I can't get out!! (sorry so long)

8

8BallJunkie

Registered
Hello everyone. I have been lurking around for a bit and feel the need to ask some questions.

First off some history. I am 25 and have only been playing pool since I turned 21 and could play league and in bar tourneys. So I don't have a great deal of history. Anyway I am a "fairly strong" APA SL5 (8 and 9 ball) and feel like I play at a decent speed. I play in the weekly 8 ball tournament and can hold my own but.......

Here is my problem.......I can't finish a rack.....with the biggest problem being breaking balls out. How do you work on breaking out problem balls?? and when to do it during a rack??

My general game against an APA 4,5 or 6 is break, run to a certain point and begin to play defense. Obviously this does not work out against all 6's. But if I can get the table open I am fine. I generally go to the bar two other nights a week and shoot balls mostly like this.....I throw out the solids and run them out, then throw out the stripes w/8ball and run them out taking ball in hand to start. After I get in a groove I will throw out all of the balls, pick a set, take ball in hand and go with all balls on the table. Generally what happens is I run down until I have my normal problems and play a defensive shot on myself. I can then generally take ball in hand and run out the other balls with a more open table.
Again what "should" I be doing? and How can I work on breaking balls out and running tables in competition?
Sorry this is long and thanks for any help.
 
Well, for starters, 8-ball is one of those games where you need to closely examine the situation before making a move (something I need to remind myself from time to time). It's not like the pool you see on tv (like 9-ball) where they just get to break, make a ball and proceed to run-out. 8-ball, especially on a barbox, is a game of exchange. Rarely are you given run-out opportunities.

However, I will frequently take a stab at running out a table with problems by trying to address those problems as early as possible. If you really can't, you really shouldn't even try. The last thing you want to do is make all your open shots and leave yourself two clusters and the 8-ball. To be a great 8-ball player, you have to have a mature game, not a run-out game.

In competition, I once had 3 break-and-runs and 2 8s on the break (all in 1 inning) so you can imagine what goes through my mind when, after the break, I see a problem so I elect to play safe.
 
Thanks for the comments

I guess basically if you can take care of a problem early in a rack then go for it and possibly have a chance to get out....otherwise play the percentages and "chess match" for an opportunity to win the rack later.

Maybe that is all I needed to hear. I love the mental part of the game but I suppose you get caught up in the "running racks" deal. When you just have to be the one that makes the 8.

Thanks
 
Jude knows what he is talking about. However, I want to add that with a barbox you really have to brutalize the balls sometimes. Many layouts can be made runnable if you stop trying to finesse the table. I support you in your effort to win games through safety battles and finesse, that is a skill that is good to have. But I encourage you to also learn how to beat the table into submission. If you are confident and determined and tell the balls exactly what to do, you will be surprised at the results.

I recently have won some 9-ball matches by sheer determination. I hated hated hated the idea of losing to my opponent, so I just refused to miss and refused to give up the table. I was on big tables, but that is the attitude you need to develop... you need to play the odds and take the shot with the highest probability of advancing you to a win, but you should learn to be strong and fierce and refuse your opponent another turn at the table.

Here are some other tips to make "tied-up" balls easier: 1. Make sure you are playing position for all pockets. Sometimes some odd angles into the side pockets or long shots to an opposite corner will get you out. 2. A ball that is bankable is not a "tied-up" ball... it is just your responsibility to get into position to be able to shoot a nice bank on that ball... don't be afraid to bank to win. 3. Practice pinpoint control of your cueball so that you can break balls out. Watch where you are impacting a cluster, because you can certainly predict the layout of the balls after a breakout. 4. Practice carom shots. Caroms are easy on a bartable because the table is small and the pockets are large. Pocketing one of your balls off of a ball that is in a cluster is a great way to get a breakout. 5. Think positively and act with 100% confidence at the table... soon you will find that you are confident. 6. Refuse to lose. Refuse to miss. And enjoy the challenge of figuring out a way to beat the balls into submission or get shortside (or oddball) position so that you can shoot your balls in. 7. Find a good practice partner (and I mean good - better than you), beat eachothers brains out on the table and talk about it as you go. Watch what he does to get out. See what works and what doesn't. Then remember that and put it to use.
 
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one thing i can suggest is to learn cue ball defection lines also know as tangent lines. theres a difference in guessing where the cue ball will be traveling and knowing where its going. this will especially help in "ball in hand" situations if you if have balls tied up. you can then pocket and carom off your object ball to break out tied up balls
 
lspyderll said:
one thing i can suggest is to learn cue ball defection lines also know as tangent lines. theres a difference in guessing where the cue ball will be traveling and knowing where its going. this will especially help in "ball in hand" situations if you if have balls tied up. you can then pocket and carom off your object ball to break out tied up balls
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Yes but moreso, there are lots of things you'll want to consider before you break out a cluster. Will you definitely get a shot afterward and will your break-out be effective? If so, obviously proceed. If there is a chance you may not get a shot or effectively break out the ball, how much of an advantage might your opponent attain from this outcome? Will it be no better than before, worse than before or better? Might there be an immediate negative outcome if you choose to leave the cluster alone?
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Yes but moreso, there are lots of things you'll want to consider before you break out a cluster. Will you definitely get a shot afterward and will your break-out be effective? If so, obviously proceed. If there is a chance you may not get a shot or effectively break out the ball, how much of an advantage might your opponent attain from this outcome? Will it be no better than before, worse than before or better? Might there be an immediate negative outcome if you choose to leave the cluster alone?
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i agree with you 100% on this, there are many things to consider before breaking balls out. I was mearly giving a suggestion on what to try to learn to help break out balls.

You could also consider things like, is my oppenent capable of running out if break them out or am i shooting good tonight or depending on the situation either you do it or he does it and either way its not in my favor. it could also be a ball speed and position play need to be addressed. without knowing some of these unknowns its hard to tell someone how to complete a rack.

it could also be that he could learn to play his opponent instead of playing the balls.

maybe hes trying to run out too soon.

lots and lots of things that could be addressed here.

you could watch high level players and see what they do. When the get in a similar situation watch what they do, is it the same as you were thinking? if not then analize it to figure out why they did what they did wether it was good or bad.
 
Learn where the cue ball will go after a shot.

Learn the 30 and 90 degree rules. Dr. Dave's DVD teaches this stuff... http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/cd_dvd/dvd_description.html

Then look at your balls. Is there a ball near a problem ball where the tangent (90 degrees to pocket) lines up? Or is the problem ball 30 degrees from some ball when pocketing that ball into a certain pocket? With these situations, you can shoot a ball into a pocket and use follow (30 degrees) to break out the trouble ball or use stun (90 degrees tangent) to break out the trouble ball.

Or can you shoot in a certain ball with draw and get the cue ball to come back off that shot to break out a trouble ball?

The above are "natural" situations you can take advantage of to break out a trouble ball.

Sometimes you are just in a good situation where you can pocket your ball and use follow and this will break out the ball. Or maybe stun will send the cue ball 90 degrees to the left breaking out the ball after your shot. Dr. Dave's DVD teaches you where the cue ball will go after a shot depending on how you hit the cue ball.

You can choose to shoot a shot in a certain way to get the cue ball to go in a certain direction.

*More difficult* is to see that if a certain ball is hit from a certain direction with stun or follow or draw, then you will be able to also break out the trouble ball. THEN the hard part, shoot a prior shot or a series of prior shots to that shot and get the cue ball to stop in that location so you can then break out that ball with the desired shot. Getting the cue ball to go to that spot is not always easy. Sometimes you can shoot a stop shot on a prior ball and leave the cue ball right where you need it for the shot. Other times you can try and try again and can't seem to get the cue ball to stop where you need it.

Sometimes you can shoot a safety and leave an object ball in just the right place to later break out another ball.

Or early in the game, if you don't have a shot, you can shoot at a trouble ball and move it to a better location. If you're not going to be able to pocket a ball, might as well use your shot to break out a ball or move a ball closer to a pocket.

Sometimes if you don't have a shot and have two or three trouble balls, you can shoot one of your trouble balls into another trouble ball and break them both out. Again, you did not have a shot, so might as well use the opportunity to break your balls out. I do this early on in the game as it leaves my balls hopefully blocking some of my opponent's shots.

Breaking out balls is very difficult. But sometimes things are lined up such that the 30/90 degree rules will do the trick!
 
Have a very definite pattern in mind when you attack the table. Start from the 8 and work backwards. Save the balls near the side pockets for breakouts or positions for breakouts.

Keep in mind that you can go off 1 or more rails to get breakouts or position, it doesn't have to be from direct contact after contact with the object ball. If you are left with nothing, try thinking of setting up a ball for a breakout while playing safe.

Also bear in mind that it may be to your advantage to let them break it out if you have pockets blocked. I don't advocate it if they are strong shooters, though, because they will probably find a way around that.

One drill I like to do which will teach you tangent lines with follow, draw and stun, is to make every ball, in any order, OFF the cueball. This is also an invaluable drill for 9 ball, when you need to make a ball that's hanging in the jaws.

It will show you how precisely the object ball (in this case, the cueball) needs to be hit in order to follow the right line and how english and how high or low you hit it affects the path.

Be creative. Pretty soon, you will be caroming 2 and 3 rails with english to pocket balls. ;)

Of course, you will need to take into account the heavier weight of a big or weighted cueball, if that is what you use on a bar box.
 
1)Play straight pool.

2)When you practice, don't just throw balls out and run solids (or stripes) with ball in hand.

3)Develop a good pre-shot routine for examining the layout of the table, and set up for shape on breaking apart clusters. Practice breaking out clusters by caroming into them, drawing/following into them, going one or more rails, etc. Also, when you go for a breakout, make sure you leave an insurance ball or two, because you will never be guaranteed a shot after an attempted breakout.

4)When you examine the layout of the table, pick a key ball which will be made last to give you shape on the 8. You can work backwards from this ball to determine what shape is needed to break apart certain balls that will give you trouble.

5)And finally, but probably most important, don't get all of your easy balls off the table and leave just one or two tied up somewhere. That is the worst thing you can do to anyone remotely decent at 8-ball. I love when someone runs six, and misses shape on his last ball. All my obstacles are out of the way, and I will run out 90% of the time.

P.S. Play straight pool.
 
You may also benefit from someone showing you some 14.1 patters.

My 14.1 game sucks, but the fact that I've been playing with SJM has helped me with breaking up balls while playing for position.

The other night I was playing with a fellow AzB poster, and managed to run a few 5s and 6s playing one-pocket on a TIGHT table (<4") because of the basic break-up patterns/rules I've been exposed to with SJM and 14.1
 
I first want to say I agree with what the other posters have said before me. But I would like to add my $.02.

After the break look at the layout. You can catagorize all the balls in the following way:

A Type balls) These are balls that have one or more pockets available to them and present no problem.

B Type balls) These are balls that require specific position to bank, carom, combo, or even possibly a ball that has a very tight small zone position area.

C Type balls) These are balls that have no pocket and cannot be made unless broken out.

As you look at both solids and stripes you automatically make the decision on what you want to take just from experience. When you break a rack down very analitically you might see some details you just might have been missing from before. Generally I would really think hard about trying to run out a rack of solids if it contained two "C" balls.

Keep track of failed run outs you thought you could run out. Example: That rack had 5A's, 2B's, and 1C ball (I included the eight as it should be.)

I will admit that on most racks I don't do this because the choice is obvious. But when I'm not sure I will use this quickly.

P.S. Label the balls to suit your game. If you can't bank to save your life and you want to make it a "C" type ball go ahead... or practice more banks! :D
 
renard said:
I first want to say I agree with what the other posters have said before me. But I would like to add my $.02.

After the break look at the layout. You can categorize all the balls in the following way:

A Type balls) These are balls that have one or more pockets available to them and present no problem.

B Type balls) These are balls that require specific position to bank, carom, combo, or even possibly a ball that has a very tight small zone position area.

C Type balls) These are balls that have no pocket and cannot be made unless broken out.

As you look at both solids and stripes you automatically make the decision on what you want to take just from experience. When you break a rack down very analytically you might see some details you just might have been missing from before. Generally I would really think hard about trying to run out a rack of solids if it contained two "C" balls.

Keep track of failed run outs you thought you could run out. Example: That rack had 5A's, 2B's, and 1C ball (I included the eight as it should be.)

I will admit that on most racks I don't do this because the choice is obvious. But when I'm not sure I will use this quickly.

P.S. Label the balls to suit your game. If you can't bank to save your life and you want to make it a "C" type ball go ahead... or practice more banks! :D
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Type B should also include balls that will become available once Type-A balls have been pocketed. Sometimes problems solve themselves, that's all.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Type B should also include balls that will become available once Type-A balls have been pocketed. Sometimes problems solve themselves, that's all.
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You are correct Jude, in my haste I left that one out! :p
 
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