was more of a straight shot, you used draw or center and let the weight of the rack bring the cue ball back.

I learned this same general principle from Grady's break shots & key balls video. I believe there can be exceptions to the rule of thumb, but for most shots its applicable. For example, I am more confortable following this type of shot...that should weigh into my decision somewhere.

 

[jdr]

Mizerak had the theory that on a more severe cut you followed; if the shot was more of a straight shot, you used draw or center and let the weight of the rack bring the cue ball back.

I was watching the John Schmidt - Thomas Engert video on Propoolvideo.com and it looked like they followed this rule of thumb. Interestingly, it looked like Engert played for the straighter shot and John played for the more severe cut. I wonder if it's a different school of strategy. (I'm very new to 14.1 )

 

[Blackjack]

I was watching the John Schmidt - Thomas Engert video on Propoolvideo.com and it looked like they followed this rule of thumb. Interestingly, it looked like Engert played for the straighter shot and John played for the more severe cut. I wonder if it's a different school of strategy. (I'm very new to 14.1 )

JDR

Get a copy of John Schmidt's 245 ball run which is available on DVD. John explains the when he sees guys lining up straight on their break ball, that he knows that they aren't playing confidently. However, when he sees guys set up angled break shots such as the shot illustrated in this thread, he knows that these are the guys that are going to get nto the stack and run some high numbers.

If you are learning how to play the game, I believe that John's DVD is one of the best learning tools out there, along with anything that has Jim Rempe's name on it - and believe me - Grady's knowledge is incredible!

 

[nick serdula]

90 degrees

From the object ball into the pocket is straight into the 13 is 90 degrees.
That is what I can control. If you do as I said you will do as most great straight players do. Smash the $hit out of them.
Nick