Hypothetical BCA situation

M

Myrtle_04

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Me and a few buddies were playing 8-ball and I shared a story about how "I broke too good". I was playing in a little $5 tourney, broke, Left all the stripes within half a diamond of a pocket and an easy 8-ball, and scratched.

The question that came up was that because BCA rules are open after the break, what would happen if I made all the stripes or all the solids on the break. Granted I doubt this will ever happen, but we were stumped.

Would you take the 8 ball for the win or have to run the rest of the balls?

If you just have to take the 8 ball and you happen to miss or foul, would your opponent get the chance at the eight or would he have to run all the balls?

Like I said.......hypothetical, but worth asking.
 
And if rule is you cant take the 8 first what would happen if you broke and sank all the solids and strips leaving only the 8 on the table?
 
a little common sense...

Myrtle_04 said:
Anything is worth asking.
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What if you break and make ALL the balls?

What if a herd of stampeding elephants crashes into the hall and one of them poops on the table you are playing a match on. It covers the cue ball. Its YOUR shot. What do you do?
 
Shortside K said:
What if you break and make ALL the balls?

What if a herd of stampeding elephants crashes into the hall and one of them poops on the table you are playing a match on. It covers the cue ball. Its YOUR shot. What do you do?
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Give up ball in hand without shooting......

I think in BCA that the table must be declared after the break. So if you made all the stripes, you have to take solids.
 
Myrtle_04 said:
Me and a few buddies were playing 8-ball and I shared a story about how "I broke too good". I was playing in a little $5 tourney, broke, Left all the stripes within half a diamond of a pocket and an easy 8-ball, and scratched.

The question that came up was that because BCA rules are open after the break, what would happen if I made all the stripes or all the solids on the break. Granted I doubt this will ever happen, but we were stumped.

Would you take the 8 ball for the win or have to run the rest of the balls?

If you just have to take the 8 ball and you happen to miss or foul, would your opponent get the chance at the eight or would he have to run all the balls?

Like I said.......hypothetical, but worth asking.
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The current rules IMO is explicit. So, unless they change the rules in the future, there's no need for a "what if" situation.

3.4 Open Table / Choosing Groups
Before groups are determined, the table is said to be ?open,? and before each shot, the shooter must call his intended ball. If the shooter legally pockets his called ball, the corresponding group becomes his, and his opponent is assigned the other group. If he fails to legally pocket his called ball, the table remains open and play passes to the other player. When the table is open, any object ball may be struck first except the eight ball.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Again, there is no "if every ball of a suit is knocked in off the break, then ...."

Until there's a rule in place, the rule says that on an open table, you can't strike the 8-ball first. If this hypothetical situation ever happens, the answer is already there. Work the game based on that rule.

On the hypothetical situation where all the balls are made on the break except the 8-ball, the stalemate rule is going to apply, and rightfully so until the rules committee decides to waste their time adding a special "what if" section that may never happen in our colletive lives.

Fred
 
If it happens at a tourney, chances are, one player will not agree with the other. If a ref is called, he'll make a ruling, one party will disagree with the call. He/she will then call for the head ref, they will make the final call. Then one person will not agree with the call. Next year, a clause {might } be inserted into the new rule book to cover the situation.
My opinion, after reading the rule posted here, you would have to pocket the remaining balls to establish your group.
 
While the rules suggest that you could not shoot the 8-ball in this situation, IMO, the authors probably hadn't considered this hypothetical situation when they wrote the rules.

If I happened to be the ref or TD, my judgment is telling me to say the guy can directly shoot the 8-ball. If he happens to miss, it's still open, and his opponent can shoot the 8-ball. Same thing if all 14 solids and stripes had been made on the break; first to shoot the 8-ball in wins.

My reasoning is that I believe when the rule authors wrote rule 3.4, they assumed at least one solid and at least one stripe would be left on the table after the break. So I don't believe the rule, as written, is intended to cover this situation. The ref, IMO, is left to use his discretion to handle it.

If the BCA decides to address this situation specifically in the rules, I'd be pretty surprised if their decision would be to "punish" a breaker for sinking an entire suit on the break.
 
Aha, I found that in the BCA Pool League rules, the situation is addressed. You can just shoot in the 8-ball.

2.6 Establishing Groups

1. Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent is assigned the other group.

2. If all of either group of balls are pocketed on the break or illegally pocketed before the groups are established, either player may legally shoot the 8-ball during their inning. If the 8-ball is legally pocketed on such a shot, the game is won.

3. Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by the player(s) or a referee that the players are shooting the wrong groups for any reason and a foul was not called in a timely manner, the game will be replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again.​
 
Cuebacca said:
Aha, I found that in the BCA Pool League rules, the situation is addressed. You can just shoot in the 8-ball.

2.6 Establishing Groups

1. Groups are established when the first object ball is legally pocketed on a shot after the break. The player legally pocketing the first ball is assigned that group, and the opponent is assigned the other group.

2. If all of either group of balls are pocketed on the break or illegally pocketed before the groups are established, either player may legally shoot the 8-ball during their inning. If the 8-ball is legally pocketed on such a shot, the game is won.

3. Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by the player(s) or a referee that the players are shooting the wrong groups for any reason and a foul was not called in a timely manner, the game will be replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again.​
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This is a case where the BCA Pool Leagues have explicitly addressed two of those recurring questions that should have been addressed explicity by the BCA and the World Standardized Rules long ago.

I'd love to see World Standardized adopt both 2 and 3 and be done with it.

Fred <~~~ either way, as long as the rules cover it.
 
Official BCAPL Response

Although there is no such thing as "BCA Rules", this response is being posted in order to ensure that there is no confusion regarding BCAPL rules.

The situation is covered by BCAPL Rule 2.6.2.

If all of one group are pocketed on the break or (a more likely scenario) illegally pocketed before groups are established, the 8-ball becomes a legal object ball for either player as long as the table remains open. If the 8-ball is legally pocketed under those circumstances, the game is won.

The basis of the decision was a simple extension of the natural progression of the game. Suppose four balls of one group were pocketed on the break. While certainly not guaranteed, it is not unreasonable to further suppose that there is a possibility of a relatively easy four-ball out. Likewise for pocketing five balls - an easy three-ball out, etc. Considering that progression, no acceptable rationale could be found for not allowing a player to shoot at the 8-ball if the seventh ball of the group is gone.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Senior Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
:)

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.4.3 and 9.4.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.


-----------------------------

And thanks, Fred and others - I was composing while you posted. Too fast for me! :smile:
 
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Great Find

Cuebacca said:
Aha, I found that in the BCA Pool League rules, the situation is addressed. You can just shoot in the 8-ball.

2.6 Establishing Groups

2. If all of either group of balls are pocketed on the break or illegally pocketed before the groups are established, either player may legally shoot the 8-ball during their inning. If the 8-ball is legally pocketed on such a shot, the game is won.

​
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That's how the current (08-09) BCAPL player handbook reads... rep to you!
 
I am really proud of the job that Buddy Eick, Kenny Shuman, and Bill Stock did on the BCAPL rule book.

They studied all of the situations that have occurred over the years and made rules that address these situations.

I realize the world standardized rules are in use in a lot of places - but there are several areas that were not addressed. I feel the BCPL rules are the most complete rules ever assembled.

Mark Griffin, CEO
BCAPL
 
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