How would you rule in this situation?

I was playing in the finals of a 3 man team tourney in DCC a few years ago. My game against Jason Kirkwood got bogged down with the 8 tied up. He had about 6 balls on the table. One of his balls, near the side pocket was perfect to break his balls away from the 8. I shot his ball into the corner, with absolutely no way to avoid the scratch. Both of us concentrating so hard on winning this game for our team. He saw that I scratched on purpose, and took the cueball out and bgan to position another ball into the same area. I scratched again, and he shot again. I ended up scaratching 3 times on the 8. Neither of us realizing what was happening. Both our teams were going nuts watching too.
Now, as for your friend, if he realized he had lost, he never should have let his opponent shoot. JMO.
 
Thunderball said:
I agree koby....I'm not gonna spend all night calling fouls on myself.I aint gonna lie about a bad hit or no rail ect,but if you want fouls called, ya might wanna pay enough attention to call em.

That sir does not make me dishonest or disrespectable nor does it you.The OP has an obligation here as well,even when not at the table.I sure feel I do when I'm in the chair.
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I'm with you. I have in many cases picked up the cue and handed it to the other player when I have fouled. However, if I do not, and the other player does not ask if it was a foul, too bad for them. Also, this case is the worst possible act of the opponent not paying attention - The opponent did not even know he was shooting at the 8 when he scratched. The opponent deserves the loss for not paying attention to the game.
 
hang-the-9 said:
I think in this situation, since neither player can actually win the game as it is, and since they played with the 8-ball not spotted which could and probably did affect their game play (no 8-ball to move around for position say), the rack should be re-played. If the rules say that player A should have lost if he pockets the 8, those rules would be voided after the palyers played as if nothing happened. If it can be proven that player A was aware th 8 was gone, he should be charged with unsportsmanlike conduct and be charged a loss IMHO.

Player B, who in theory should be acting as part ref for the match, may complain as Player A got away with not having a loss, but that is why vigliance is key. I think some of these rules are actually written up, but there will always be situations where the judgement of the ref needs to be counted. I do blieve there is a section of the rulebook that deals with what to do when no official ref is watching over the game.
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Good post. I think I agree with this. Although I think that many Player B's may have a minor fit in this situation, and many Player A's will probably be tempted to concede the game once they realize what happened.

I guess the lesson is to always keep one eye on the table to avoid ending up in one of these painful situations. :o (The other eye I will keep on my cues. :cool: :D)
 
Cuebacca said:
Good post. I think I agree with this. Although I think that many Player B's may have a minor fit in this situation, and many Player A's will probably be tempted to concede the game once they realize what happened.

I guess the lesson is to always keep one eye on the table to avoid ending up in one of these painful situations. :o (The other eye I will keep on my cues. :cool: :D)
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Don't forget the 3rd eye for watching the cleavage.

Oh.... that sounded a lot dirtier that it should have been :D ;)
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think that both players are supposed to do their best to make sure that all the rules are followed. That includes calling fouls on yourself when there is no referee. I realize that in many league and match situations the attitude is "screw him before he screws me" but I don't think that's the way the game should be played.

If I'm the TD, the guy who remained silent when he knew he had lost would sit out for the rest of the night.
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What rule would you rely on to justify that disqualification? If "unsportsmanlike conduct" is implicated, that is a very slippery slope.

Is it "unsportsmanlike" for a player not to warn an oppenent that he is about to shoot a ball out of sequence or of the wrong variety (in 8 Ball)?

Those with the highest moral standards might say that such a warning should be given. Would you disqualify a player who failed to issue such a warning?

IMHO, the rules are the rules and if no rule exists to cover a given situation then arguments about "morality" should not be invoked.

I know of no rule obligating a player to warn another player of a rule violation.

In fact, the rules SPECIFICALLY provide that if a shot takes place after a foul has been commited, that foul is extinguished...period. That rule CLEARLY contemplates that fouls CAN be commited but overlooked or ignored and thereby deemed not to exist.

The rules are silent on WHY the foul was overlooked or ignored.

In fact, it was the OP's partner who elected to continue play. He was not forced to do so by the opponent. If there is a "moral obligation" it would be
that the players have a fundamental responsibility to know the rules of the game they are playing and to CAREFULLY monitor play in the absence of a referee.

It was CLEARLY the fault of the OP's team to voluntarily continue play and when they did so, the prior foul was CANCELED.

My opinion would change if the RULES stated that players are obligated to call fouls on themselves, failing which, they are guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct.

But AFAIK, there is no such rule.

Personally, I ROUTINELY call fouls on myself but not not out of any sense of morality...whatsoever. Rather, I do so because it is my personal choice to win...or lose...in complaince with the outcome as it would be in a refereed match.

If in fact, it was pointed out to me that an opponent had commited a foul that I didn't see or was unaware of the rules...I would be upset WITH MYSELF for not paying attention or being ignorant of the rules.

If there is no rule requiring self-calling of fouls of fouls or failing to warn another player of an impending foul, then the TD in this case made a BAD decision.

Regards,
Jim

Regards,
Jim
 
i would have openly admitted to the scratch and loss even if the opponnent got the cue ball and was to play BIH. I would rather lose with dignity than win in that matter.
 
Cuebacca said:
Are there exceptions to the rule that says fouls must be called before the next shot?

Here's an example:

Player A shoots his solid and makes it, but accidentally pockets the 8 ball too. For whatever reason, neither player notice that the 8 ball was pocketed. Player A plays his next shot and misses. Suddenly they notice that the 8 ball is gone. If all fouls must be called on the shot on which they occurred, with no exceptions, what would happen there? Re-rack? Spot the 8? :confused:
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IMHO, the rack ENDED when the 8 ball dropped.

3.8 Losing the Rack
The shooter loses if he
(a) fouls when pocketing the eight ball;
(b) pockets the eight ball before his group is cleared;
(c) pockets the eight ball in an uncalled pocket; or
(d) drives the eight ball off the table.
These do not apply to the break shot. (See 3.3 Break Shot.)

According to (b) pocketing the 8 before the player's group is cleared is not referred to as a "foul" that is subject to being extinguished by a subsequent shot.

Rather, it says that the rack is LOST by the early pocketing of the 8 ball. Any subsequent shots would be meaningless.

Regards,
Jim
 
av84fun said:
IMHO, the rack ENDED when the 8 ball dropped.

3.8 Losing the Rack
The shooter loses if he
(a) fouls when pocketing the eight ball;
(b) pockets the eight ball before his group is cleared;
(c) pockets the eight ball in an uncalled pocket; or
(d) drives the eight ball off the table.
These do not apply to the break shot. (See 3.3 Break Shot.)

According to (b) pocketing the 8 before the player's group is cleared is not referred to as a "foul" that is subject to being extinguished by a subsequent shot.

Rather, it says that the rack is LOST by the early pocketing of the 8 ball. Any subsequent shots would be meaningless.

Regards,
Jim
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Yeah, that's pretty much the reasoning I had in mind when I first made the post. I think that if the rack is lost and over in the example I gave, then it is probably also lost and over in the original scenario given in this thread.

What I mean is, by the same reasoning, when the shooter scratched the cue ball while shooting the 8, the game was lost and over. In BCA rules, of course, it would just be ball-in-hand, but in the rule set they were using, I think the rack was done at that point.

I guess the only thing that would make it trickier in the example I gave would be that it might be hard to determine who knocked the 8-ball in if no one had actually seen it happen. That was why I think maybe Hang-the-9's ruling could be a fair one in the example I gave.
 
madhaterm3 said:
i would have openly admitted to the scratch and loss even if the opponnent got the cue ball and was to play BIH. I would rather lose with dignity than win in that matter.
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Me too. What comes around goes around, even if nobody else notices.
 
After we were through for the night, and the opponent was still pissing&moaning, my teammate did offer to play the game over but the opponent refused.

Instead, he wrote a few vulgar sentences on his score sheet, signed it, sealed it, and put it in the envelope for the league operator to find. IMO, that was kinda childish.
 
kobyp said:
After we were through for the night, and the opponent was still pissing&moaning, my teammate did offer to play the game over but the opponent refused.

Instead, he wrote a few vulgar sentences on his score sheet, signed it, sealed it, and put it in the envelope for the league operator to find. IMO, that was kinda childish.
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Put yourself in his (the opponents) shoes and seriously think about how you would feel if you felt you were cheated.

edit: I am not saying what the opponent did was right but I have been cheated before and it didn't feel good. Sometimes it takes a little longer to think with a clear mind.
 
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kobyp said:
After we were through for the night, and the opponent was still pissing&moaning, my teammate did offer to play the game over but the opponent refused.

Instead, he wrote a few vulgar sentences on his score sheet, signed it, sealed it, and put it in the envelope for the league operator to find. IMO, that was kinda childish.
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that right there tells what type of person you are dealing with. I can't stand people crying over spilled milk! It's over. move on.
 
kobyp said:
After we were through for the night, and the opponent was still pissing&moaning, my teammate did offer to play the game over but the opponent refused.

Instead, he wrote a few vulgar sentences on his score sheet, signed it, sealed it, and put it in the envelope for the league operator to find. IMO, that was kinda childish.
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I agree, no point in throwing a tantrum over it. He should at least feel happy that he'll probably be a lot more observant in the future. :D
 
av84fun said:
IMHO, the rack ENDED when the 8 ball dropped.

3.8 Losing the Rack
The shooter loses if he
(a) fouls when pocketing the eight ball;
(b) pockets the eight ball before his group is cleared;
(c) pockets the eight ball in an uncalled pocket; or
(d) drives the eight ball off the table.
These do not apply to the break shot. (See 3.3 Break Shot.)

According to (b) pocketing the 8 before the player's group is cleared is not referred to as a "foul" that is subject to being extinguished by a subsequent shot.

Rather, it says that the rack is LOST by the early pocketing of the 8 ball. Any subsequent shots would be meaningless.

Regards,
Jim
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I can see a ref ruling this way. I really do like what Bob Jewett has to say about this. To a degree, we are responsible for refing our own matches and the real point of refing is to get it right. The game was over the moment the foul occurred. That doesn't make the other ruling wrong but it does promote a degree of dishonesty. It SHOULD be wrong but that doesn't make it an incorrect ruling.
 
I also think that the game ended when the 8 ball fell. What the winner of the game does with the cueball before the next game starts is irrelevant.

Also, all of you who think that you aren't responsible for fouls etc. if you opponent doesn't notice them are shady. Would you steal from a store if you knew you wouldn't get caught? If you took something without paying for it and didn't get caught, did you just get a really good deal? I watch carefully when my opponents are shooting, but only because of people like you. I think that what Earl did is less reprehensible than this. At least his match had a referee, which removes some responsibility from the players.
 
longhair said:
I also think that the game ended when the 8 ball fell. What the winner of the game does with the cueball before the next game starts is irrelevant.

Also, all of you who think that you aren't responsible for fouls etc. if you opponent doesn't notice them are shady. Would you steal from a store if you knew you wouldn't get caught? If you took something without paying for it and didn't get caught, did you just get a really good deal? I watch carefully when my opponents are shooting, but only because of people like you. I think that what Earl did is less reprehensible than this. At least his match had a referee, which removes some responsibility from the players.
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Can someone fill me in on what Earl did, and when?
 
BVal said:
Put yourself in his (the opponents) shoes and seriously think about how you would feel if you felt you were cheated.

edit: I am not saying what the opponent did was right but I have been cheated before and it didn't feel good. Sometimes it takes a little longer to think with a clear mind.
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Good point, but I'd be more angry at myself for having my head up my ass and not paying attention or knowing the rules. And I've lost before for stupid things like that, it happens. And I'll almost bet that at some point in time it will happen again. That's why I watch like a hawk, and sometimes get someone that isn't on either team that knows the rules to watch a shot to make sure it was a good hit or not.
 
BVal said:
Put yourself in his (the opponents) shoes and seriously think about how you would feel if you felt you were cheated.

edit: I am not saying what the opponent did was right but I have been cheated before and it didn't feel good. Sometimes it takes a little longer to think with a clear mind.
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I think he felt more embarassed for making the mistake he did and was trying to soothe his ego than actually felt cheated. I did not see any cheating in the scenario. Player A scratched.. from what I read (maybe not the case) Player B grabbed the cueball from the pocket and proceded to shoot. Player A did not scratch and say "you have BIH" or try to hide the fact that he scratched. Once Player B took his shot it is the same thing as admitting to the fact that it was his turn. He was not cheated except by his own mistake. If anything, by claiming he won, he was trying to cheat because the rules contradict him. We don't know what player A was doing or thinking during the shots. Maybe he thought it was just BIH, or in the focus of the match just plain forgot. I have seen fairly good players get behind a lot, then do stupid things. A good player I was beating 4-1 in a race to 5, actually shot, made a ball, stood over the shot for a few seconds, then grabbed the cueball to reposition it. Now I just gave him BIH the shot before, but after he made a shot, I really don't think he is allowed to move the ball :eek:
 
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