I got a QUESTION.....Aiming the natural way

[JB Cases]

Because it is a training device to help you learn where to put the CB. Once you get the feel for things, you don't need it anymore or only when you are having trouble with a certain shot. It the best training device for beginning players and for those having trouble with certain shots.

You need to read better. That drawing shows that no matter where the CB is on the table, the spot on the table that represents the GB contact patch is always the same. It shows two circles that represents possible CB locations on the table.

Those lines are direction of travel lines that represents the path the CB takes when hit.

There was also a write up that went with it that explained all this but I guess you didn't see that one. Go find them if want to. The orginal thread was title My GB Journey.

As stated, if you do something long enough, it becomes natural, second nature, a reaction that requires no thought. Those that still use any form of a system are stuck. Shot making is not natural to them because they have not spent enough time at the table for shot making to become natural.

As example, I practice 2-3 hours every other day, with at least one 6-7 hour session once a month. I might take weekends off once in awhile. This is on 9ft table with tight pockets. Now when I practice, I mean throwing the 15 balls out there and going to town. Thats 2-3hours at the table hitting balls. Thats 2-3 hours straight, non stop, seldom sitting down for breaks and on so. I've been doing this practice schedule now for 2 years. This is how the pros got to be pros.

Anyone else this committed to practice? I doubt it becuase there have been way to many statements like "since I can't practice enough I use xxx system" or "using xxx system you don't to spend so much time hitting balls".

These types of statements show nothing more than how limited a view these people have about running balls.

This forum is really a small part of the pool world. Where I play, none know of this site or even heard of CTE .

I learned by hitting balls. I picked up a stick, put the balls on the table and had at it. I played for three years before I ever found out about Mosconis book or even knew they were books on play out there. This was way back in the later 60's, early 70's when the internet was not around. That right kiddies, there was a time before the internet. It also was a very small town where the tables were in the rec center. There were no pool halls there and still aren't any today. Needless to say, but I will any way, reading Mosconis book only confirmed what I had learn already.

And who really cares about a video of you making shots or anyone for that matter. Anyone that posts this kinda stuff is just trying to show off, be a big man, "See look at what I can do" when most are thinking yeah well so what I can do that too and even better shots.

FWIW

If you need a "training device" to help you learn where to hit the cue ball then you aren't doing it naturally. You aren't feeling it you are measuring it using a preset device to train you to see the distance.

Nice try on your snide remark about me video taping myself. I made a video of myself playing so I could test my camera setup. I really have to wonder about people who try so hard to put others down by acting like amateur psychologists. You just had to gloss over the POINT I was making which is that my playing looks "natural" even though I am using a system to aim.

As to the idea that a system can't help a person avoid practice you are dead wrong.

I guarantee you I don't have to play 2-3 hours a day to be in top form. Not anywhere close. I am not trying to be a pro either but I am sure you don't have to like it if we match up. I say that based on what I know of my own game and my own ability to put 2-3 packs together at any time if I am in stroke.

I know FOR SURE with a million percent certainty that using CTE allows me to make shots that I have NEVER EVER NOT ONCE in my life practiced before. Shots that I normally wouldn't even think to attempt because I never shot them before. If that's not a "shortcut" then I don't know what is.

Now you can discount the "system" and call me delusional or whatever. But my stats are that I have run 98 in straight pool, more 8 and outs than I can count, 5 racks of 9 ball, 5 racks of 8 ball, 2 racks of rotation, and 15 banks in a row. I think I am cognizant enough of my own ability to know when I am making shots using a certain method that are technically "over my head".

The only time in my life that I ever played on the natural - that is with no instruction was from 12-14. That's when I played at Johnny's gameroom in OKC and no one taught me anything. I won games from the Mexicans for $1 a game and ususally went home with $20 in winnings.

Until the day the Indian kid showed up and beat me out of the grocery money Mom had given me. Found out he played at a place called Trueloves Pool Room. It was a bit before I got to Trueloves but before that I rode my bike to a Korean pool room and discovered 9ft pool tables and 10 foot carom tables. That's where I first saw real players. The indian kid was a real player too but I didn't know it when he was beating me. The big tables looked like football fields.

So that's when I started actually learning how to PLAY not just bang the balls around.

And that was before the internet as well. So don't patronize me with your "experience". I am sure that mine equals or exceeds yours when it comes to who has been around.

 

[JB Cases]

I agree with this. However, I do think players are better off when they "think" they are playing by feel. Really all this means is they are not doing a lot of thinking at the table. They have learned their system and are now using their instincts. I have recently learned to quiet my thoughts while at the table and I think I am really playing better. I'm definitely one of those guys that can over-analyze things.

It sounds like you have reached this level of comfort with CTE, were you do not constantly have to walk yourself through the process of aiming. That was one of my apprehensions about CTE. I don't want to have to constantly be talking to myself while lining up the shot. I already have enough noise in my head I have to deal with. It sounds like this apprehension of mine was off base.

Absolutely. The only time when I am super conscious of doing the steps is when I am facing a shot I have never shot before. Some weird off-angle back cut that looks like something Efren woudn't consider. Then I do the steps consciously because I look it as a true test of whether the system works or not.

Otherwise I get into a quick rhythm and play fairly fast and just about one-two stroke every shot. Rarely will a take 4-5 practice strokes. Just lay the cue down and shoot. Actually it's lay down, pivot, shoot but it happens so quick you don't really see it.

And if you start a session consciously thinking about the steps by the time you are four five games in you aren't thinking about them any more and everything flows.

 

[JB Cases]

Take what is useful and develop from there-Bruce Lee-Tao of Jeet Kune Do -

I guarantee you Bruce Lee would tell you to stop trying to discredit CTE and instead see what you can learn from it.

He was someone who would take what he wanted from all styles and use what worked leave what he didn't want.

So if you are going to quote Bruce Lee then try to follow his teaching.

 

[bulletjr]

Well,

I appreciate everyones input and it's nice to see some of you can relate to what I am saying. Keep in mind, some of ya'll missed the fact that I don't pick any point on any ball or use a ghost ball. I believe the quote about my body just knowing where the pocket is without looking is similar. I tried to bank one time with Ray Martin's advice on lining up the shot with the angles. Didn't last long and went back to feeling where I was at in reference to the balls on the table. I hope that Buddy finishes his book soon because he has a lot of good things to say about the bad things people try to do in pool. Opinion's are many abroad, but I just wanted to see if anyone could relate to my way of moving around the table. I want to say that if there is one man that know's what your thinking inside your head when you play pool, it is the "bullet". Everyone could benefit from some time with him.

I think that I would like to try learning what CTE teaches so that I can compare to what I do now... An older gentlemen that had a daughter play pro told me that some number one players actually had a person help them with just mental thinking at the time they were number one. I can believe this because everyone has some thoughts get in the way.

I will say two things:

- Sometimes saying nothing at all will hurt more than anything else and lead to conviction in the heart.

- Learning Pool by feeling your way around the table is Fun.

Thank all of you for your input.

Andrew.......

 

[Underclocked]

When I played Buddy some 35+ years ago, we spent most of our time discussing aiming systems.

 

[JB Cases]

Learning by Feel

Learning by feel (experience) is great if you have the right environment.

Can anyone point to a great player who came from no where? I mean someone who never had a lesson, wasn't exposed to great players, had no experience with them?

I'd love to see any example of that where someone took up pool in their basement and had nothing but a stick, balls, table and themselves.

Grady Matthews said in his book that he hung around Cochrans and watched all the great players to learn from.

Buddy Hall matched up relentlessly and went on the road very young.

Sure there are players who just learned by doing. A lot of them however also figured certain things out that worked for them as sort of systematic approaches to certain shots.

Here in China they have a LOT of roadside pool tables and open-air pool rooms where the tables are made with wood beds, the corners are rounded like Snooker tables but the size is 8ft. Some of these open-air pool rooms are 50 tables but most are around 3-10 tables.

I am SURE that somewhere on those tables are players who work 12 hours a day doing some shit job but when they get to the tables they are the "best" around and they actually handle the cue pretty well. There has to be players out there on these tables who have never been exposed to "formal" pool on good equipment, never seen a book, dvd, or even pool on tv, who play great. Players who don't know the ghost ball concept or any concept other then lay the cue down and shoot.

So I agree that it's possible to develop into a decent player with ZERO help. I have to ask myself though, if you took someone who has that talent and honed it through proper application of technique and experience where would they be?

Mozart wrote his first world class composition when he was just 21 years old. A natural prodigy right?

No. His father was a composer and world class music instructor who had been training young Wolfgang since he was 4. So by the time Mozart became a world class composer in his own right he had been at it for 17 years.

I totally understand when someone says that they don't pick out contact points or see lines. Compare it to running through a crowd. You don't think about vectors and lines and mass while doing this. You just start moving and avoiding others and obstacles instinctively. This is a "skill" you developed simply by the virtue of being alive and healthy otherwise you would have died some tragic death by miscalculating your position relative to things that can kill you.

So pool by comparison is really benign. The balls aren't moving and most of the time you have more than enough time to study their placement and how you want to position you body to make them move. This is however not an advantage in sports. Because in other sports you are forced to react in milliseconds constantly. You don't have time to think about all the things you could do wrong, you just act and let your developed skill take over.

So why then do players miss balls?

Either they are lined up wrong or they throw the cue ball/object ball off line due to technique.

Technique is a fairly easy fix - practice that stroke until you can put that tip where you want it every time without fail at the proper speed for the shot. Do it until your arm falls off.

Lining up is not an easy fix. Because everyone perceives the balls differently. This has to do with vision, brain chemistry and body types. So basically a person can think that they are lined up perfectly but not be. And if they are close then they will teach themselves to compensate by giving the cueball just the right amount of throw to make the shot. This is the natural evolutionary reaction to starting out with the wrong line but figuring out how to accomplish the goal.

The problem here is that when that same person then gets another shot that is almost the same but maybe 5 degrees different then perhaps they don't know how to compensate for it, their internal computer hasn't been programmed for it and so the hesitation comes out.

That's the reason many of us like to play with systems. We don't have the experience of playing a million balls in ten thousand situations. We would like to try and find something that helps us to maximize our playing and practice time.

Anyway, I still maintain that whether a person uses an aiming system or not, when they get in stroke then it's all "natural".

 

[ceebee]

I like to aim at the ball & just shoot at it. If I start worrying about sinking a ball in a pocket, the game gets very frustrating.

Then, it's no fun...

 

[Mr. Wiggles]

Instinctive aiming

I have not even finished reading all the posts about the natural, non thinking, instinctive or however it is labeled form of aiming, but I totally agree. It's strange because I was just explaining this to a friend who is way too analytical in his shooting. Not just aiming but stroke, thinking(think long think wrong), momentum, the whole package. To prove my point I had him do a drill I always use when practicing. It's much like speed pool except for the running. Step up, stroke a few times,aim and let her rip. You must get ON quickly. Your body and mind will take over. He was amazed how accurate he could be with so little preparation and effort! We have a player on our team who is way too analytical, measuring, laying stick on table, looking six times, remeasuring, drama, drama. We have to hold our giggles when he finally misses by 12 inches!!. Not to mention how foolish he looks after all the drama. Not to say I don't read and watch videos to learn but when I play I try to drop into my instinctive type of play. Now I'm going to read the rest of the post and look for some secrets I might have overlooked.

 

[duckie]

Take what is useful and develop from there-Bruce Lee-Tao of Jeet Kune Do -

I guarantee you Bruce Lee would tell you to stop trying to discredit CTE and instead see what you can learn from it.

He was someone who would take what he wanted from all styles and use what worked leave what he didn't want.

So if you are going to quote Bruce Lee then try to follow his teaching.

Well, since you brought it up, I'll just start with the quote above.

There is nothing useful about CTE to learn from so there is nothing to develop from.

I've always stated that CTE is too limited and too hard to learn to be useful in the long run.

And I'll just end with this quote from the Tao of Jeet Kune DO:

"The knowledge and skill you have achieved are meant to be "forgotten" so you can float comfortably in emptiness, without obstruction. Learning is important but do not become it's slave. Above all, do not harbor anything external and superfluous-the mind is primary. Any techique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obessed with it."

Oh, statements like "I guarantee you Bruce Lee would tell you to stop trying to discredit CTE and instead see what you can learn from it" is pure bullshit.

 

[Gerry]

as of the last 2 years I now have 2 ways I play. First way.... is "feel"....I get my chin on the cue, full fingers grip, snooker like, and I get down on the shot basically drawing an imaginary line from the pocket center, thru the OB, to the CB. This way has gotten me to the point where I knew to get to the next level I would need help.......because there were shots I had issues with.

second way I shoot is using basically Hal's system of segmenting the OB with either side of the CB. This system opened up my VERY stubborn view of aiming systems and my non-belief in them. After a few months or REALLY giving them a go, I got how they worked, and realized they filled a hole in my game.

Now,....I use both, and those shots that did not work for one are filled with the other. On any given day I get a feel of what is more comfortable, and go with it. I think the beauty is being able to go back n forth between feel AND system and realize ther is no one way, but to use both gives me double confidence....which we all know is the key.....right?


G.