In pool, how good is...well, good?

shoutout33

shoutout33

"The Emperor"
Silver Member
Let me explain my title question. I've been doing a lot of reading on AZ's and one-pocket's websites. I've been reading about all of those cat's who back in the day gave you hell on the tables. I've also been reading about who's out their now and how good a lot of the pros are etc.

Now this may sound really, really silly...maybe even kind of stupid, but is pocket billards skill all based around how many balls you pocket? I mean seriously think about. When you hear about John Doe pool player from across town being good or really good or whatever and he meets up Doe John from the next town, is it just based on who pocket the most balls?

I know that it depends on the game, but I feel I know some really good pool players and they'll tell you, "Yeah, I'm good, but not THAT good!". And I'm thinking, dude your the best in our league or in this bar, why can't you compete again guys on the tour or at the US Aamateurs or wherever? You pocket balls as good as anyone else.

Also, people talk about the up and coming talent in pool here in the US and internationally, saying these kids are already playing world class level pool. Is it because they can pocket as many balls as the pros? I mean, you have to know the game like you know the game, know english, position, reading the table etc. But doesn't this all boil down to making the most balls...not missing shots...any.

I'm really not sure how to ask my question where I can trully get my point across, but I'm hoping you all understand what I am asking. For example, if I can run racks like nobodies business in 9-ball and/or straights, does that mean I'm good? How about one-pocket? I mean, yes you have do know how to play very intelligently, but in the end, can you pocket 8-balls in your pocket first before your opponent. I guess I'm thinking that my thought process of being good is keeping your opponent off the table and not missing a shot.
 
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You Can Always Tell A Traper By His Furs!

shoutout33 said:
Let me explain my title question. I've been doing a lot of reading on AZ's and one-pocket's websites. I've been reading about all of those cat's who back in the day gave you hell on the tables. I've also been reading about who's out their now and how good a lot of the pros are etc.

Now this may sound really, really silly...maybe even kind of stupid, but is pocket billards skill all based around how many balls you pocket? I mean seriously think about. When you hear about John Doe pool player from across town being good or really good or whatever and he meets up Doe John from the next town, is it just based on who pocket the most balls?

I know that it depends on the game, but I feel I know some really good pool players and they'll tell you, "Yeah, I'm good, but not THAT good!". And I'm thinking, dude your the best in our league or in this bar, why can't you compete again guys on the tour or at the US Aamateurs or wherever? You pocket balls as good as anyone else.

Also, people talk about the up and coming talent in pool here in the US and internationally, saying these kids are already playing world class level pool. Is it because they can pocket as many balls as the pros? I mean, you have to know the game like you know the game, know english, position, reading the table etc. But doesn't this all boil down to making the most balls...not missing shots...any.

I'm really not sure how to ask my question where I can trully get my point across, but I'm hoping you all understand what I am asking. For example, if I can run racks like nobodies business in 9-ball and/or straights, does that mean I'm good? How about one-pocket? I mean, yes you have do know how to play very intelligently, but in the end, can you pocket 8-balls in your pocket first before your opponent. I guess I'm thinking that my thought process of being good is keeping your opponent off the table and not missing a shot.
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Bottom Line - Play for Ca$h (lots of it) To find out who is the best player.
Do you really think Efren is considered The Best because of the trophies - NO - It's because he gets the Ca$h - When it counts!

TY & GL
 
Thanks O.H.B., believe it or not, this helps out a lot! So it depends on how well you can pocket balls in pressure situations right?
 
shoutout33 said:
Thanks O.H.B., believe it or not, this helps out a lot! So it depends on how well you can pocket balls in pressure situations right?
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OHB is right about handling the pressure, or the mental aspects of pressure. Given that now how well can someone kick, play tight safes, play good patterns, run a six pack in 9 ball, run 200+ in 14.1..,

There are many aspects to the game and even more so there are many, many levels of players. One guy that can put together runs that might match up with some else who can run the same numbers. believe it or not, there is most probably is a playing level distance. An A bracket could contain as many as 20 different level of players, maybe more.
 
Soooooo, if I'm excellent at pressure situations, have a strong mental game; and have some really good cue ball control, I don't have to be another "rifleman" if you will. (No harm ment Buddy...)
 
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shoutout33 said:
Let me explain my title question. I've been doing a lot of reading on AZ's and one-pocket's websites. I've been reading about all of those cat's who back in the day gave you hell on the tables. I've also been reading about who's out their now and how good a lot of the pros are etc.
.................

I'm really not sure how to ask my question where I can trully get my point across, but I'm hoping you all understand what I am asking. For example, if I can run racks like nobodies business in 9-ball and/or straights, does that mean I'm good? How about one-pocket? I mean, yes you have do know how to play very intelligently, but in the end, can you pocket 8-balls in your pocket first before your opponent. I guess I'm thinking that my thought process of being good is keeping your opponent off the table and not missing a shot.
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Technically speaking yes, to your entire post. Pressure, money, intimitation, analysis by paralysis and physical and mental readiness also plays apart of pool or any other game for that matter.
 
Ok, so before I start spending a bunch of money on books and training lessons, what can I do myself to help me achieve the goals of mental training, cue ball control, and perform my best in pressure situations? I know I need to practice and O.H.B. has said on many occasion to do some small action (play $5 a game, small stuff...), but how does one become good at cue ball control?!?!? All I ever hear is contact point this and follow through that.
 
shoutout33 said:
Let me explain my title question. I've been doing a lot of reading on AZ's and one-pocket's websites. I've been reading about all of those cat's who back in the day,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,ent off the table and not missing a shot.
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there is no up and comer who can play "world class pool". that's just pool hyperbole. he has to get up on the stage and prove himself. playing for cash is old school. mika and robles don't gamble,,,plus,,,, one can debate the pros and cons of gambling versus tournament play till the cows come home.

"good", as you would guess, is relative. imo, the top two or three in a given poolroom are those i would consider "good. "good" to me means competent.
 
shoutout33 said:
Ok, so before I start spending a bunch of money on books and training lessons, what can I do myself to help me achieve the goals of mental training, cue ball control, and perform my best in pressure situations? I know I need to practice and O.H.B. has said on many occasion to do some small action (play $5 a game, small stuff...), but how does one become good at cue ball control?!?!? All I ever hear is contact point this and follow through that.
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First of all, I live in a rural area on the west coast. In my local area there is good. But then there are much better players in nearby larger cities. Then there are much better players at state regionals. Then at nationals (not been to that), I hear the east coast players are much better than the west coast players.

So a "good" player in my local area is not diddly squat at state regionals.

Getting good at cue ball control (or at least learning)... Practice speed control daily. Practice hitting the cue ball 1/2 diamond, 1 diamond, 2 diamonds, 1/2 table length, 1 table length, 1 table length and then 1 diamond back, etc. You need to be able to hit the cue ball with different speeds.

Next break all 15 balls and hit each ball so it gently rolls in front of the pocket, but does not drop. This teaches you how lightly you can hit each ball to just barely make the pocket. It teaches you that a full ball hit gives the object ball more speed and a thin cut gives the object ball very little speed. And the opposite. The cue ball will go flying after a thin cut, but will not go far after a full ball hit. (And all the in-between). Continued in next post...
 
Get Dr. Dave's DVD at the following link. This will teach you where the cue ball will go after a hit depending on how you hit the cue ball. If you have a scratch shot, this DVD will teach you fundamentals which will greatly help you to avoid scratching by hitting the cue ball differently. You can use the same information to send the cue ball a particular direction after a hit so you will leave it in a good position for your next shot.

Putting it all together...

After learning speed control and fundamentals of where the cue ball will go after a shot, get Jimmy Reids DVDs at the second link. His DVDs take you through run-out after run-out. He tells you what he is doing for each shot and why.

Dr. Daves DVD...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/dvd_description.html

Jimmy Reids DVDs...
http://www.freepoollessons.com/video/index.shtml
 
shoutout33 said:
Ok, so before I start spending a bunch of money on books and training lessons, what can I do myself to help me achieve the goals of mental training, cue ball control, and perform my best in pressure situations? I know I need to practice and O.H.B. has said on many occasion to do some small action (play $5 a game, small stuff...), but how does one become good at cue ball control?!?!? All I ever hear is contact point this and follow through that.
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First get off this forum and goto your local pool room and start playing and maybe in about 3 years of playing you just might be good enough to win some regional event or start playing poker on the internet and win a seat at the WSOP and become a millioniare in about 60 days!
 
[q In pool, how good is...well, good? /q]

That's a subjective question. It comes down to the rule(s) of the game.

If you're playing "ball in hole", a shot can be sloped in. (that player may know gereral diamond theory. yet get the ball close :if not in: the pocket)

If you're playing slop, you're only asking for trouble (if you oppenent knows how to play)

If you're playing call pocket without ball in hand rules (i.e. straight bar rules), then it's a one on one, but the match will usually last long. Because it's usually a loudmouth "know-it-all" behind the other stick relying on his mouth's ability than his stick. Just own them.


In all actuallity, when you know someone is good, is if you recognise three key features:

Knowledge
Stroke
Cue Ball Position

Some have one of each

Some have two of each

Not many have three of each

Only a few have all three, and then some. Beware of them. You'll loose money/life/mind from them.

When you recognise that, then you'll know who's good and who's not.

Hope this helps in some form or fashion.
 
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RichardCranium said:
I think there is way more to it than that....There are many players that can pocket open balls under pressure...

It's the other apects that make the big difference...Like.... a good player will hit a kick shot and create some separation.....A great player will kick at the same shot and just "thin" the ball or stick the cue ball and hook you back......and perhaps in a worse position than you left them...

Poketing balls is very very important....but...in ALL the games....you don't always have a good ball to pocket when you come to the table....

Bottom line....I believe what creates the separtation between good players to GREAT players is "cue ball controle" (shape / safes / kicks)

There are TONS of players that make balls under pressure...but it won't do them any good if they don't get a shot.... JMO
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I totally agree with you. I think what makes a good player good is what it is that they do when they can't pocket a ball. Just because a some guy is a hell of a shotmaker and can pocket alot of balls doesn't make him a good player. I would rather play a guy like that than play a guy who'll pocket 5 or 6 balls and then play a freeze-up safety on you. When you play a guy for an hour and your only left with hard ass kick shots, it gets old pretty quick.
 
shoutout33 said:
Thanks O.H.B., believe it or not, this helps out a lot! So it depends on how well you can pocket balls in pressure situations right?
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It's not pocketing balls that matters. It is about keeping complete control of the table for as many games in a row as possible when you get that control. If each time you get ball in hand in winner breaks and you can only average winning 1 game before giving the control of the table back to your opponent then you are in trouble because one sctratch in a match against a top player will not cost you that game, it will likely cost you that game and the next three before you get another open shot at a ball.

Controling the table when you get your chances is what it is all about. When you get a chance to win you need to do it and then you need to break and run racks or play deadly safeties that never give your opponent a hope of getting control. Each chance you get has to result in multiple games won or you are not playing top end pool.
 
Celtic said:
It's not pocketing balls that matters. It is about keeping complete control of the table for as many games in a row as possible when you get that control. If each time you get ball in hand in winner breaks and you can only average winning 1 game before giving the control of the table back to your opponent then you are in trouble because one sctratch in a match against a top player will not cost you that game, it will likely cost you that game and the next three before you get another open shot at a ball.

Controling the table when you get your chances is what it is all about. When you get a chance to win you need to do it and then you need to break and run racks or play deadly safeties that never give your opponent a hope of getting control. Each chance you get has to result in multiple games won or you are not playing top end pool.
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Opie< Totally agreeing. Good post.
 
A lot of guys play great pool, but you need to improve on areas that will seperate you from the next guy. In 9 ball it could be killer safeties or break shot, or the jump shot or 9 foot cut shots. In straight pool it might be recognizing patterns, the break shot or breaking up clusters effectively. In eight ball it might be recognizing when to run out and when not to. It all depends on the game and how much practice and learn
 
shoutout33 said:
but how does one become good at cue ball control?!?!? All I ever hear is contact point this and follow through that.
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cue ball control is ALL about speed. just about every tom dick and harry playing pool can look at a shot and see the tangent line/s. everyone can look and say, the ball will take this path. BUT not everyone can make whitey stop where they want it.

how many of you can HONESTLY say they practice speed control???? i doubt very many if any can.

one of the most overlooked shots in pool is the lag.......it is speed control at its finest.........yet, how often do you see anyone practicing lag shots??? you should base your medium stroke from a lag shot that goes down the table and come back to rest on the short cushion. after you have gotten that medium stroke down, you can base every other stroke off of that, and you can adjust to any table from that medium stroke.

most people practice speed control by shooting shots and trying to land on a certain target...........but you NEVER see anyone practicing speed control with just the cue ball first..............if you can't control the cue ball by ITSELF how the hell do you think you can control the speed of the cue ball and the ojbect ball???

just some stuff to think about the next time anyone is practicing.

VAP
 
I tell you what good is ...

Good is when you are playing the Mexican National Champion in Vegas $80 a game 9 ball, and you have been going back and forth for a few hours, then
you are left with a hook on the 4 ball (8 inches out from the side pocket), and
you have about 5 inches to jump, and you call the 4 in side using a jump masse
shot, and make it, and finish running the table. After that shot, my buddy Mark owned that game the rest of the night. It you could see the angles it had, a straight jump shot would not make it, it had to masse left after jumping to hit the 4 correctly to cut it in the side. And he called it before he shot it.

That's good.
 
Snapshot9 said:
Good is when you are playing the Mexican National Champion in Vegas $80 a game 9 ball, and you have been going back and forth for a few hours, then
you are left with a hook on the 4 ball (8 inches out from the side pocket), and
you have about 5 inches to jump, and you call the 4 in side using a jump masse
shot, and make it, and finish running the table. After that shot, my buddy Mark owned that game the rest of the night. It you could see the angles it had, a straight jump shot would not make it, it had to masse left after jumping to hit the 4 correctly to cut it in the side. And he called it before he shot it.

That's good.
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Good is when you play a guy a race to 7 for all your cash. He wins the flip and runs 5 on you! You step to the table and run 7 and out! :D
 
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