IPT banning tip/ferrule combo?

[seiyaryu55]

Rail assisted jumps are hard and not always dependable. I like to do them for trick shots, but for tournament matches i would just go for a kick. Although if i could do rail assisted jumps 8 out of 10 times, then i might consider using it.

I use to jump with a full cue, but after getting a jump cue with phenolic tip, it has really made jumping much easier. Seeing this topic, i tried jumping again with a full cue, and i could still jump a full ball as long as there was a decent distance between the cue ball and object ball.

Since its 8-ball being played, i cant really see jumping come into play as often as it does in 9-ball.

 

[AuntyDan]

This is cut directly from the BCA webpage http://www.bca-pool.com/play/
The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material

I thought that in the early days of phenolic tips/ferrules they were basically chopping up leather to add to the phenolic so they could classify it as a "specially processed leather" material? If the IPT are saying JUST leather this will definately rule out a lot of the specialized jump and break cues on the market at present. Might even rule out laminated leather tips if you want to be really fussy about defining a pure leather tip.

Some exceptions are the Predator BK (Original model not the new II model) and possibly the Jerico Stinger (Their website says it uses a tip material that IS approved by the BCA, but does not state what that material is other than leather.)

 

[Cornerman]

Isn't the leather tip rule in the BCA rule book also? My understanding is that it's there to protect the cue ball from being damaged.

The BCA rulebook allows synthetic leather and other fibrous materials. The phenolic used in ferrule/tip combos fits part of that rule.

Fred

 

[X Breaker]

Almost all the jump break cues on the market nowadays are legal per BCA rules. However, the IPT rule is a different story.
I have the same question as to how they define leather tip, may be Deno would care to clarify it?
Does the leather have to be 100% pure leather, if so, how do the IPT official examine that and what about laminated leather tips? If not, then how much leather has to be present in order for the tip to be considered a legal leather tip per IPT rule?

Thank you.
Richard

 

[pbat2751]

Almost all the jump break cues on the market nowadays are legal per BCA rules. However, the IPT rule is a different story.
I have the same question as to how they define leather tip, may be Deno would care to clarify it?
Does the leather have to be 100% pure leather, if so, how do the IPT official examine that and what about laminated leather tips? If not, then how much leather has to be present in order for the tip to be considered a legal leather tip per IPT rule?

Thank you.
Richard

Good question.....

Deno, are you out there?

 

[Deno J. Andrews]

Good question.....

Deno, are you out there?

I would suggest not looking so deeply into the rule. The essence of the rule is this- there needs to be a leather tip on the cue...that means, a real cue tip made from leather, designed to play the game of pool in general...not a tip for one specific type of shot. That means that layered tips are in. Tips that are manufactured for the specific use of jumping balls are not going to be allowed. Basically, if you are good enough to jump a ball with a real cue, with a real tip, then more power to you Does this make sense?

Deno Andrews

 

[Ronoh]

Here's the IPT Rules: http://www.internationalpooltour.com/ipt_content/ipt_rules/default.asp

Here's the BCA Rules: http://www.bca-pool.com/play/tournaments/rules/rls_gen.shtml

Just always keep in the back of your mind that you're the fish in their pond that they created.

If you want to swim in it, you have no other option than to abide by the rules layed down in front of you. Complain and moan all you want, it won't change a thing.

Learn to adapt. You'll be better doing so.

 

[shinobi]

I would suggest not looking so deeply into the rule. The essence of the rule is this- there needs to be a leather tip on the cue...that means, a real cue tip made from leather, designed to play the game of pool in general...not a tip for one specific type of shot. That means that layered tips are in. Tips that are manufactured for the specific use of jumping balls are not going to be allowed. Basically, if you are good enough to jump a ball with a real cue, with a real tip, then more power to you Does this make sense?

Deno Andrews

This is still a highly subjective criteria for which tips will be allowed or disallowed. It's not much to go on for players or cuemakers that want to push the envelope to give themselves the best chance possible in a highly competitive field.

 

[Gerry]

That rule gives an unfair advantage to TALL players!! Of course, I'm short at 5'6".....I'm gonna go find a tall pool player and kick em in the shins!....Gerry

 

[pbat2751]

I would suggest not looking so deeply into the rule. The essence of the rule is this- there needs to be a leather tip on the cue...that means, a real cue tip made from leather, designed to play the game of pool in general...not a tip for one specific type of shot. That means that layered tips are in. Tips that are manufactured for the specific use of jumping balls are not going to be allowed. Basically, if you are good enough to jump a ball with a real cue, with a real tip, then more power to you Does this make sense?

Deno Andrews

Hmmm

maybe, but if you cored a phenolic with leather ......

http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=6994

(see Mike Webb post)

or you start doctoring leather tips to make them extremely hard.


It makes sense but its not exactly crystal clear either.


just my 2 cents

 

[2wld4u]

I understand the rule, and I for one am glad, I may be young, but Ive been around the game along time, some of the greatest players I have ever played didnt even play ball in hand, and is the reason I developed Kicking skills.. Nothing wrong with Jump shots, I always have believed you bring two cues, one to break with and your shooting cue, my pride wouldnt allow me to carry anything else.. but then again Ive proboly played alot differnt players..


2wld4u

 

[Deno J. Andrews]

This is still a highly subjective criteria for which tips will be allowed or disallowed. It's not much to go on for players or cuemakers that want to push the envelope to give themselves the best chance possible in a highly competitive field.

Like I said, if people start to try and find ways around the leather tip rule, it will change immediately. The point is that they should be jumping with their playing cue. We are opposed to using special equipment that makes jumping easy. If the rule gets abused, it would go to something along the lines of a break cue for breaking and one cue for all other shots regardless of anything.
Deno

 

[X Breaker]

Like I said, if people start to try and find ways around the leather tip rule, it will change immediately. The point is that they should be jumping with their playing cue. We are opposed to using special equipment that makes jumping easy. If the rule gets abused, it would go to something along the lines of a break cue for breaking and one cue for all other shots regardless of anything.
Deno

Dear Deno,
Thank you very much for your answer.
Warm regards,
Richard

 

[Fore Rail]

I would suggest not looking so deeply into the rule. The essence of the rule is this- there needs to be a leather tip on the cue...that means, a real cue tip made from leather, designed to play the game of pool in general...not a tip for one specific type of shot. That means that layered tips are in. Tips that are manufactured for the specific use of jumping balls are not going to be allowed. Basically, if you are good enough to jump a ball with a real cue, with a real tip, then more power to you Does this make sense?

Deno Andrews

Deno,

What about a tip like Tiger Products Jump/Break? It's layered & made from cow & pig hide. Now it's made for a specific shot type, but seems to fit the criteria for a legal tip according to IPT rules?

 

[catscradle]

Like I said, if people start to try and find ways around the leather tip rule, it will change immediately. The point is that they should be jumping with their playing cue. We are opposed to using special equipment that makes jumping easy. If the rule gets abused, it would go to something along the lines of a break cue for breaking and one cue for all other shots regardless of anything.
Deno

That solves the problem for the APA. If somebody wants to play with a 40" 10 oz cue, then they've got a break cue.

 

[onepocketchump]

Couldn't the rule be circumvented by an extraordinarily thin piece of leather over the one piece ferrule/tip.

I find it interesting that some people who have expressed views about how bad the rules against jump cues and non-leather tips were, don't seem to express that same opinion when the precious IPT is concerned. (This comment is NOT addressed at you or anybody in particular, just mentioning it here.)

I'll mention it. I think the rule is bullshit. But, it's their tour, with completely different rules, at a level far beyond anything to date. They want it modeled after golf but won't allow commonly accepted cues for specialty shots. Let's see a golf tournament played entirely with one club.

Someone will invent a jump cue that conforms to the specs set out and then they will ban that. So it comes down to what the organizers want and not what is proper for the game.

Having said that, if the choice is lucrative carreers for professional players vs. no jump cues I favor no jump cues.

John Barton -purveyor of jump cues.

 

[onepocketchump]

Like I said, if people start to try and find ways around the leather tip rule, it will change immediately. The point is that they should be jumping with their playing cue. We are opposed to using special equipment that makes jumping easy. If the rule gets abused, it would go to something along the lines of a break cue for breaking and one cue for all other shots regardless of anything.
Deno

Deno, this destroys the spirit of innovation. You know as well as anyone that a billiard player does not bring one cue to the match. Why should the pool player be required to shoot all shots with one cue? If a cue can be invented that is better suited to the shot at hand then why should the player be restricted from using it? As long as it is the player that ultimately must do the physical action there is no unfair advantage.

Why does the IPT not insist that the players play with the earliest recorded billiard instruments, maces, since the present form of the pool cue was an evolution of those? Or, why does the IPT not insist that the players all play with exactly the same model, same weight, same taper, same balance point, same tip and so on. THEN, and only then would everyone be on the same playing field.

Just say, we don't like jump cues so you can't use them. Don't invent some contrived nonsense about preserving the heritage of the game.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

I would suggest not looking so deeply into the rule. The essence of the rule is this- there needs to be a leather tip on the cue...that means, a real cue tip made from leather, designed to play the game of pool in general...not a tip for one specific type of shot. That means that layered tips are in. Tips that are manufactured for the specific use of jumping balls are not going to be allowed. Basically, if you are good enough to jump a ball with a real cue, with a real tip, then more power to you Does this make sense?

Deno Andrews

I propose a $100,000 challenge. I challenge the very best IPT player to a 100,000 jump challenge. I will provide two REAL CUES, with REAL TIPS and set up a moderately difficult jump shot. I bet that the professional player will NOT be able to jump the object ball with one cue and easily able to with the other. The tips will have no special treatment and will be brand new right out of the box, 100% leather. The cues will conform to IPT specs in every way.

Will this be a testimonial to the skill of the player or the construction of the cue?

Today's jump cues are REAL CUES, WITH REAL TIPS, the only difference to other real cues is that they are better for some shots than others, just like every other cue in the world is as well. I have personally TORTURED at least one IPT player using JUST a jump cue. I can spin the cueball, draw and follow and basically play pool with just a jump cue. So who has the skill then. I will put up $10,000 to play the IPT player for his spot and use just a jump cue to prove my point.

The whole argument that jump cues are gimmicks is a huge red herring and easily disproven. I believe the truth is that some good 'ole boys complained about the jump cues and so they were banned. The truth is that a jump shot is a skill shot NO MATTER what cue is used. A jump cue just allows those with the skill to have a wider range of shots to shoot, just as a leather tipped cue allows for a wider range of shots than does a mace.

John Barton

 

[12squared]

Deno, this destroys the spirit of innovation. You know as well as anyone that a billiard player does not bring one cue to the match. Why should the pool player be required to shoot all shots with one cue? If a cue can be invented that is better suited to the shot at hand then why should the player be restricted from using it? John

With all due respect, John. It is true that some billiard players may carry multiple cues with them to tournaments (different weights of butts/shafts for different conditions, etc.), but in all my years of competing in billiards, I have never seen a 3-cushion player change cues in the middle of a match for a specific shot. I have only seen this in trick/fancy shot exhibitions, where it's common place in both pool & billiards.

Although I agree with you on some of your points you've made, I felt I had to clarify this one. Hope you're doing well.

Dave

 

[Mungtor]

The truth is that a jump shot is a skill shot NO MATTER what cue is used.

John Barton

Great. Then people should learn to jump with a full sized cue and develop a different skill. That doesn't sound so hard. Or maybe they could learn what the rubber things on the side of the table are for and if they are especially intelligent they might figure out how those dots on the rails relate to the path of the ball.

The fact is that MOST people who go for a jump cue are hacks who have little idea of what they are doing in the first place. You're obviously an exception since you sell jump cues and have made it your crusade to provide them with some shred of legitimacy. You do well at it, but apparently a lot of people don't like them.

And didn't you once say that if you could push out against a non-called safe you would give up the jump cue? I seem to remember that one of your biggest "excuses" to go for the jump cue is when somebody locks you up through sheer luck. So, in effect, the jump cue is a bad answer to a bad rule. Fix the rule and you fix both problems.