How would you rule in this situation?

kobyp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I was playing league last night (unsanctioned VNEA) and a guy on our team scratched on the 8 (rules say it's a loss). His opponent walked up, took BIH and missed leaving my teammate a short, straight shot on the 8 which he made.

Then the opponent realized what had happened, and tried to say that he won..blah blah blah. But my teammate argued that since he kept shooting, it wasn't a loss.

We called the league director, he decided in our favor which kinda suprised me. The opponent was furious, but he and I have history so I thought it was quite entertaining.

All Biased opinions of the players aside, I'm not sure how I would rule this. My thoughts are that the opponent should know the rules and it's his loss if he doesn't.


What do you guys think?
 

soulcatcher

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As soon as the guy takes the next shot, your players scratch was eliminated. It is up to the opponent to realize the 8 ball scratch.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
soulcatcher said:
As soon as the guy takes the next shot, your players scratch was eliminated. It is up to the opponent to realize the 8 ball scratch.

I second that. As an example, on the accustats greatest hits tape 1, in a pro match, someone broke a 9-ball rack. A ball hit inside the pocket and bounced out. Neither opponent noticed that nothing dropped, and the breaker continued shooting thinking a ball went in, and won the rack. He was credited the win. The rule is, and I'm paraphrasing "if a foul takes place, it must be enforced before the next shot". Now if you try to call a foul and the player ignores you and continues to shoot to try to null your call, that may be unsportmanlike conduct and may cost the guy the game outright.
 

BVal

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
kobyp said:
I was playing league last night (unsanctioned VNEA) and a guy on our team scratched on the 8 (rules say it's a loss). His opponent walked up, took BIH and missed leaving my teammate a short, straight shot on the 8 which he made.

Then the opponent realized what had happened, and tried to say that he won..blah blah blah. But my teammate argued that since he kept shooting, it wasn't a loss.

We called the league director, he decided in our favor which kinda suprised me. The opponent was furious, but he and I have history so I thought it was quite entertaining.

All Biased opinions of the players aside, I'm not sure how I would rule this. My thoughts are that the opponent should know the rules and it's his loss if he doesn't.


What do you guys think?
Didn't the guy on your team attempt to shake the guys hand after he scratched on the 8-ball?
Personally I would have a hard time taking a win when I know I lost outright.

BVal
 

kobyp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hang-the-9 said:
I second that. As an example, on the accustats greatest hits tape 1, in a pro match, someone broke a 9-ball rack. A ball hit inside the pocket and bounced out. Neither opponent noticed that nothing dropped, and the breaker continued shooting thinking a ball went in, and won the rack. He was credited the win. The rule is, and I'm paraphrasing "if a foul takes place, it must be enforced before the next shot". Now if you try to call a foul and the player ignores you and continues to shoot to try to null your call, that may be unsportmanlike conduct and may cost the guy the game outright.


I agree 100%. But it was between my teammate and the opponent, we couldn't get involved. And it was a pattern, that team didn't pay attention to shots all night. They let a few BIH opportunities pass them by because they weren't watching.

I don't feel bad at all, I'm extremely competitive and I'm not going to give them anything unless they call the fouls. I don't mean cheating, but if I slow roll a ball and it hangs in the pocket and nothing has hit a rail. I keep my mouth shut unless they ask if that's BIH.
 

BVal

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
kobyp said:
I agree 100%. But it was between my teammate and the opponent, we couldn't get involved. And it was a pattern, that team didn't pay attention to shots all night. They let a few BIH opportunities pass them by because they weren't watching.

I don't feel bad at all, I'm extremely competitive and I'm not going to give them anything unless they call the fouls. I don't mean cheating, but if I slow roll a ball and it hangs in the pocket and nothing has hit a rail. I keep my mouth shut unless they ask if that's BIH.

You are not necesarrily cheating them but cheating yourself. JMO. I am a competitive person too but I don't compromise my integrity for the sake of competition. Again JMO.

BVal
 

av84fun

Banned
soulcatcher said:
As soon as the guy takes the next shot, your players scratch was eliminated. It is up to the opponent to realize the 8 ball scratch.

Correct. The World Standard Rules of 8 Ball make that very clear. when the OP's partner continued play after the 8 ball scratch, the foul was extinguished.

A player loses the game by committing any of the following infractions:
1. Fouls when pocketing the 8-ball (exception: see 8-Ball Pocketed On The
Break).
2. Pockets the 8-ball on the same stroke as the last of his group of balls.
3. Jumps the 8-ball off the table at any time.
4. Pockets the 8-ball in a pocket other than the one designated.
5. Pockets the 8-ball when it is not the legal object ball.


Note: All infractions must be called before another shot is taken, or else it will be deemed that no infraction
occurred.


I don't fault the opponent. Rules are rules. As soon as the OP's partner continued the game there was no foul and no loss of game. I don't think any question of "sportsmanship" is proper when the rules are being complied with.

All players are duty bound to know the rules and to pay attention to the game. The TD blew that call very badly.

Regards,
Jim
 

Hail Mary Shot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
this is more of a question of character on the part of your teammate. regardless whether the opponent took BIH, your buddy could had simply congratulated the fella before attempting a shot. by this statement, I'm saying that your buddy didn't deserve the win.
 

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Actually, the answer to this question might end up changing in the very near future. In the BCA Amateur Championships in Las Vegas this year, there is a rule change which is not exactly the same situation but could create new logic to abide by:

2.4 ESTABLISHING GROUPS

Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot, and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by any player or official that the players are shooting the wrong groups and a foul was not called in a timely manner, the game will be replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again.


http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/SignificantRuleChanges/tabid/442/Default.aspx


Now, regarding the Original Poster's stated question, I still think it should be loss of game BUT it's not certain how that's going to be ruled in the future or in any official amateur setting.
 

kobyp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BVal said:
Didn't the guy on your team attempt to shake the guys hand after he scratched on the 8-ball?
Personally I would have a hard time taking a win when I know I lost outright.

BVal

He was substituting for us, and I guess he just thought it wasn't a loss at first.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
kobyp said:
... What do you guys think?
I think that both players are supposed to do their best to make sure that all the rules are followed. That includes calling fouls on yourself when there is no referee. I realize that in many league and match situations the attitude is "screw him before he screws me" but I don't think that's the way the game should be played.

If I'm the TD, the guy who remained silent when he knew he had lost would sit out for the rest of the night.
 

kobyp

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
BVal said:
You are not necesarrily cheating them but cheating yourself. JMO. I am a competitive person too but I don't compromise my integrity for the sake of competition. Again JMO.

BVal

I understand what you are saying. And I do feel bad sometimes, but I'm not the babysitter. If they are at the jukebox instead of watching the game, it's their fault.

But I agree with you that it still isn't 100% honest and respectable.
 

Hail Mary Shot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
kobyp said:
He was substituting for us, and I guess he just thought it wasn't a loss at first.


I see, then it's a question of character for your team as a whole. geez, you just incriminated your team, man. :D :D :D
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hail Mary Shot said:
this is more of a question of character on the part of your teammate. regardless whether the opponent took BIH, your buddy could had simply congratulated the fella before attempting a shot. by this statement, I'm saying that your buddy didn't deserve the win.

I think he did deserve the win, the other player for sure did not deserve to win for not paying attention to the game. Now if I approached him to shake hands when I lost, and he told me "I though it was just BIH for me" I would tell him he's mistaken and he won. Since that did not take place, the guy to went to shoot after the scratch is at fault.

I have seen people take BIH when no foul was done, in a tournament, what should we do then? Act nice and have the guy place the ball again and keep shooting? Once he picked up the ball when he should not have, that is a foul on him, this is the same thing. I have seen a shooting friend of mine do that, guy miscued, but did not scratch. My friend took BIH hearing the miscue but not paying attention to the shot which reached the rail (this was 9-ball). I saw this happen, but did not say anything, neither did his opponent. A. I would have been wrong for saying something, even though it would have been the friendly thing to do. B. his opponent could have stopped him before my friend picked up the ball but C. is the key here.. my friend is at fault for not paying attention and neither me nor his opponent are responsible or required to point out his mistake. He lost that game, and the guy broke and ran on him to win his set. Lesson learned.
 

Hail Mary Shot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
kobyp said:
I understand what you are saying. And I do feel bad sometimes, but I'm not the babysitter. If they are at the jukebox instead of watching the game, it's their fault.

But I agree with you that it still isn't 100% honest and respectable.

you just reminded me of what Earl did in his match against Charlie Williams. that sight was not something to be proud of or even worth it. just imagine when a lot of people are there watching something like that happen. I dunno if you can swallow such thing, even if people talk about how you made the game look bad by tolerating such actions.

in short, you tolerated an illegal act and made a somewhat legal basis for such action. it's like trying to justify your cheating.
 
Last edited:

Thunderball

Auto rep for belly laughs
Silver Member
If they are at the jukebox instead of watching the game, it's their fault.

But I agree with you that it still isn't 100% honest and respectable.

I agree koby....I'm not gonna spend all night calling fouls on myself.I aint gonna lie about a bad hit or no rail ect,but if you want fouls called, ya might wanna pay enough attention to call em.

That sir does not make me dishonest or disrespectable nor does it you.The OP has an obligation here as well,even when not at the table.I sure feel I do when I'm in the chair.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob Jewett said:
I think that both players are supposed to do their best to make sure that all the rules are followed. That includes calling fouls on yourself when there is no referee. I realize that in many league and match situations the attitude is "screw him before he screws me" but I don't think that's the way the game should be played.

If I'm the TD, the guy who remained silent when he knew he had lost would sit out for the rest of the night.

This is not a "calling a foul on yourself" type of situation. That would be if you move a ball when the opponent or ref is not looking, or you hit the cueball with your stick so only you notice. If your opponent decides to act against the rules, unless it's a friendly practice game or even a friendly money game, I would not feel guilty about letting do so, and then point out what he did. For all we know they other guy did not realize what happened untill after he sunk the 8 ball 2 shots later. A lot of times both players don't know the rules, or only one does. I have had to explain that someone commited a foul when they thought they did not a lot, as I'm sure we all have had to. Or explain why something I did is not a foul when they insisted it was. Let's say I shoot a shot and my opponent thinks he has BIH, when I know the shot was good, he picks up the cueball. Since he did not know the rule, do I forgive him for that? Why am I now punished because he went into a game unprepared?
 

Hail Mary Shot

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
hang-the-9 said:
I think he did deserve the win, the other player for sure did not deserve to win for not paying attention to the game. Now if I approached him to shake hands when I lost, and he told me "I though it was just BIH for me" I would tell him he's mistaken and he won. Since that did not take place, the guy to went to shoot after the scratch is at fault.

I have seen people take BIH when no foul was done, in a tournament, what should we do then? Act nice and have the guy place the ball again and keep shooting? Once he picked up the ball when he should not have, that is a foul on him, this is the same thing. I have seen a shooting friend of mine do that, guy miscued, but did not scratch. My friend took BIH hearing the miscue but not paying attention to the shot which reached the rail (this was 9-ball). I saw this happen, but did not say anything, neither did his opponent. A. I would have been wrong for saying something, even though it would have been the friendly thing to do. B. his opponent could have stopped him before my friend picked up the ball but C. is the key here.. my friend is at fault for not paying attention and neither me nor his opponent are responsible or required to point out his mistake. He lost that game, and the guy broke and ran on him to win his set. Lesson learned.

that's the sad thing about the game. people call fouls on things which aren't and refuse to call fouls on themselves when it is apparent that they did foul. that is the importance of a witness to justify such foul argument between players. otherwise, it would be a finger pointing battle.
 

Cuebacca

________
Silver Member
Are there exceptions to the rule that says fouls must be called before the next shot?

Here's an example:

Player A shoots his solid and makes it, but accidentally pockets the 8 ball too. For whatever reason, neither player notice that the 8 ball was pocketed. Player A plays his next shot and misses. Suddenly they notice that the 8 ball is gone. If all fouls must be called on the shot on which they occurred, with no exceptions, what would happen there? Re-rack? Spot the 8? :confused:
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cuebacca said:
Are there exceptions to the rule that says fouls must be called before the next shot?

Here's an example:

Player A shoots his solid and makes it, but accidentally pockets the 8 ball too. For whatever reason, neither player notice that the 8 ball was pocketed. Player A plays his next shot and misses. Suddenly they notice that the 8 ball is gone. If all fouls must be called on the shot on which they occurred, with no exceptions, what would happen there? Re-rack? Spot the 8? :confused:

I think in this situation, since neither player can actually win the game as it is, and since they played with the 8-ball not spotted which could and probably did affect their game play (no 8-ball to move around for position say), the rack should be re-played. If the rules say that player A should have lost if he pockets the 8, those rules would be voided after the palyers played as if nothing happened. If it can be proven that player A was aware th 8 was gone, he should be charged with unsportsmanlike conduct and be charged a loss IMHO.

Player B, who in theory should be acting as part ref for the match, may complain as Player A got away with not having a loss, but that is why vigliance is key. I think some of these rules are actually written up, but there will always be situations where the judgement of the ref needs to be counted. I do blieve there is a section of the rulebook that deals with what to do when no official ref is watching over the game.
 
Top