Intentional Foul Question

M

maxeypad2007

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So playing 9-ball. There is no shot really to return a safe on the one other than taking a foul on the three...so the only shot is to push through the three and try to jam it up into position A...however the ball only makes it to position B. Since the player has already fouled what would happen here if they then intentionally double clutched to jam the ball up farther since its a foul already?

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This could be construed as unsportsmanlike conduct, but I'm simply curious from a rules perspective what should happen here. The other player will obviously be getting ball in hand.

This came up actually tonight and I thought about this when I saw someone undershoot a shot like this where they were taking a foul
 
Should be loss of game, perhaps loss of match.

The TD should be called to make a decision.
 
If someone missed their intentional foul safety and then hit it again to push it further up they'd get a size 12 shoved up their colon. I wouldn't tolerate any kind of garbage like that. They'd get the foot in the ass and then a finger pointing where they need to be to be racking the next game.
MULLY
 
???

maxeypad2007 said:
So playing 9-ball. There is no shot really to return a safe on the one other than taking a foul on the three...so the only shot is to push through the three and try to jam it up into position A...however the ball only makes it to position B. Since the player has already fouled what would happen here if they then intentionally double clutched to jam the ball up farther since its a foul already?

CueTable Help



This could be construed as unsportsmanlike conduct, but I'm simply curious from a rules perspective what should happen here. The other player will obviously be getting ball in hand.

This came up actually tonight and I thought about this when I saw someone undershoot a shot like this where they were taking a foul
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td, COULD CALL UNSPORTSMAN[sorry] or replace 3 in position b WITH Q IN HAND TO INCOMING PLAYER.
 
The 3 is already tied up...probably better to purposely tie the 6 up.

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If it were an accident, it is a foul just a foul. If this was purposefully done, it is loss of game. Also, some places and tourneys, forfeiture of a match.
 
crawfish said:
If it were an accident, it is a foul just a foul. If this was purposefully done, it is loss of game. Also, some places and tourneys, forfeiture of a match.
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That's what I'd think.

A tournament where the level of play is not likely to lead to someone breaking and running 3 or more racks is one thing. However, at the top levels -- at world class pool -- where some break and run 7 racks or more, that kind of intentional double foul could have an incredible effect on the match.

How frequently does one come across tournaments where forfeiture of the match occurs after this kind of intentional foul?

Flex
 
mullyman said:
If someone missed their intentional foul safety and then hit it again to push it further up they'd get a size 12 shoved up their colon. I wouldn't tolerate any kind of garbage like that. They'd get the foot in the ass and then a finger pointing where they need to be to be racking the next game.
MULLY
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So it's OK to foul a little, but you can't foul a lot? Where exactly do you draw the line?
 
maxeypad2007 said:
Thats kind of what I'm saying where is the line drawn.
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Where's Bob Jewett when he's needed? All I've heard so far are opinions and opinions don't count. I want a rule number that covers this situation.

Dick
 
punch him in the mouth then respot the balls and let him shoot em again.
He wont do it twice.



and yeah its unsportmanlike conduct. someones gotta have to rule number out there.
 
Am I the only one that didn't know what "intentionally double clutched " meant?

I am assuming, based on the responses, it means the player who made the foul somehow pushed/shot the 3ball some more after their shot at the table?
 
double clutching is when on your last stroke before you hit the ball, you "accidentally" touch the ball with the tip, and then you hit it normally. It's a double hit.

What they are talking about here is shoving the ball so that it continues on after it travels a few inches and then stops.
 
maxeypad2007 said:
Thats kind of what I'm saying where is the line drawn.
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You can intentionally foul as long as it's a legal stroke; i.e. the cue tip hits the CB once and only once, in a normal forward stroking motion.

If you intentionally hit the ball illegally, though, such as raking it with the side of the cue, pushing (rather than hitting), or intentionally double-hitting, then this is ruled as intentionally moving the balls by means other than a legal stroke, which is an instance of unsportsmanlike conduct. Unsportsmanlike conduct rules (usually loss of game) apply.

-Andrew
 
ronhudson said:
So it's OK to foul a little, but you can't foul a lot? Where exactly do you draw the line?
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If you allow him this then whats to stop him from just picking up the 3 and moving it to where he wants it. Thatd be an intentional foul also right?
 
Another scenario.......

This reminds me of a story I heard about a 1 pocket match between 2 pretty good players. During the match one player is shooting over a ball and accidently touches the ball while practice stroking. The other player calls foul. After a long argument between the players it is agreed that they are going to play all ball fouls not just cue ball fouls.
So, after this the shooting player again is looking at another shot where he is possibly going to foul. Instead he simply takes his cue and rakes "all" the balls toward his pocket. His opponent jumps from his seat and says foul again. At which the shooter replies "ok I will spot one".:eek:
 
That's exactly the story I was thinking about when I heard this. If this came up in a gambling situtation I would first let the offending player know that was a loss of game. If he argued then I would concede the point, but next time he played safe I would just move all the balls around the table however I wanted and give him ball in hand.

In a tourney with a referee and it is obviously intentional - loss of game at least.
 
Where's Bob Jewett when he's needed? All I've heard so far are opinions and opinions don't count. ...
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Probably sleeping.

Shooting twice is unsportsmanlike conduct, but it takes some interpretation of the current rule to get there. A harder question is whether the intentional double hit by itself should be unsportsmanlike conduct.

See section 6 in the rules: http://www.wpa-pool.com/
 
In tournament play, intentional fouls are allowed. If you use the tip of the cue to make a normal stroke, you can make a foul. The problem is that there is no written rule on where to draw the line between a regular intentional foul and unsportmanship conduct. So, a referee/the TD has to make a ruling based on his judgment. This is how I would rule the following scenarios (remember, you might get different rulings from different referees/TD's):

a) intentional foul in which a player pushes the 3-ball to make a cluster - a regular foul, no unsportmanship conduct. Making clusters with a regular shooting motion using the tip of your cue is a basic strategy in pool. Doesn't really matter if he can make the shot with or without the push stroke, it's a foul anyway.
b) intentional foul in which player uses to the tip of cue, pushes through a whole row of balls/several balls with a regular shooting motion with a clear intention to gain advantage by for instance pushing many balls towards his hole in 1pocket - unsportmanship conduct and a loss of rack. (remember, unsportmanship conduct isn't always a foul straight away, a warning can also be issued if the situation is unclear on the players original intentions)
c) player double clutches the cueball, meaning he hits it slightly in his first try and immediately shoots again trying to cover his mistake and moves the 3-ball in the original scenario - I'd warn him for unsportmanlike conduct because he was trying to alter the situation after he had taken his shot, but I wouldn't penalize him further. I'd offer the oncoming player the option to replace the 3-ball in its original position or take the table as it lies (with BIH of course).
d) all other scenarios with a player moving/brushing all the balls with the intention to gain an advantage - unsportmanlike conduct on a "heavier scale". Loss of rack at minimum, probably forfeiture of the match or banning the player from the whole tournament.

Hope this helps. Would be nice to hear input from Bob Jewett as well.

Mikko Jantti
official EPBF referee
 
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