In praise of thinner tips

Am I confused here? A number of people have been suggesting that the smaller diameter shaft/tips produce more english. As far as I understand, it's not the shaft/tip diameter but the radius of the tip's curvature. For a given offset of the center of the shaft, a smaller radius of curvature yields more contact "point" offset. This amplifies unintended english a bit, but should not allow you to get more maximum english than with a larger radius of curvature. This is governed by something else (coefficient of friction).

What does the diameter of the shaft/tip have to do with this? As far as I know, nothing. Okay, you might get slightly less squirt by shaving off some of the endmass, but the "spin saving" you gain by reducing squirt is miniscule.

Or, maybe I'm neglecting something?

Jim
 
Jal said:
Am I confused here? A number of people have been suggesting that the smaller diameter shaft/tips produce more english. As far as I understand, it's not the shaft/tip diameter but the radius of the tip's curvature. For a given offset of the center of the shaft, a smaller radius of curvature yields more contact "point" offset. This amplifies unintended english a bit, but should not allow you to get more maximum english than with a larger radius of curvature. This is governed by something else (coefficient of friction).

What does the diameter of the shaft/tip have to do with this? As far as I know, nothing. Okay, you might get slightly less squirt by shaving off some of the endmass, but the "spin saving" you gain by reducing squirt is miniscule.

Or, maybe I'm neglecting something?

Jim
Click to expand...
Yeah, according to Shepard's paper even a Z shaft which squirts about 30% less than the average cue, should only produce about 5% max more spin after adjusting for speed.

Steve
 
Hey, different pokes, for different strokes, for different folks. Right? No? Fine I'll go play by myself :p
 
Jal said:
What does the diameter of the shaft/tip have to do with this? As far as I know, nothing. Okay, you might get slightly less squirt by shaving off some of the endmass, but the "spin saving" you gain by reducing squirt is miniscule.

Or, maybe I'm neglecting something?

Jim
Click to expand...
I think that a smaller diameter shaft can get more english, because it can strike the cue ball further off-center. Imagine an exagerated tip diameter of 30 mm. Since the center of the cue ball is closer to the player, than the outer edge, The tip would contact closer to the center of the ball than where the center of the tip is aiming. It is not what is on the shaft, but what is not on it. If you are cueing very low, with a small diameter shaft you can get lower, without the outer edge of the tip hitting the cloth.

I agree with your smaller radius tip curvature statement. It is easier to get a small radius curvature on a small diameter tip.

Tracy
 
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I like a tip to be slightly smaller than 13mm. I have started using the tip to aim with and I can see my spot on the object ball better with a smaller tip.
 
Agreed. 12.55-12.80ish is a pretty magical zone in terms of tip diameter.

For me anyways! :D
 
A little over a year ago I was looking for something different from the average snooker cue that is used here in Australia, so I decided to get a 9 Ball cue from the US (a Lucasi from Joe Rackem off ebay, great transaction!). I asked the forum what I should expect from a 13mm tip, and received many of the comments that have already been mentioned.

One point that I didn't realise at the time, but now love, is that 9 Ball cues are almost always heavier that snooker cues. My last cue was a Riley with a 9.5mm tip, and it weighed 16.5Oz. My Lucasi is 20Oz. What I have found is I let the weight of the cue do much of the work, and I don't have to impart as much power in the stroke to break or to make the cue ball follow on. This has lead to an improvement in the acuraccy of my shots, but for the first 3-4 months I was starting to believe some who said "you can't play with something that big!" (now they say I can play, but would be better with a snooker cue:) ). I play UK 8ball on the smaller tables (although I am starting to play some 9 Ball), but I can still impart as much english as with my previous 9.5mm tip, perhaps because I am more comfortable in my stroke. I am interested in what change a smaller tip would have, and am debating whether to get a new shaft (maybe a Z).

I'm only a local league player, but I love threads such as this one, as they add to my knowledge of the my passion.

Daniel:D
 
I recently started playing with a 12.75mm and I like a lot more than my regular 13.15-25mm Schon shaft.

Slides better in a closed bridge. Offers less deflection. Love it!
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Most pool low deflection shafts are around 12.5-12.75mm range... regular shafts are always 13mm and a bit over...

Why is that?
 
Because you can always take the shaft down, but you can't build it back up ;)

It's just a fairly "standard" thing, why was 13 the magical number? Who knows.
It might have something to do with this though :

Several cue makers use a fairly large tenon under the ferrule, this makes a more sound, durable, and "warrantee" worthy cue. Ever seen a ferrule break? Not pretty nor fun ;)

Think about it, if the ferrule wall thickness is too thin, problems can occur with the tenon/ferrule combination. Especially after repeated use/abuse and hard shots.


That being said, if it is a piece of wood, has a tip, and is anywhere between 40 some inches and 68 some inches, I bet with enough practice I could get pretty good with it :D
 
My tip is now at 12.25 mm. Basically, if I change to even a slightly wider tip, I find my fine cue ball control is challenged and there is a definite re-learning curve. I prefer a thinner tip and shaft diameter as well.
 
It's really all about finding your comfort zone I suppose. People who think a different shaft, tip, cue, etc will save them are only practicing self-deception.

Because, in the end; it's not the stick, it's the "sticker".

If you are comfortable with the cue, stick with it. Later on when you are a more established player you may want to experiment, but as TATE pointed out; there's always that re-learning curve.
 
I think whether to go to a thinner shaft is a matter of comfort. Larger diameters are more forgiving of slight miscentering on the cueball. I play with 12.5mm parabolic, which is my preferred shaft. I had it made that way because my fingers are relatively short and the thinner diameter makes it easier to make a secure closed bridge. I also use a 12.75mm pro taper for games requiring a longer stroke, which is equally comfortable. A 13mm is simply less comfortable. That said, however, I must be careful where I hit the cueball with the thinner shaft. You might not think 1/2mm would make that much difference, but it does. It's a lot easier to apply unexpected spin to the cueball if care isn't taken to find the center when using a smaller diameter.
 
tedkaufman said:
I think whether to go to a thinner shaft is a matter of comfort. Larger diameters are more forgiving of slight miscentering on the cueball. I play with 12.5mm parabolic, which is my preferred shaft. I had it made that way because my fingers are relatively short and the thinner diameter makes it easier to make a secure closed bridge. I also use a 12.75mm pro taper for games requiring a longer stroke, which is equally comfortable. A 13mm is simply less comfortable. That said, however, I must be careful where I hit the cueball with the thinner shaft. You might not think 1/2mm would make that much difference, but it does. It's a lot easier to apply unexpected spin to the cueball if care isn't taken to find the center when using a smaller diameter.
Click to expand...
Just curious Ted - what do you mean when you say "parabolic" - I assume that refers to the taper?

Steve
 
inthezone said:
Just curious Ted - what do you mean when you say "parabolic" - I assume that refers to the taper?

Steve
Click to expand...

Parabolic is a constant taper--think cone. This taper makes for a stiffer playing shaft. An extended taper, or "pro taper," has an extended length from the ferrule with minimal taper for 8-12", then it tapers out gradually to the joint. This design makes for a springier shaft that produces more action, at the expense of feel and precise control.
 
RSB-Refugee said:
I think that a smaller diameter shaft can get more english, because it can strike the cue ball further off-center. Imagine an exagerated tip diameter of 30 mm. Since the center of the cue ball is closer to the player, than the outer edge, The tip would contact closer to the center of the ball than where the center of the tip is aiming. It is not what is on the shaft, but what is not on it. If you are cueing very low, with a small diameter shaft you can get lower, without the outer edge of the tip hitting the cloth.

I agree with your smaller radius tip curvature statement. It is easier to get a small radius curvature on a small diameter tip.

Tracy
Click to expand...
I like your 30 mm thought experiment. It always helps to exaggerate when it's difficult to see what the underlying trend is like. But I still have to disagree with your conclusion. If two cues have the same tip curvature, then given the same shaft offset they will contact the cueball at the same point regardless of their diameters. And if two tips have different curvatures, you can always increase the shaft offset on the one that's flatter to get the same maximum english.

I agree about the draw shot. It's possible that at maximum offset and with a lot of cue speed, the tip can hit the bed before the end of contact, or at least come very close.

Your point about it being easier to put a smaller radius on a thinner shaft/tip probably does explain what some of the posters have been describing. It seems more natural to go with the smaller radius too. Thanks.

Jim
 
Depends on How you shoot

For 12.75 and smaller i would reccomend for someone that uses a lot of english, 3 rail leaves etc.

13mm would be much better for a buddy hall style of play, strait forward and simple.

personally i am much more consistant with a 13mm mainly because with a smaller tip you have more variations of english that you can use that will greatly effect your shot. with a 13mm you are somewhat limited which suits my style of play fine. if i could shoot 9 center ball shots shots in a 9ball rack i wouldnt be complaining.

PunchOut
 
As people become more fine tuned in their skill at shotmaking, and they have a need for heavy spin english, they shold start to decrease the size of their shaft. A 13mm shaft is a tip diameter that is suitable for most people, including beginners, but as mentioned earlier, does not allow for extreme spin. Granted, there is more margin for error, so there has to be some settling point for people.

I once tried a very thin shaft, and thought the thinner the better, but I found that shotmaking became very difficult as I got smaller. I had my 12.75 Jackson shaft turned down to 11mm!

At first, I thought it was perfect, but I soon realized that I would be more consistent with a larger diameter.

For me, a crossover closed bridge shooter, I still like a small diameter, but not so small it imparts extreme, sometimes unnecessary, spin.

I had a shaft made by Greg Sowder at 11.75 and with a more "european" taper to it, as opposed to a pro taper. It has the same play and feel of a Predator Z, but doesn't impart as quite as much spin with my Triangle tip.

Hand me a 13mm, and I won't miss, but I have no cue ball.
Hand me an 11, and I will pull 5 rail shape and draw two table lengths, but struggle with shotmaking.

Everyone must find their own personal target diameter; all depending on bridge, bridge length, shotmaking ability, and how much English (side) they like to use to get shape.
 
PunchOut said:
For 12.75 and smaller i would reccomend for someone that uses a lot of english, 3 rail leaves etc.

13mm would be much better for a buddy hall style of play, strait forward and simple.

personally i am much more consistant with a 13mm mainly because with a smaller tip you have more variations of english that you can use that will greatly effect your shot. with a 13mm you are somewhat limited which suits my style of play fine. if i could shoot 9 center ball shots shots in a 9ball rack i wouldnt be complaining.

PunchOut
Click to expand...

Billiardcue.com has one of Buddy's personal cues for sale right now. It's a Meucci with 3 shafts- 11.7 mm, 12.3 mm, 12.3 mm.

http://www.billiardcue.com/cues.php?view=1&search_letter=m
 
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