This may not apply to you DCP but, a table I play jaws out like you described. Its a commercial table with plastic pockets. Two of the screws on the plastic has come out so it sticks out a bit. If you hit the inside of that point it jaws out like you described. It's kind of annoying, you have aim the shot to the inside of the pocket or it ain't goin in.
How'd This Happen?
- Thread starter DrCue'sProtege
- Start date
Cameron Smith said:
I think this applies. I've never met a table that will accept a ball into the side pocket off the facing at high speed. The speed at which the pocket accepts the ball varies, but they all do it from what I've seen. This is one of the tests I do on a table I've never played on, 'how hard can I drive a ball into the side off the facing?' test. If you drill one dead center, there are usually no problems with speed, but off the facing is another story.
Now on to the advise. DCP you are WAY off base to suggest that the advice you've been given is not the best. Going two or three rails after thinning in the 8 is automatic to better player. Here is a link to a recent article on some choices you had on that 8 :
http://www.azbilliards.com/glennbond/glenn5.cfm
He even missed a few, one that a recent thread on 'letting your stroke out' originated by HAL. Go look at that one too.
Please do not suggest these are not good shots, they are. Your comment that most people would agree with you if they say it in person is absolutely the most defensive comment you've made lately. It was absolute bull, and I'll be amazed if people continue to try to help you. It left me wondering if you know so farging much why the flick are you even asking these questions ?
Go practive these side hanger shots, if you can't master them the quit. I am being totally serious here. If you can't see their value, and don't think you can execute them with confidence, you will never be any good at pool.
Dave
1st - without knowing where the 7 ball is, it is hard to really evaluate your play, but my first thought is "why are you on the wrong side of the 8 to begin with?"DrCue'sProtege said:
2nd - ANY ball that is VERY CLOSE to a pocket requires extra concentration since it is easy to take the shot for granted resulting in something bad happening. Side pocket shots no exception, in fact, they should be treated with respect - just ask any long time player for their side pocket horror stories.
3rd - You will undoubtedly encounter plenty of unexpected results playing pool, but unless there is an obvious equiment problem (table, pocket lining, etc), you can be sure that the real culprit is the player. Often referred to as operator error, sometimes stated as "don't blame the table."
4th - From your original post, it is clear that you didn't hit the ball into the center of the pocket. Any time you play for the facing, there is a possibility of the ball being rejected.
5th - Set it up again, and if can execute it properly, then you know that you simply messed up the first time. Nothing wrong with that, happens to everyone. It's not a mystery of pool, or an alteration of physics. It's human error and can't be eliminated...
-td
3 rails
Well the reason you missed the shot is simple. In order to draw where you wanted, you didn't thin cut the eight. Therefore you sent the eight into the titty and it rattled out. (You might have even done the cardnal sin in draw, and actually poked the hell out of it, which would have amplified the rattle.)
You actually had two very easy choices on the set up for the 9. One you play top center ball and thin cut the eight in the side. This would send you 3 rails and good possition.
The other way would be right english for 3 rails and possition on the 9.
It's all about experience, and most people that have played this game wouldn't have opted for the draw. Just my opinion.
Well the reason you missed the shot is simple. In order to draw where you wanted, you didn't thin cut the eight. Therefore you sent the eight into the titty and it rattled out. (You might have even done the cardnal sin in draw, and actually poked the hell out of it, which would have amplified the rattle.)
You actually had two very easy choices on the set up for the 9. One you play top center ball and thin cut the eight in the side. This would send you 3 rails and good possition.
The other way would be right english for 3 rails and possition on the 9.
It's all about experience, and most people that have played this game wouldn't have opted for the draw. Just my opinion.
txplshrk said:
Hasn't this been proven false. I have read that no amount of english applied to the cueball can effect the way an object ball stays in or out of the pocket.
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I've been having computer problems lately, but I will pm you DCP.
You played the shot correctly imo except I would draw higher and go into the second diamond and off for the nine. You already know your side pockets are screwed up. Gold Crowns are bad enough already so you can't really play on them with that horizontal crease just below the middle of the ball on the pocket facing. You need to get them shimmed and covered correctly and they'll play much better. Until then, just deal with it and be glad you weren't playing a big match.
unknownpro
You played the shot correctly imo except I would draw higher and go into the second diamond and off for the nine. You already know your side pockets are screwed up. Gold Crowns are bad enough already so you can't really play on them with that horizontal crease just below the middle of the ball on the pocket facing. You need to get them shimmed and covered correctly and they'll play much better. Until then, just deal with it and be glad you weren't playing a big match.
unknownpro
Harvywallbanger said:
In the this instance, off the cushion face of the side pocket, yes, "get in english" would "help." But to try to take advantage of this would seem to decrease the margin of error before the object ball would ever get to the face.
Fred
Quote
That isn't what I said, and that isn't what I meant. I was saying if he poked at it which is what a lot of poeple that don't stroke it tend to do, then he would have probably hit it harder than normal. Hitting it harder and poking at it would have amplified the rattle out of the pocket.
I am not saying that it kept the ball from rolling in, cause it was his line up that did that. I am just saying it would have rattled really good because of poking at it really hard.
I never said that the amount of english would keep it in or out of the pocket. So please read before you quote me please.
That isn't what I said, and that isn't what I meant. I was saying if he poked at it which is what a lot of poeple that don't stroke it tend to do, then he would have probably hit it harder than normal. Hitting it harder and poking at it would have amplified the rattle out of the pocket.
I am not saying that it kept the ball from rolling in, cause it was his line up that did that. I am just saying it would have rattled really good because of poking at it really hard.
I never said that the amount of english would keep it in or out of the pocket. So please read before you quote me please.
txplshrk said:
like i said in my original post, i did not hit the shot that hard. i chalked good, made sure i dug into the cue ball so i could get maximum draw for the shot on the '9' Ball. i didnt poke, pound, or hit it too hard. read what i said.
and, folks, i set this shot up several times last night, and am still totally convinced the draw shot is the best way to play this. i mean, this is a simple, simple shot, and still cannot believe the ball rattled on that shot. i have now shot it probably 8-10 times since, and pocketed the ball every time, and got the right about of draw. but for some reason, it just didnt drop the first time.
and i experimented with going downtable or 2-3 rails as some have mentioned. no way would i ever do that on this shot. the draw shot here is the absolute simplest solution.
DCP
Oh Well
I set it up a lot yesterday and I tried it about 20 - 30 times total.
I am sorry you didn't hit it too hard but the reason you missed it was that it hit the titty and rattled out. There is no other explination for it.
The draw shot is an easy shot, but it all depends on how deep in that pocket the 8 was setting. Obviously it wasn't setting deep enough and that is why you hit the titty and rattled it. (this would have happened no matter what speed, or how good your stroke.)
I don't care how you shoot at it with top center, you wouldn't have rattled it more than likely. Unless you hit it dead straight into the titty. (You might not have set up for the nine if you hit it wrong, but you probably wouldn't have missed the eight.)
The thing is without having something calibrated to put the 8 in exactly the same spot everytime and the cue in the same spot everytime then you can't exactly duplicate this shot anyway. All you can do is guess and try to get them close.
When you guess and get them close you are changing the angle of the shot, so yea, you are probably drawing it everytime now.
Point is that isn't the most consistent shot on that leave. You have several people in here telling you to use 2 or 3 rails and thin cut that 8 ball.
If your conviced on using draw then by all means use the draw, but everyone in here is trying to help you, and I guarentee there are people in here with years of experience and they wouldn't draw it.
Also if you ask most people they will say let the cue ball follow it's natural roll in order to set up for the next shot.
Well the natural roll is forward, not backwards. So take that for what it is worth.
Yes there are times you have to draw, but if you don't have to then don't!
I set it up a lot yesterday and I tried it about 20 - 30 times total.
I am sorry you didn't hit it too hard but the reason you missed it was that it hit the titty and rattled out. There is no other explination for it.
The draw shot is an easy shot, but it all depends on how deep in that pocket the 8 was setting. Obviously it wasn't setting deep enough and that is why you hit the titty and rattled it. (this would have happened no matter what speed, or how good your stroke.)
I don't care how you shoot at it with top center, you wouldn't have rattled it more than likely. Unless you hit it dead straight into the titty. (You might not have set up for the nine if you hit it wrong, but you probably wouldn't have missed the eight.)
The thing is without having something calibrated to put the 8 in exactly the same spot everytime and the cue in the same spot everytime then you can't exactly duplicate this shot anyway. All you can do is guess and try to get them close.
When you guess and get them close you are changing the angle of the shot, so yea, you are probably drawing it everytime now.
Point is that isn't the most consistent shot on that leave. You have several people in here telling you to use 2 or 3 rails and thin cut that 8 ball.
If your conviced on using draw then by all means use the draw, but everyone in here is trying to help you, and I guarentee there are people in here with years of experience and they wouldn't draw it.
Also if you ask most people they will say let the cue ball follow it's natural roll in order to set up for the next shot.
Well the natural roll is forward, not backwards. So take that for what it is worth.
Yes there are times you have to draw, but if you don't have to then don't!
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DrCue'sProtege said:
Sometimes, despite appearing to be the simplest objectively, a solution may not be the correct one for a particular player. [This should be read as: "despite appearing easy at the table, if you can't execute it, it ISN'T the simplest shot." Pro players do this all the time - for example, the simplest shot may appear as a table length draw shot for straight in shape, but the "best" solution may actually be a stop shot with a tough follow up cut. It's all about the shooter.
In pool, along with pocketing balls, each player develops their own ability to recognize alternate ways to execute a shot and then to choose the route that gives them the highest percentage of success. Here, you chose what you thought was "the best" shot, but clearly, this was in error. You reiterate that it was "the simplest" and that you would never shoot this shot any other way -> however, your results [missing the ball] indicate to me that your ability to analyze what is the "correct" solution may need improvement.
If you "always" do it this way and get poor results, then perhaps you should re-read a famous quote by Albert Einstein:
"'There is nothing that is more certain a sign of insanity than to do the same thing over and over and expect the results to be different"
-td
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i_maycotte said:
GADawg said:
Exactly on both counts. Drawing the ball is generally still going to be harder to control than the 3 rail shot. The rails are useful, so use them! The 3 rail shot is practically a natural path shot anyway.
And yes, if you have trouble with the 3 rail shot, you need to put in some work. I am no fantastic player by any means, but again, the 3 rail shot is essentially natural, just learn the speed of it. It's not difficult.
3 rails???
tried this last night, just hitting the cue ball naturally, and it skimmed off the long rail, then off the short rail, and back up table - only 2 rails.
have no idea what people are talking about when they say 3 rails???
not sure if you can visualize this on a table from the WEI diagram, but drawing this is the best way for me..................
DCP
tried this last night, just hitting the cue ball naturally, and it skimmed off the long rail, then off the short rail, and back up table - only 2 rails.
have no idea what people are talking about when they say 3 rails???
not sure if you can visualize this on a table from the WEI diagram, but drawing this is the best way for me..................
DCP
DrCue'sProtege said:
At least two posters provided links that have as clear as a pictorial as you can ask for. Help has been provided.
Thin the 8-ball and go three rails around, or
hit fuller with force follow, and go three rail around , or
draw with outside to double the corner, running short of the center of the table to the third rail.
That's the pool lingo for this shot.
And I gave a very plausible answer to why the jarring happens (your original question), but I'm not convinced you've read it now.
Fred
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The 3 rail shot would be long rail next to the side pocket you pocket the 8 in, then the short rail, maybe around the first diamond, or maybe between the first and second, then the opposite long rail past the side pocket, down to what in the WEI diagram would be the bottom side of the 9.
The problem with the draw shot, it all depends on how straight it is, and how good you hit it. The way it lays on your diagram, if you hit it too thin, then you draw back to a tough angle on the 9, and if you hit it too fat, you miss as you say you did. The natural path shot offers more room for error, I think, as long as you understand speed control. And if you don't understand speed control, or at least have some grasp of it, then you've got a long way to go. Speed control is one of the most important parts of pool.
Someone else said it earlier, but you would be wise to be able to use the easier speed control natural shots, rather than have to pull out the stroke shots too often.
Let me add that while I'm not a betting man, but if I was, I'd be willing to bet that if you posted this same WEI diagram to any of the board sections that are to specific pros, I'd bet they'd probably recommend the same 2-3 rails position shot that has been recommended here.
The problem with the draw shot, it all depends on how straight it is, and how good you hit it. The way it lays on your diagram, if you hit it too thin, then you draw back to a tough angle on the 9, and if you hit it too fat, you miss as you say you did. The natural path shot offers more room for error, I think, as long as you understand speed control. And if you don't understand speed control, or at least have some grasp of it, then you've got a long way to go. Speed control is one of the most important parts of pool.
Someone else said it earlier, but you would be wise to be able to use the easier speed control natural shots, rather than have to pull out the stroke shots too often.
Let me add that while I'm not a betting man, but if I was, I'd be willing to bet that if you posted this same WEI diagram to any of the board sections that are to specific pros, I'd bet they'd probably recommend the same 2-3 rails position shot that has been recommended here.
the only natural 3 rail option on this shot is skimming it off the long rail, then down to the short rail, then all the way back up to the opposite short rail. no way does the natural angle bring the other long rail into play - unless you do something to the cue ball!
funny, i am 9 of 10 on this shot hitting it with draw, having missed the only one that counted i suppose. and if you thin the '8' Ball too thinly into the side pocket you could possibly have scratched down in the corner pocket.
DCP
funny, i am 9 of 10 on this shot hitting it with draw, having missed the only one that counted i suppose. and if you thin the '8' Ball too thinly into the side pocket you could possibly have scratched down in the corner pocket.
DCP
DCP,
You aren't allowed to say things like this
"the only natural 3 rail option on this shot is skimming it off the long rail, then down to the short rail, then all the way back up to the opposite short rail. no way does the natural angle bring the other long rail into play - unless you do something to the cue ball!"
With all of your posts on missing every ball on the table, your ability to post on topics saying "no way" on anything is gone.
I would have said "no way" that a human could miss as many balls as you or post as much about it but that was proved wrong........
You aren't allowed to say things like this
"the only natural 3 rail option on this shot is skimming it off the long rail, then down to the short rail, then all the way back up to the opposite short rail. no way does the natural angle bring the other long rail into play - unless you do something to the cue ball!"
With all of your posts on missing every ball on the table, your ability to post on topics saying "no way" on anything is gone.
I would have said "no way" that a human could miss as many balls as you or post as much about it but that was proved wrong........
DrCue'sProtege said:
with respect to the three-rail option: did you even see the threads that have been linked on this? from your diagram, it looks like the 8 needs to be thinned to make this happen. from your description of your results, you're hitting the 8 pretty full (which is a 2-rail solution which i prefer in some situations).
here's my take:
the angles might not be quite right...what's nice about this shot is the margin for error on shape. it's huge. if hit on this path, the CB comes nowhere near a pocket and has a big zone for a shot on the 9. if you can't do this, as others have said, practice til you can.
-s
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