IPT banning tip/ferrule combo?

[Michael Webb]

I would suggest not looking so deeply into the rule. The essence of the rule is this- there needs to be a leather tip on the cue...that means, a real cue tip made from leather, designed to play the game of pool in general...not a tip for one specific type of shot. That means that layered tips are in. Tips that are manufactured for the specific use of jumping balls are not going to be allowed. Basically, if you are good enough to jump a ball with a real cue, with a real tip, then more power to you Does this make sense?

Deno Andrews

Tap, Tap,.

 

[supergreenman]

So, in effect, the jump cue is a bad answer to a bad rule. Fix the rule and you fix both problems.

There's nothing wrong with the rules, and there's nothing wrong with jumping when a kick isn't available. By the way, I think most people would elect to shoot a kick if it was available rather than jump.

Just because you don't like to jump doesn't mean that it's any less legit than any other shot, calling people that jump hacks is a somewhat luddite view of things.

 

[onepocketchump]

Great. Then people should learn to jump with a full sized cue and develop a different skill. That doesn't sound so hard. Or maybe they could learn what the rubber things on the side of the table are for and if they are especially intelligent they might figure out how those dots on the rails relate to the path of the ball.

The fact is that MOST people who go for a jump cue are hacks who have little idea of what they are doing in the first place. You're obviously an exception since you sell jump cues and have made it your crusade to provide them with some shred of legitimacy. You do well at it, but apparently a lot of people don't like them.

And didn't you once say that if you could push out against a non-called safe you would give up the jump cue? I seem to remember that one of your biggest "excuses" to go for the jump cue is when somebody locks you up through sheer luck. So, in effect, the jump cue is a bad answer to a bad rule. Fix the rule and you fix both problems.

The fact is that most people who play pool are worse than hacks who have no idea what they are doing in the first place.

I just want anyone to admit that all so-called regular cue do not have the same characterisitics and that jumping with a "full" cue is partly the skill of the player and partly the composition of the cue.

I will give Earl Strickland a "normal" cue that he cannot jump a twelve inch gap with no matter how hard he tries. I will hand him another one that he will be able to jump the same gap with ease. What part of Earl's skill was involved there? Nothing. His skill was hampered by the inferior cue and enhanced by the superior one.

Why don't you make all the players play with house cues with no chalk if you want to see who has the best skill?

Yes, I agree about the rules. Just ban the jump shot. Takes care of the need to invent cues that enhance the shot. But as it is, people will always try and make things better through innovation. Isn't the IPT itself an innovation over the way things were?

I am going to go out on a limb and guess that the IPT players are not hacks, who know full well what the "bumpers" are for. Furthermore they are players who have spent a lot of time perfecting their skills using all of the legal tools available to them. Because a few people have decided that they don't like that particular piece of otherwise legal equipment they are forcing these seasoned professionals to abandon what has been commonly accepted as part of the game.

This is my problem with BS rules. If the jump shot is legal then the jump cue ought to be legal as well. That's it.

And Michael Webb - since you tapped in on Deno's answer. Why do you build cues? Are your cues better in any way than a house cue, or a $20 K-mart cue. Will the best player in the world be able to play the game at the same level using your cue as they will using a ramin-wood, screw-on tipped cue from K-Mart. What incentive is there other than prettiness, for anyone to pay your prices for a pool cue if there is no difference in performance?

Why do you have a lathe or a CNC machine. A real artist would should be able to make a cue with a pocketknife. Don't you agree?

 

[onepocketchump]

With all due respect, John. It is true that some billiard players may carry multiple cues with them to tournaments (different weights of butts/shafts for different conditions, etc.), but in all my years of competing in billiards, I have never seen a 3-cushion player change cues in the middle of a match for a specific shot. I have only seen this in trick/fancy shot exhibitions, where it's common place in both pool & billiards.

Although I agree with you on some of your points you've made, I felt I had to clarify this one. Hope you're doing well.

Dave

Point well taken, now, if a player were to approach the table with a masse' cue would he be allowed to use it or not?

John

 

[Craig Fales]

Deno, this destroys the spirit of innovation. You know as well as anyone that a billiard player does not bring one cue to the match. Why should the pool player be required to shoot all shots with one cue? If a cue can be invented that is better suited to the shot at hand then why should the player be restricted from using it? As long as it is the player that ultimately must do the physical action there is no unfair advantage.

Why does the IPT not insist that the players play with the earliest recorded billiard instruments, maces, since the present form of the pool cue was an evolution of those? Or, why does the IPT not insist that the players all play with exactly the same model, same weight, same taper, same balance point, same tip and so on. THEN, and only then would everyone be on the same playing field.

Just say, we don't like jump cues so you can't use them. Don't invent some contrived nonsense about preserving the heritage of the game.

John

Here here...the heritage of billiards is preserved in it's history....I say don't disallow the advancement of pool AND it's equipment....
________

 

[onepocketchump]

Tap, Tap,.

"Wanting my own style and my own unique hit. Thick butts, thin butts what does the customer want. Long cues, short cues. Shafts, thick and thin. Tips, ferrules and joints. It all makes a difference."

Why do you look for a different hit? Shouldn't all players be required to play with cues that are the same? Why should one player have the advantage of a finely crafted and tuned Michael Webb cue while another is hampered by the poor performance of the ramin wood flea market cues?

Shouldn't you be lobbying for a rule that states all IPT players must play with the IPT Official Cue? LEt all the manufacturers submit their cue for consideration and the one chosen will supply the only billiard instrument used by players on the IPT. No cue will be any better than any other. Every cue must be twenty ounces, with an 18 inch balance point, each one will have a brand new Le Pro tip installed at the beginning of each round of play, no player shall be allowed to use anything but the approved IPT Tip Tool in anything but the prescribed manner. If you can't adjust to the IPT Cue then you are not a player who deserves to be on the IPT and you will be weeded out accordingly.

Good luck Mike, I hope your cues are chosen because I know that your cues are very nice and I think they hit great. If not, well you can still sell them to the hacks.

John

 

[Michael Webb]

.

And Michael Webb - since you tapped in on Deno's answer. Why do you build cues? Are your cues better in any way than a house cue, or a $20 K-mart cue. Will the best player in the world be able to play the game at the same level using your cue as they will using a ramin-wood, screw-on tipped cue from K-Mart. What incentive is there other than prettiness, for anyone to pay your prices for a pool cue if there is no difference in performance?

Why do you have a lathe or a CNC machine. A real artist would should be able to make a cue with a pocketknife. Don't you agree?

Maybe I'm just trying to look at a bigger picture, Personally, I don't like jump cues, I never did. I could respond as immaturely as you did but what would that solve. Your opinion is yours and mine is mine. I'm not going to attack you for it but at least I put a real name on mine. That's the difference with some of us, WE DON'T HIDE.
And as far as cues better than a house cue or K-mart,
YOU BET YOUR BISCUITS.

 

[Snapshot9]

Thoughts ...

I have read all the posts and given a lot of thought
towards this thread, and I think that any cue considered
legal in the normal Pool world should be permitted. One
reason I am going to state is for the women players to
have the chance to balance the equation out with men.
This almost equates, to me, like saying no metal rackets
can be used in a major tennis tournament. (maybe I should
get out my ole Tad racket). Limiting to just leather tips, in
a way, takes part of the issue back to strength, which we
all know men are usually stronger than women physically, and
I think that is not fair to the women players especially.
I know from personal experience that jumping with a full cue
is a more forceful hit than with a jump cue. I do not find
that any idiot can jump well. I see a lot trying, but not many
with any expertise. Players are usually a high 4 or 5 level
before they even consider getting a jump stick, and after that
they are no more accurate with them for a long time, about
like them trying a 3 rail kick shot. I first got a jump stick because
I was losing to players about my speed, maybe a little less or more,
that had them, where I always believed in kicking before.

 

[Deno J. Andrews]

John wrote in the same post:
1. "I will provide two REAL CUES, with REAL TIPS and set up a moderately difficult jump shot. I bet that the professional player will NOT be able to jump the object ball with one cue and easily able to with the other."

and

2. "The whole argument that jump cues are gimmicks is a huge red herring and easily disproven...The truth is that a jump shot is a skill shot NO MATTER what cue is used."

I'm really confused...

Deno

 

[Deno J. Andrews]

Deno, this destroys the spirit of innovation. You know as well as anyone that a billiard player does not bring one cue to the match. Why should the pool player be required to shoot all shots with one cue? If a cue can be invented that is better suited to the shot at hand then why should the player be restricted from using it? As long as it is the player that ultimately must do the physical action there is no unfair advantage.

Why does the IPT not insist that the players play with the earliest recorded billiard instruments, maces, since the present form of the pool cue was an evolution of those? Or, why does the IPT not insist that the players all play with exactly the same model, same weight, same taper, same balance point, same tip and so on. THEN, and only then would everyone be on the same playing field.

Just say, we don't like jump cues so you can't use them. Don't invent some contrived nonsense about preserving the heritage of the game.

John

John,

I understand where you are coming from...I just can't really reply. The IPT doesn't have to justify every rule. The type of game we are trying to portray is from the golden era of the game...when players could jump balls with their playing cues. In golf, you are correct that many different clubs are used...at the same time, there are technologies and clubs that are completely outlawed in golf and every club in a bag must meet very strict PGA criteria. Basically, the IPT doesn't want players to use gimmick cues to make jump shots much like the PGA doesn't want gimmick clubs. It doesn't kill innovation; there are plenty of other tours and tournaments that allow such cues.

Deno

 

[Deno J. Andrews]

If it meets the length and weight limits...which any cue specifically designed to make masses easier would probably not be within limits.

Deno

 

[macguy]

If it meets the length and weight limits...which any cue specifically designed to make masses easier would probably not be within limits.

Deno

It is the old saying about the golden rule, the one with the gold makes the rule. You can impose any rule you want and even change them midstream if you'll like as long as there is no favoritism or anything that could be considered discrimination

 

[Bamacues]

When did jump shots come to the game? Did the old masters use a jump shot in their games? Seriously...I can't remember seeing those guys (Mosconi, Wimpy, Ciscero. etc) jump balls. I grew up as a snooker player and never learned a jump shot (it is a foul in snooker), but I can kick balls fairly well. I can jump balls with a jump cue fairly easily, but I don't use them. I don't remember the money 8/9 ball players from my era (60s) using a jump shot, they all kicked like mules.....

 

[macguy]

When did jump shots come to the game? Did the old masters use a jump shot in their games? Seriously...I can't remember seeing those guys (Mosconi, Wimpy, Ciscero. etc) jump balls. I grew up as a snooker player and never learned a jump shot (it is a foul in snooker), but I can kick balls fairly well. I can jump balls with a jump cue fairly easily, but I don't use them. I don't remember the money 8/9 ball players from my era (60s) using a jump shot, they all kicked like mules.....

In those days everybody played pushout. When one foul came in players gave up ball in hand all the time even the champs till they developed the kicking skills. There was little need to kick before that.

 

[onepocketchump]

Maybe I'm just trying to look at a bigger picture, Personally, I don't like jump cues, I never did. I could respond as immaturely as you did but what would that solve. Your opinion is yours and mine is mine. I'm not going to attack you for it but at least I put a real name on mine. That's the difference with some of us, WE DON'T HIDE.
And as far as cues better than a house cue or K-mart,
YOU BET YOUR BISCUITS.

So am I Mike. That's what you don't seem to get. In fact, you did respond immaturely. Instead of debating the points I brought up your only repsonse is to tell me you don't like jump cues (apparent from your tapping Deno's post) and telling me that your cues are better than K-Mart cues, which is obvious and completely ignores the points.

So, once again, I ask you if you think all players should be required to play with exactly the same equipment?

John

 

[onepocketchump]

John,

I understand where you are coming from...I just can't really reply. The IPT doesn't have to justify every rule. The type of game we are trying to portray is from the golden era of the game...when players could jump balls with their playing cues. In golf, you are correct that many different clubs are used...at the same time, there are technologies and clubs that are completely outlawed in golf and every club in a bag must meet very strict PGA criteria. Basically, the IPT doesn't want players to use gimmick cues to make jump shots much like the PGA doesn't want gimmick clubs. It doesn't kill innovation; there are plenty of other tours and tournaments that allow such cues.

Deno

No, they don't have to justify every rule. I have said often that any organization is free to make any rule they want to, whether that rule is just or right or conventional or not. I take exception to the characterization and subsequent justification for the exclusion of jump cues being that they are not "real" cues and do not have "real" tips. They certianly are real cues in every sense of the word and also have real tips in every sense of the concept. The reason to have a tip on a cue is to have something to hold chalk which makes it easier to apply spin. Every phenolic tipped cue can hold chalk and be used to apply as much or more spin to the cueball as any leather tip.

I object to the characterization of any rule, or equipment use as not being representative of "REAL" pool. I understand that Kevin must create a market for his product. Since the existing pool world is so far off the public's radar there is no need to alienate those of us who are in that world by disparaging us constantly with the knocks.

That's it. I don't care about not allowing jump cues, why don't you disallow the jump shot while you are at it? If you really wanted to portray the golden era of pool then you would be promoting straight pool. Eight ball has never been considered the professional's game. We all know that. Be that as it may, I am happy to see what you are doing. I just hope that doing so doesn't lead to an era of knocking those that aren't in the fold and bullying because you can.

John

 

[onepocketchump]

John wrote in the same post:
1. "I will provide two REAL CUES, with REAL TIPS and set up a moderately difficult jump shot. I bet that the professional player will NOT be able to jump the object ball with one cue and easily able to with the other."

and

2. "The whole argument that jump cues are gimmicks is a huge red herring and easily disproven...The truth is that a jump shot is a skill shot NO MATTER what cue is used."

I'm really confused...

Deno

I will clear it up for you. Being able to jump a ball is an aquired skill. Some cues enhance that skill but the shot itself is made because the player applied the correct amount of speed and spin.

In the case above, the player would be hampered in his efforts to jump because cue A would simply have poor characteristics for jumping and cue B would have excellent characteristics for jumping and neither cue would have been built with any thought given to how good or not they are for jumping balls.

I am sure that you can follow this example, hand Semih Sayginer a billiard cue and he will make some mind blowing shots. Hand the same person a pool cue and his repetoire of shots will decrease simpy because the cue will not react the same. He will still be able to do amazing things with the pool cue, just not as many. How fair would it be to tell Semih that from now on, your performance will be limited to what you can do with a pool cue?

John

 

[Mungtor]

I am sure that you can follow this example, hand Semih Sayginer a billiard cue and he will make some mind blowing shots. Hand the same person a pool cue and his repetoire of shots will decrease simpy because the cue will not react the same. He will still be able to do amazing things with the pool cue, just not as many. How fair would it be to tell Semih that from now on, your performance will be limited to what you can do with a pool cue?

John

Stupendeously fair if he is playing pool. Everything is about playing on a "level" field, within the limitations of personal preference. Tennis players don't have to use the same string tension or grip size, but there are still limits to the length and surface area of the racket. It should be the same with pool.

 

[Mungtor]

I will give Earl Strickland a "normal" cue that he cannot jump a twelve inch gap with no matter how hard he tries. I will hand him another one that he will be able to jump the same gap with ease. What part of Earl's skill was involved there? Nothing. His skill was hampered by the inferior cue and enhanced by the superior one.

OK, this goes against most of your arguements that a jump shot takes some degree of skill. You're saying the no matter how good you are, equipment can make you "better". While that may be your belief, I have to believe that you are dead wrong. The better player is always the better player given comparable equipment.

Ban jump cues and nothing will change for the vast majority of players. Only the ones who have decided to invest effort in learning to jump as their only option will be at a disadvantage, and frankly they probably would have been anyway. Every week I watch a guy in my local league spend 15 minutes practicing jump shots when the primary reason he needs them is because his position play sucks ass. Obviously there are exceptions, but since we are talking about pool in general I feel that I can generalize about the players too.

This is my problem with BS rules. If the jump shot is legal then the jump cue ought to be legal as well. That's it.

And that's a strange analogy at best, and a completely defective one IMHO. It's like baseball..... If I'm supposed to hit a ball with a bat, shouldn't I be allowed to use any bat I want? Umm.... no. Not even remotely. There have to be limits on what is legal and what isn't regardless of what the ultimate goal is. Otherwise it simply becomes a contest of equipment rather than a contest of skill. For an excellent example of that, check out SCCA racing. It's the people with ludicrous money that win because they have equipment good enough to cover their deficiencies. Michael Schumacher in a Ford Tempo still loses to your average douchebag in a Camaro.

Pool should be a contest of skill and strategy, not equipment. Choose 1 cue and use it, and that's your strategy. If you feel you can win with a jump cue as your primary shooting cue, that should be OK too, but realize the tradeoffs you are making. A small minority of people can make it work, but generally it isn't worth it.

 

[onepocketchump]

Stupendeously fair if he is playing pool. Everything is about playing on a "level" field, within the limitations of personal preference. Tennis players don't have to use the same string tension or grip size, but there are still limits to the length and surface area of the racket. It should be the same with pool.

I absolutely agree. Which is why the use of jump cues is more fair than the concept of one cue for all shots. Today's jump cues are all within very close performance parameters. This means that everyone steps to the table with the same equipment and the resulting shot is solely the result of the skill of the operator. As it stands now, a player who tries to jump a shot using a Predator shaft is at a large disadvantage against one who uses a Tim Scruggs cue.

The problem with comparing pool to other sports is the penalties involved and the actual play. Pool is the only game where the person at the table must make a shot that the next player must deal with. Every player should have the maximum legal opportunity to avoid giving up ball in hand. A jump cue does that. In the so-called golden era of pool, the rules were such that jump cues were not needed at all and so they were not developed. In that time, the predominate professional pocket billiard games were straight pool and nine ball.

In straight pool a player may contact any ball on the table at any time. No need to ever jump a ball unless you just want to. Practically however, the jump shot was not needed ever.

In nine-ball, the rule was that the player at the table could push out at any time and the incoming player could accept the shot or give it back. Once again, no real "need" for a jump cue. Although a jump cue would have still been useful in two-foul nine ball it was not a requirement due to the rules.

In today's game of one-foul ball in hand it is imperative to avoid giving up ball-in-hand. So jump cues are practical for these rules.

That's the only point. It's just another example of how fractured pool is. Imagine anyone trying to start an alternative tennis tour with all their own rules. It wouldn't fly because the WTA has an iron grip on their sport. As it is now, pool players from amateurs to professionals will continue to face different rules at every venue. Perhaps this makes better players in the end. We are more adaptable.

John