# Hypothetical 8 Ball Question

#### Seaspook

##### Has-Been
Today, when shooting eightball with some friends....

Two solids fell on the break... and two more solids were subsequently potted with fouls ....resulting table now still open..... and only 3 solids left.

We jokingly asked...What would happen if all the solids were cleared and still table open..... could we call and shoot the eight ?

The rule book says that you must clear your group before you shoot the eight.... so i guess “ No”

But since we are chasing rainbows here......
What if all the solids we cleared, table open, opponent claims stripes....can I shoot the eight.???

#### hang-the-9

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think that in this case, you can actually shoot the 8 without making another ball.

I am not even sure this exact thing is in the rule books but do remember there being some posts about it.

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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Silver Member
... But since we are chasing rainbows here......
What if all the solids we cleared, table open, opponent claims stripes....can I shoot the eight.???
I've seen a double rainbow (two concentric rainbows) but never a triple. I wonder if that's possible.

But to answer your question, the WPA rules do not cover this case. The BCAPL rules, which tend to cover more corner cases and have explanations/interpretations of the rules, say:

2. If all balls of either group are pocketed on the break or illegally pocketed before groups are established, either player may legally shoot the 8-ball during their inning. You win the game if you legally pocket the 8-ball on such a shot.

But there is yet another corner case here. Suppose the solids are gone and you call the eight and shoot a stripe-eight combo to pocket the eight. Is that a legal shot? Remember, mixed-group combos are allowed on an open table as long as the eight is not struck first.

#### hurricane145

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But there is yet another corner case here. Suppose the solids are gone and you call the eight and shoot a stripe-eight combo to pocket the eight. Is that a legal shot? Remember, mixed-group combos are allowed on an open table as long as the eight is not struck first.

I go with no. Not a legally pocketed 8 ball. By shooting at the strip ball first you are either implying (whether you want to or not) that you are taking the stripes regardless of calling the 8 ball or not or just plain fouling the 8 ball shot.

If a player breaks and happens to drop ALL the solids and one stripe (at least) and scratches the table is open. Being no fool, I am taking the solids, calling the 8 ball and shooting it in provide there is any decent shot at it.

If there isn't a decent shot at it, I would try carefully to run out the stripes. In that case, the other player should NEVER have anything of an 8 ball shot if I should miss a shot.
I have more to work with than he does!
Chances are he would let the cue ball get too loose trying to get a hit and scratch on the 8 ball anyway.
Might even be easy to set him up for a 3 consecutive foul loss of game!

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#### zencues.com

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But there is yet another corner case here. Suppose the solids are gone and you call the eight and shoot a stripe-eight combo to pocket the eight. Is that a legal shot? Remember, mixed-group combos are allowed on an open table as long as the eight is not struck first.

No... it's a foul at least or loss of game if eight ball is pocketed. You have assumed solids as your group by shooting at (calling) the eight ball. The act of the combo stripe ball-eight ball results in a foul or loss due the fact that you hit your opponents group/ball first.

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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Silver Member
No... it's a foul at least or loss of game if eight ball is pocketed. You have assumed solids as your group by shooting at (calling) the eight ball. The act of the combo stripe ball-eight ball results in a foul or loss due the fact that you hit your opponents group/ball first.
Which rule set are you going by?

#### zencues.com

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Which rule set are you going by?

I don't think any league rules or even rules in general would make it a legal hit.

#### hang-the-9

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I go with no. Not a legally pocketed 8 ball. By shooting at the strip ball first you are either implying (whether you want to or not) that you are taking the stripes regardless of calling the 8 ball or not or just plain fouling the 8 ball shot.

But hitting a ball first is not that you are selecting a group, you are just hitting that ball first. You can play safe as a first shot after the break and hit a ball but not nominate that as your group since you did not pocket a ball yet. And since you have not yet picked a group by pocketing anything, all the balls are legally "open".

#### hurricane145

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't think any league rules or even rules in general would make it a legal hit.

Nether would just using common sense!!

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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Silver Member
Nether would just using common sense!!

The problem is that there lots of rules that people keep having trouble with even though they are "common sense" to others. It's better to go by what is actually written down. Sometimes the written rules do not cover a situation on the table.

You are allowed to hit a "wrong" ball first when playing a combination on an open table. (BCAPL rules). To some it is common sense that this would also apply to the case where all the stripes are gone and the table is still open.

#### zencues.com

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The problem is that there lots of rules that people keep having trouble with even though they are "common sense" to others. It's better to go by what is actually written down. Sometimes the written rules do not cover a situation on the table.

You are allowed to hit a "wrong" ball first when playing a combination on an open table. (BCAPL rules). To some it is common sense that this would also apply to the case where all the stripes are gone and the table is still open.

Bob, are you saying that the shot is legal?

#### Bob Jewett

##### AZB Osmium Member
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Bob, are you saying that the shot is legal?
No, I'm saying that I don't think the rules (any written rule set I know of) are clear in this particular case. It doesn't much matter because it is a situation that has probably never come up. If it has come up, I imagine the players involved didn't play very well and had no actual rule set in mind.

#### hurricane145

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I imagine the players involved didn't play very well and had no actual rule set in mind.
And there is the problem. They will learn through the school of hard knocks with any luck if they are all that interested in playing well and knowing what is going on. Just paying their dues like the rest of us did early on.
Of course some will play pool for their whole lives only casually and will always be hackers. Never get any better or learn much of anything about playing pool. Oh well...

#### tatcat2000

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But there is yet another corner case here. Suppose the solids are gone and you call the eight and shoot a stripe-eight combo to pocket the eight. Is that a legal shot? Remember, mixed-group combos are allowed on an open table as long as the eight is not struck first.

I can say for certain that our intent was that it would not be legal in CSI play. It was simply not a case we considered when writing. The 8-Ball Crazy Scenario Train stopped one station short of that situation.

*** EDIT *** Sorry, brain was out to lunch on the reasoning previously written...correct explanation for Bob's proposed shot being illegal in CSI play now appears below.

However, the intent when CSI 2-6-2 was written was that a player shooting the 8-ball on an open table was, in effect, claiming the missing group. As such if a ball of the other group were contacted first then the shot would be illegal under 2-7 for wrong group contacted first.

Yes, one could try to argue, with the specific existing writing, that the table is open when the proposed shot is initiated and that the group is not claimed until the end of the shot when the 8-ball is pocketed. However, that argument does not really hold up when considered in the light of CSI 2-9-1, which states that the 8-ball is legal only after a group is gone. You also are required to couple that with the thought that if you want the shot to be legal then you want both the 8-ball AND a ball of a group still on the table to BOTH be legal balls in a single shot, which goes against every established and accepted current practice in any organization.

Anyway, this is a discovered weakness in the writing process. Again, I assure you the intent when written is that the shot would not be legal.

Buddy

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#### Swighey

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The WPA rules for 8 ball state clearly that groups are decided only after a player makes a legal called shot. So sticking rigidly to the rules, the incoming player would have to call stripes. When the groups are decided the opposing player is on the 8. Or is he.....Or can the groups be decided after the 8 is potted legally? All very confusing. A highly unlikely situation but a hole in the rules.

#### Swighey

##### AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Actually having thought about this again (and there might still be holes in my thinking, so please challenge it if you see fit):

The rules state that the groups are only chosen after a legal called shot is made. Also, “The eight ball may be called only after the shot on which the shooter’s group has been cleared”

So the order is:
1, a legal shot must be made
2, groups are decided
3, the eight can be made

So, in the unusual and unlikely situation where the table is still open with only one group on the table:

The incoming player can play safe or call a stripe. Essentially, you have a choice. Either try to run the table or play a weak safety that forces your opponent to consider doing the same.

According to the letter of the rules I think that’s correct.