Invitationals

[Grady]

This projected "Skins Game" and everything of it's ilk are awful for pool. Other sports, like golf, were very popular and successful before they embarked on such productions.
It's not right to have meetings behind closed doors and "handpick" the contestants and the format.
I decided to be more mellow in the last couple of years but this needed to be said. Being biased about things like "Ring Games" rankles me, too.When I do tournaments or Ring Games, any pro can play.

 

[Williebetmore]

Grady,
Actually I think Skin's games are bad for golf too. There's a reason they call it the "Silly Season."

 

[sjm]

This projected "Skins Game" and everything of it's ilk are awful for pool. Other sports, like golf, were very popular and successful before they embarked on such productions.
It's not right to have meetings behind closed doors and "handpick" the contestants and the format.
I decided to be more mellow in the last couple of years but this needed to be said. Being biased about things like "Ring Games" rankles me, too.When I do tournaments or Ring Games, any pro can play.

I'm in fundamental agreement with you, Grady. This sort of handpicking of competitors is inherently unfair.

Having said that, though, there should be some way of enabling event promoters to restrict participation in an event to the elite, provided that the matter of who the elite are is judged objectively, and that all pros have equal access to joining the ranks of the elite.

 

[macguy]

This projected "Skins Game" and everything of it's ilk are awful for pool. Other sports, like golf, were very popular and successful before they embarked on such productions.
It's not right to have meetings behind closed doors and "handpick" the contestants and the format.
I decided to be more mellow in the last couple of years but this needed to be said. Being biased about things like "Ring Games" rankles me, too.When I do tournaments or Ring Games, any pro can play.

If someone wants to put on an invitational tournament, what is wrong with that? It is not so much a sporting event, but more of an exhibition that is for the sole purpose of making a few bucks and who plays is their business. If it were an open event and you were told you could not play that would be one thing, but it is a private party and you were not invited. If it is successful maybe they will do more with different casts of players. Can't see how it is in any way bad for pool. Pool is not really a professional sport anyway, it is an industry. It is unlikely there will ever be a time when someone will be able to make a living as a player. It is fun to play and millions of players enjoy it on a regular basis but don't expect to make a living at it.

 

[countessdracula]

i also don't see anything wrong with invitationals. sometimes it's not just knowing who's the best for the record that is important to me. sometimes i just want to see my favorite players in action. somehow i also agree that pool is an industry. if you're an organizer of an invitational, it's normal that you would bring in the marketable players. and why not? it'll be good for you and the fans as well. they'll be thankful that you brought the players they want to see.

however, i have nothing against the idea of setting up an objective selection method for invitational events. i think the purely discretionary invitational can be good primarily for the fans while that one being suggested by sjm can be good primarily for the players.

 

[cueball1950]

invitationals....Grady read & reply

This projected "Skins Game" and everything of it's ilk are awful for pool. Other sports, like golf, were very popular and successful before they embarked on such productions.
It's not right to have meetings behind closed doors and "handpick" the contestants and the format.
I decided to be more mellow in the last couple of years but this needed to be said. Being biased about things like "Ring Games" rankles me, too.When I do tournaments or Ring Games, any pro can play.

the only thing i can see wrong with invitationals is that some people don't get invited and their feelings get hurt. Just like in Virginia at the Open. Danny "kid delicious" Basavitch don't get invited to the ring game that was a cancelled there cuz he was not camera friendly. Don't get the wrong idea. It was not Barry berhman who made that decision. The TV people made that call. But you can be rest assured that his feelings were hurt.
so what is the answer. let anybody play. I can picture that happening. so we just have to go with the flow.
now a question for you Grady. If Alan had invited you, would you still be making the same post here. Someone else had an invitational and cuz you were not invited you made a negative post about that also. Is this because you have not been invited and your feelings are hurt a little.
Grady....everybody knows your place in the pool world history books. everybody knows how good you were and your accomplishments and all. That is why they call you the professor. cuz of your knowledge. so have your own pool school and pass some of that knowledge around to these young kids that want to learn 1 pocket. So let alan and who ever wants to put on what they want and go on with your life. Hold your own invitite tourney. I am sure that it would be a success..........mike

 

[Grady]

If this type of thing is legitimate and good for the sport and Hopkins and others don't think they are smarter than us pool fans---- why not prove it by letting three non-partisan billiard industry people pick who gets to play?
If my commentary isn't good enough for TV work, prove it to me by allowing me to audition in a fair way!!! I don't want anything for nothing, especially from Hopkins or someone like him. But I would like a chance to try out for something I'm good at or so I've been told.
As far as me getting invited to anything I gave up on that years ago.The last BCA 14.1 tournament, they picked a guy who had never played a single game of straight pool over me.
I saw the just for fun list of players one poster created and I thought it was really good, that is if you were a fair, non-discriminating person that wanted to have a quality field for this purported "Skins Game".
What our great sport needs is well run tournaments, with respectable prize money and commentated upon by guys with small egos and good vocabularies. Once it's properly loved and well watched all over the world, then you can have specialty events. Let me finish by stating that ESPN is not a good vehicle for pool. They rob us and other small sports so they can pay 200 million or more for baseball or football.
Thanks for your kind attention,
Grady

 

[macguy]

If this type of thing is legitimate and good for the sport and Hopkins and others don't think they are smarter than us pool fans---- why not prove it by letting three non-partisan billiard industry people pick who gets to play?
If my commentary isn't good enough for TV work, prove it to me by allowing me to audition in a fair way!!! I don't want anything for nothing, especially from Hopkins or someone like him. But I would like a chance to try out for something I'm good at or so I've been told.
As far as me getting invited to anything I gave up on that years ago.The last BCA 14.1 tournament, they picked a guy who had never played a single game of straight pool over me.
I saw the just for fun list of players one poster created and I thought it was really good, that is if you were a fair, non-discriminating person that wanted to have a quality field for this purported "Skins Game".
What our great sport needs is well run tournaments, with respectable prize money and commentated upon by guys with small egos and good vocabularies. Once it's properly loved and well watched all over the world, then you can have specialty events. Let me finish by stating that ESPN is not a good vehicle for pool. They rob us and other small sports so they can pay 200 million or more for baseball or football.
Thanks for your kind attention,
Grady[/QUOTE

It is business and not a democratic process and where do they owe you anything? Why in the world would they owe you a tryout as a commentator? What they do is in no way shape of form any of your business. If you want to spend your time complaining how life is not fair, that is your prerogative, but no one owes you anything, it is their business venture.

 

[JustPlay]

If this type of thing is legitimate and good for the sport and Hopkins and others don't think they are smarter than us pool fans---- why not prove it by letting three non-partisan billiard industry people pick who gets to play?
If my commentary isn't good enough for TV work, prove it to me by allowing me to audition in a fair way!!! I don't want anything for nothing, especially from Hopkins or someone like him. But I would like a chance to try out for something I'm good at or so I've been told.
As far as me getting invited to anything I gave up on that years ago.The last BCA 14.1 tournament, they picked a guy who had never played a single game of straight pool over me.
I saw the just for fun list of players one poster created and I thought it was really good, that is if you were a fair, non-discriminating person that wanted to have a quality field for this purported "Skins Game".
..............................
Grady

Grady, I agree, that the US Open 14.1 championships have become embarrasing to the game of pool. The pockets are big, players have to wear a tuxedo, only 32 players are invited (funny how the word OPEN is mentioned when in fact it is not) and it is played once every decade. Just like the US Open One pocket folded because of big pockets and anyone who could make a ball won the tournament by shotmaking alone. I know this is off the subject alittle, but I just had to add my 2 cents about since you briefly mentioned it.

Like I have said before in other threads: At this time (unfortunitly), this is as good as it gets for pocket billiards period. No mens tour, no money for a mens tour, just some good tournaments 5-8 times a year and that is it. The future of this game is over seas and not on American soil. Professional Bowlers make more money than pool players and always will and the womens tour will always rein supreme, thanks to Allen Hopkins.

Most UPA events are invitational, the challenge of champions are invitationals and the US 14.1 is an invitational.

 

[DaveKhome]

It is business and not a democratic process and where do they owe you anything? Why in the world would they owe you a tryout as a commentator? What they do is in no way shape of form any of your business. If you want to spend your time complaining how life is not fair, that is your prerogative, but no one owes you anything, it is their business venture.

Tap tap tap.

Dave

 

[Grady]

I never said they owed me anything, especially Hopkins. But they do owe the sport something, they being the current crop of promoters of pool on TV.
Look, we can make this much easier. I don't need this type of aggravation. I really don't. And speaking of owing, I don't owe internet posters anything either.
I'll just do my own events and try to elevate the sport I love the best ways I know. I have always felt honor bound to rail against the Hopkins' of the pool community and the awful organizations that have influenced our sport. Kinda like Teddy Atlas does with boxing, only he gets respected for his views and well paid.

 

[JPB]

"I don't owe internet posters anything either.
I'll just do my own events and try to elevate the sport I love the best ways I know."


This is the most sensible thing you have said. The only way pool will ever get where we would like to see it is if INDIVIDUALS do something for purely selfish reasons. (The term selfish implies more than mere monetary desire. It means doing something you value, and the values flowing from that include, but are not limited to, money) I detest the idea of somebody dictating what some other organization ought to do for the benefit of some mythical "community" or other. do really like seeing promoters succeed, and I would love seeing pool become a bigger sport. So good luck with all your ventures. I hope they work and you make money and promote pool. If they don't, I hope other individuals will selfishly step up and get something going. I also hope people telling others what they ought to do with their money will see the philosophical error of their ways and embrace selfishness in its most accurate and beneficial definition. GL.

 

[woody_968]

I'll just do my own events and try to elevate the sport I love the best ways I know.

That is the best and only thing you can do.

I understand your view on this (somewhat) but I will say I hate to see someone putting down someone else for trying to promote pool. It may not be in a way that you want, but at least its an effort. If everyone that likes pool would truly support the efforts of those that are trying then I think we may take a step forward. Until then it is just spinning our wheels.

I have always been a fan of yours Grady, and I know you are one of the few people out there that want to see billiards grow just because you love the game. So I hope you understand the point I am wanting to make.

 

[deadstroke32]

That is the best and only thing you can do.

I understand your view on this (somewhat) but I will say I hate to see someone putting down someone else for trying to promote pool. It may not be in a way that you want, but at least its an effort. If everyone that likes pool would truly support the efforts of those that are trying then I think we may take a step forward. Until then it is just spinning our wheels.

I have always been a fan of yours Grady, and I know you are one of the few people out there that want to see billiards grow just because you love the game. So I hope you understand the point I am wanting to make.

ok what is skins games ? Are there women playing in this ? cause i'll be there all day ..

 

[sjm]

...If everyone that likes pool would truly support the efforts of those that are trying then I think we may take a step forward. Until then it is just spinning our wheels...

Tap, tap, tap, Woody.

 

[cardiac kid]

OK, here is my two cents. Who chooses the players for the Mohegan Sun Events? Who chooses the players for the ESPN Seven Ball event? Who chose the players for the Women's World Trick Shot Competition? Ad nausium. They weren't off any list I know. I doubt if some of the players knew they were under consideration.

In January, two ring games were held at the DCC. If you had the required money to enter, you played. That was a great idea. I guess the "ring" game has become one of the hottest formats for pool. However, why should we chastise another pool promoter because their idea is different from yours/mine/ours? I understand Grady has worked tirelessly to promote pool in a difficult economic environment. So have Allen and Dawn. Not in the same way. Both are promoting the games of pool. I wish both the absolute best of luck.

I wonder if Mark Griffin has his fingers crossed for the US Open One Pocket event in Vegas? Who is going to try to "torpedo" his efforts? I'll be there, will you?

 

[sjm]

OK, here is my two cents. Who chooses the players for the Mohegan Sun Events? Who chooses the players for the ESPN Seven Ball event? Who chose the players for the Women's World Trick Shot Competition? Ad nausium. They weren't off any list I know. I doubt if some of the players knew they were under consideration.

Well, CK, I can answer some of this.

For the men's Mohegan Sun International Challenge of Champions and 7-ball events, I don't know the field selection method.

For the women's Mohegan Sun challenge of Champions, the four player field is chosen as follows: Anybody having won at least one WPBA event in the previous year is in, and if, as is generally the case, this doesn't fill the intended four player field, then the remainder of the field is filled based on WPBA ranking.

For the recent women's trick shot tourney, months before the event itself, all WPBA players were advised that if they wished to be considered for inclusion in the field, they should prepare and submit a videotape of their trickshots for consideration by the event producers at Mohegan Sun, who would then make a determination of who would be invited.

In my opinion, in each case, the women's fields were chosen fairly. As noted, I just don't know how the two men's fields were chosen. Hope that helps.

 

[Williebetmore]

Just a thought (for those who think that any pool on t.v. or any pool events are "good for the sport"). To encourage the proliferation of these invitational events is to encourage the public perception that pool is just a demonstration sport, not a competitive sport. It is the same reason that 9-ball is bad for the sport - it is not a fair test of the relative skill of the competitors, so what's the point??? I think all fans (myself included) take much more interest in competitions if they can truly believe that if their favorite wins, then he is the best - I've rarely thought that about pool (though WPBA is an exception since the best are so far ahead of the rest).

 

[sjm]

Just a thought (for those who think that any pool on t.v. or any pool events are "good for the sport"). To encourage the proliferation of these invitational events is to encourage the public perception that pool is just a demonstration sport, not a competitive sport. It is the same reason that 9-ball is bad for the sport - it is not a fair test of the relative skill of the competitors, so what's the point??? I think all fans (myself included) take much more interest in competitions if they can truly believe that if their favorite wins, then he is the best - I've rarely thought that about pool (though WPBA is an exception since the best are so far ahead of the rest).

As you well know, Willie, I'm among those who concedes that straight pool is a slightly better test of cueing skills. Still, let's not equate competitive nine ball with a roll of the dice. The truth is that the game of nine ball has, in fact, weeded out the elite in men's pool.

If straight pool had been the game of choice of pros over the past twenty years, I'm of the opinion that the same guys who have won all the titles in nine ball would also have been the big winners in straight pool. Whatever the game is, the cream rises tro the top. Sigel and Varner were the two best straight poolers when the pro game switched to nine ball, and neither lost a beat, each continuing to win many major titles.

I'll freely admit, Willie, that aberrations from form in the short-term is a bigger issue in nine ball. I'd venture a guess that Gabe Owen's unexpected US Open nine ball win has some (though not me) considering this, but cinderella stories have been produced in major straight pool events, too. Larry Lisciotti's 1976 World Open 14.1 championship and Tom Jennings' 1976/77 US Open 14.1 championships come to mind.

 

[cueball1950]

As you well know, Willie, I'm among those who concedes that straight pool is a slightly better test of cueing skills. Still, let's not equate competitive nine ball with a roll of the dice. The truth is that the game of nine ball has, in fact, weeded out the elite in men's pool.

If straight pool had been the game of choice of pros over the past twenty years, I'm of the opinion that the same guys who have won all the titles in nine ball would also have been the big winners in straight pool. Whatever the game is, the cream rises tro the top. Sigel and Varner were the two best straight poolers when the pro game switched to nine ball, and neither lost a beat, each continuing to win many major titles.

I'll freely admit, Willie, that aberrations from form in the short-term is a bigger issue in nine ball. I'd venture a guess that Gabe Owen's unexpected US Open nine ball win has some (though not me) considering this, but cinderella stories have been produced in major straight pool events, too. Larry Lisciotti's World Open 14.1 championship and Tom Jennings' 1977 US Open 14.1 championship come to mind.

It is just to bad nobody will want to hold another 14.1 U.S. Open again. i agree that holding 1 every 10 years or so is just to bad. But lets look on the other side of the coin for the last 1. From the stories told to me from reliable sources Blatt,the promoter, lost roughly 80k on the last 1. The turn out for it just was not there.Hell. this is the U.S. Open for pete's sake. and when held in a city like NY and they cannot even get 250 people to watch it live. I was there and what a poor showing it was to say the least. In order to hold it and make a profit, move it back to the pool halls or put it in a hotel ball room. Maybe Barry Berhman Would be willing to put up 25k to have it at the same venue as the Open 9 ball. Either way i would predict only a very small crowd to watch it live. to bad it will never be profitable. Hell, mike sigel wants a couple of grand just to show up for the 14.1 Open. So what does that tell you about the game we all love.................................mike