I had a big problem in Vegas just now and if you'd like to know what actually occured, go to my website www.GradyMathews.com and you can read all about it, if you're interested.
IPT refs and what happened to me!!!!
- Thread starter Grady
- Start date
If what you diagrammed is correct, then you most definitely made a good hit and the fact that the referees couldn't see that kind of makes me wonder who is doing the refereeing? I mean, I would referee a match on the IPT free of charge and I'm pretty sure I am aware of most of the rules.
Very Close Call or a Really Bad Beat...
Sounds like a bad beat to me. I've played against B-players that didn't realize that you could spin a ball in like that and have called a foul....but the ref's should definitely realize it...
From the picture you have on your website...it looks like there was plenty of room to pull it off...
How close was the shot in your opinion? Was the CB extremely close to hitting both balls at the same time...or was it very clear that the CB hit the 8 first?
EDIT: I guess by where the 14 ball ended-up....you had to hit the 8 first...
Grady said:
Sounds like a bad beat to me. I've played against B-players that didn't realize that you could spin a ball in like that and have called a foul....but the ref's should definitely realize it...
From the picture you have on your website...it looks like there was plenty of room to pull it off...
How close was the shot in your opinion? Was the CB extremely close to hitting both balls at the same time...or was it very clear that the CB hit the 8 first?
EDIT: I guess by where the 14 ball ended-up....you had to hit the 8 first...
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Sure there have been many questionable calls, And I doubt it will be the last, the main thing I get from your explanation is the ref was not in the correct position to even make the call.
He made the call and thats the breaks, but I too would be very very very frustrated that he did not plant himself right over the hit. I know if it was me I would want the refs head right next to the shot in question, if he became difficult I would have not made the shot until I had another referee witness the shot and not him.
The IPT should have an extra ref roaming for such cases a player feels the current ref is being difficult.
He made the call and thats the breaks, but I too would be very very very frustrated that he did not plant himself right over the hit. I know if it was me I would want the refs head right next to the shot in question, if he became difficult I would have not made the shot until I had another referee witness the shot and not him.
The IPT should have an extra ref roaming for such cases a player feels the current ref is being difficult.
What Ref...?????
Grady.....Welcome to the world of Pool ...????? Tough Call but that's the way it goes..... I have played Three sports at the "Major League" level.....and you know what....---t happens..!!!! Gotta go now but I will come back and give you a true story that happened to me ......You won't believe this one ....Later......a good old friend, Grady....Talk to you later......
Grady.....Welcome to the world of Pool ...????? Tough Call but that's the way it goes..... I have played Three sports at the "Major League" level.....and you know what....---t happens..!!!! Gotta go now but I will come back and give you a true story that happened to me ......You won't believe this one ....Later......a good old friend, Grady....Talk to you later......
Grady....watch a baseball or football game sometime & see what questionable calls you see. And these guys are professionals.
So how did you do in your matches?
With this bad call, does this mean you won't be going to the next event?
Did you sign up with Mark Trainer as your agent?
So how did you do in your matches?
With this bad call, does this mean you won't be going to the next event?
Did you sign up with Mark Trainer as your agent?
Grady said:
Grady, it looks as though you are right that it would be a legal hit. But I wasn't there so I can't make an opinion, but your a classy guy so I believe you.
This is why I think instant replay should be available to referee's in sports. It's about the players playing the game, NOT the referee's calling the game. Every effort should be made to ensure that calls are fair and accurate.
Grady - I feel for you, as I have been victim of some miscalled fouls in my league play. Of course, this doesn't compare to the prestige and prizes of the IPT... Anyhow, it is my opinion that you *owe* it to yourself to find a way out of the "lows" you describe on your website. After all, you are one of the most skilled, most eloquent, and most intelligent players ever to have held a cue. It would be a great loss to everyone in the pool world if the Professor hung up the gloves, even for a short time. Heck, there's an even bigger IPT event just around the corner! I truly hope to see you in the finals in september!
I just hope you realize that you DID win that match; it was merely the referee that fouled on the eight.
I just hope you realize that you DID win that match; it was merely the referee that fouled on the eight.
Man it always annoys the hell out of me when the person watching the hit has no clue. It's not even the bad call that bothers me as much as the cluelessness of the person, followed by the deer-in-headlights look after the shoot, then quickly covered up by an assertive and confident call as if the guy "clearly" saw something physically impossible happen. And imagine having that happen at the IPT....
Also, at risk of sounding contrarian, it seems to me that there might be one possible way to make a bad hit and still get that 14 ball to the X, and that would be to slightly graze the 14, then hit the 8, then go back into the 14 and bump it over to the X. This would be a fairly unlikely occurrence, but I think it's physically possible. You could probably also go 14-8-rail-14 and get the 14 to the X, but would be pretty obvious.
Not saying it actually happened either of those ways, I wasn't there, and from what you describe it definitely sounds like you got a bad call from a clueless (and lazy) ref.
Also, at risk of sounding contrarian, it seems to me that there might be one possible way to make a bad hit and still get that 14 ball to the X, and that would be to slightly graze the 14, then hit the 8, then go back into the 14 and bump it over to the X. This would be a fairly unlikely occurrence, but I think it's physically possible. You could probably also go 14-8-rail-14 and get the 14 to the X, but would be pretty obvious.
Not saying it actually happened either of those ways, I wasn't there, and from what you describe it definitely sounds like you got a bad call from a clueless (and lazy) ref.
Grady for what it's worth it wasn't your fault and there is nothing you could really have done about it. so there's not much to regret. I'm sure you know this but it will only have negative effects on you if you dwell on it.
personally i would have kicked up a fuss on this one, for the main reason that you told the ref beforehand to watch the shot carefully from the best angle! in my book, the second he disregarded and ignored this advice was the second he lost his right to call a foul on you.
anyway, can somebody please explain to me how exactly a ball is 'spun' in? i think this is the age old issue about the cue ball imparting spin on the object ball...
i just cant comprehend how this is possible...
personally i would have kicked up a fuss on this one, for the main reason that you told the ref beforehand to watch the shot carefully from the best angle! in my book, the second he disregarded and ignored this advice was the second he lost his right to call a foul on you.
anyway, can somebody please explain to me how exactly a ball is 'spun' in? i think this is the age old issue about the cue ball imparting spin on the object ball...
i just cant comprehend how this is possible...
Grady: IMHO I agree with much said by SlimShafty in his post - was it possible to call in another ref prior to shooting and explain how you're going to play the shot? - hopefully one of them would realize they need to be planted over the balls to see which ball moved first. At the same time, from your diagram I also agree with you that where the 14 ended up it had to of been a good hit. But I have to disagree with you calling your opponent a "jerk" for accepting such a bad call. If he wasn't "planted over the 8 and 14" and was sitting at a distance in his chair he may well have thought it was a bad hit also - but, another thought - if you immediately "stopped just short of being permanently barred from the IPT with how I (you) reacted" then I'm not too sure any opponent would have been jumping in the middle. Do you attribute this unfortunate situation to giving up on yourself in the next 3 matches? If you could have regrouped and won 2 of those 3 matches you would of had a good possibilty of moving on to round - I understand easier said then done. Wishing you the resiliency in putting this behind you and kicking a$$ at the next tournie. Respectfully submitted.
No recourse
When I said that there was no recourse, that's exactly what I meant. I went to the "head referee" and Charlie Ursetti and I'm not gona put down what they told me. Suffice it to say that all they were interested in was shutting me up.
I've been teaching the shot I had for 40 years. Don't you think I know whether or not it was a good hit? I could explain in more technical detail but what's the use. I'm the only tournament director/referee that I ever saw reverse himself and even get on the mike and apologize. I got screwed and that's the end of it. But, like I told them, I sure don't have to like it.
If you have to know, I only saw two, count-em, two qualified refs.
When I said that there was no recourse, that's exactly what I meant. I went to the "head referee" and Charlie Ursetti and I'm not gona put down what they told me. Suffice it to say that all they were interested in was shutting me up.
I've been teaching the shot I had for 40 years. Don't you think I know whether or not it was a good hit? I could explain in more technical detail but what's the use. I'm the only tournament director/referee that I ever saw reverse himself and even get on the mike and apologize. I got screwed and that's the end of it. But, like I told them, I sure don't have to like it.
If you have to know, I only saw two, count-em, two qualified refs.
emptypockets said:
The refs don't need to be planted over the balls. All you have to do is look at where the 14 ball ended up. If Grady hit the 14 first, how in the hell is he gonna cut it that thin with enough speed to make it stop there? What a horrible call that ref made. All he had to do was look at where the 14 stopped to determine the shot. I hope the ref gets fired.
Bad Call
Grady ...hello....I'm back to share something with you.....We have played together more than once...... this actually happened to me in a pro event...My opponent is shooting....the object ball is approx. 1/2 " from the rail....the cue ball is approx 1/2" directly behind it. He is going to try to hit the cue ball into the rail, without double hitting the cue ball.....you know the shot..... I call over the ref....Yes I, call over the ref....and ask him to watch the shot.....The ref gets right over the ball on the rail and watches the shot..... My opponent strikes the cue ball.....Looks up to me......Then one of the best I have ever seen in my 36 year carreer happens.....THE REF....looks at me and says...." Did that hit the Rail"....HE ASKS ME...???? HELLO............all everyone did was to laugh at the ref..... I was laughing like I thought I p--- my pants....Fortunately for me....my opponent knew he screwed up and gave me ball in hand... Bad Call????? how about NO CALL..... I have one better than that and it happened on the IPT, in Southern California....after putting up $ 2,000....thats right TWO LARGE....which you did not do..... Go to my linkwww.leatherpocket.com...Click on the photo....Grady, do you remember me now..???? click on The Controversial Corner ....2006 edition....and read the article "The Making of a Champion".....That is worse than getting a bad call.....Like I said before Grady............You, NOT the ref....are a professional....The difference between a Pro & a Champion.....Simple...."A Pro wins most of the time, especially when he is on"....."A Champion wins ALL the time EVEN when he is OFF"....Good Luck Grady....Suck it up....and Kick Ass in the next one.....Don't spend too much time on the "pity pot"....Remember....You were GIVEN a card......Sigel himself said...If he had to qualify....he would probably still be looking at the qualifier schedules...... Most of the American players would not have made it through thru the qualifying part of all this .....How do I know .....cause I played in the "Toughest one of them ALL" The Boston one ...where many people said ..."That was the toughest field they had ever seen in this sport"......and I agree..... Really Professional Pool is no different than any other sport......Sometimes you get the calls and sometimes you don't...........The Champion.....does not lose it when he does'nt get the call...........Go Get Em..G
Grady ...hello....I'm back to share something with you.....We have played together more than once...... this actually happened to me in a pro event...My opponent is shooting....the object ball is approx. 1/2 " from the rail....the cue ball is approx 1/2" directly behind it. He is going to try to hit the cue ball into the rail, without double hitting the cue ball.....you know the shot..... I call over the ref....Yes I, call over the ref....and ask him to watch the shot.....The ref gets right over the ball on the rail and watches the shot..... My opponent strikes the cue ball.....Looks up to me......Then one of the best I have ever seen in my 36 year carreer happens.....THE REF....looks at me and says...." Did that hit the Rail"....HE ASKS ME...???? HELLO............all everyone did was to laugh at the ref..... I was laughing like I thought I p--- my pants....Fortunately for me....my opponent knew he screwed up and gave me ball in hand... Bad Call????? how about NO CALL..... I have one better than that and it happened on the IPT, in Southern California....after putting up $ 2,000....thats right TWO LARGE....which you did not do..... Go to my linkwww.leatherpocket.com...Click on the photo....Grady, do you remember me now..???? click on The Controversial Corner ....2006 edition....and read the article "The Making of a Champion".....That is worse than getting a bad call.....Like I said before Grady............You, NOT the ref....are a professional....The difference between a Pro & a Champion.....Simple...."A Pro wins most of the time, especially when he is on"....."A Champion wins ALL the time EVEN when he is OFF"....Good Luck Grady....Suck it up....and Kick Ass in the next one.....Don't spend too much time on the "pity pot"....Remember....You were GIVEN a card......Sigel himself said...If he had to qualify....he would probably still be looking at the qualifier schedules...... Most of the American players would not have made it through thru the qualifying part of all this .....How do I know .....cause I played in the "Toughest one of them ALL" The Boston one ...where many people said ..."That was the toughest field they had ever seen in this sport"......and I agree..... Really Professional Pool is no different than any other sport......Sometimes you get the calls and sometimes you don't...........The Champion.....does not lose it when he does'nt get the call...........Go Get Em..G
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bizboy313 said:
The referees at the tournament have five to ten or more years of experience refereeing major tournaments. They attended a referee-training program when they became a referee and receive additional training each year.
Refereeing an IPT tournament is a very rewarding experience, but it is not fun. It is a job with significant responsibilities to the players and the IPT.
For this event, the referees worked seven twelve-hour days with only a few minutes for breaks between rounds to rest and to eat. The entire time, they are on their feet attending to multiple tables. During day three, the staff of ten referees covered sixty tables. The arrangement of the tables did not make that an easy task.
The referees must be alert the entire time and are expected to catch all fouls on the tables they are assigned to. Imagine doing nothing by watching for fouls for twelve hours a day. Looking at little other than the table. Then imagine doing it after the fifth twelve-hour day.
Many players appreciated the referee staff, but there are some who were unhappy with a call the referee made against them. They blame the referee for loosing the match. Somehow they forget that they lost seven other games. It can be an unpleasant experience dealing with a angry and disrespectful player. A referee has to have the temperament to handle an angry player that is in their face.
By the way, my feet are still sore.
Blue_chalk
Registered
Grady said:
Grady, you may be right but you may be wrong. I was not there and do not know the exact circumstances. However, I have to say that I find your public bashing quite inappropriate and unprofessional.
Any other professional sport if you publicly chastise the refs or league...you get fined. I can understand your frustration but this is just not right.
To Blue Chalk
Really, unlike other sports and their well behaved athletes, you think I behaved inappropiately? I guess it would have been all right if I did a Spreewell and choked the ref or broke water coolers or sucker punched a 75 year old Yankee player or spit on a ref?
Look, like I told them, I have to accept getting screwed but I sure as hell don't have to like it.
Really, unlike other sports and their well behaved athletes, you think I behaved inappropiately? I guess it would have been all right if I did a Spreewell and choked the ref or broke water coolers or sucker punched a 75 year old Yankee player or spit on a ref?
Look, like I told them, I have to accept getting screwed but I sure as hell don't have to like it.
Blue_chalk
Registered
Grady said:
All I am saying is that one call (even if it WAS bad) does not nullify a 30.43% win percentage over a tournament.
Spreewell got suspended for I think 30 games. If you bump an umpire, you get minimum of 5 games. And yes, if any NBA player, coach, or owner talks negatively about a ref they get fined. Much more than you will ever make on the IPT. That is not a shot, just the nature that the NBA hands out very high fines.
I don't know what your public bashing will solve. I for one, think the BCA refs are in need of improvement. They have been the same for the past 10 years that I have seen them in action. I would say 7 out of 10 times they are standing on the wrong side of the table to watch a hit. I experienced one that was more interested in drinking then doing his job in Vegas last year. I guess the alcohol was being used to soothe his sore feet. When it came time for him to call a foul in my match, he yelled out foul on the opposing player. It was a perfectly good hit so I even asked how it was a foul. The ref said that the 7 ball didn't even move. I said, he is stripes (as he was told before the shot) and then got a deer in a headlight stare from him. After that, I agreed with my opponent to call our own fouls. I'll give you a free tip on how to deal with a BCA referee, something I learned last May. You have to 'shark' the referee. If you are going to make a shot & know it is going to be a good hit...simply say to the ref, "I don't know why you were called & sorry to waste your time. This is obviously going to be a good hit". I bet you never get called for a foul. Works everytime.
I don't know what your public bashing will solve. I for one, think the BCA refs are in need of improvement. They have been the same for the past 10 years that I have seen them in action. I would say 7 out of 10 times they are standing on the wrong side of the table to watch a hit. I experienced one that was more interested in drinking then doing his job in Vegas last year. I guess the alcohol was being used to soothe his sore feet. When it came time for him to call a foul in my match, he yelled out foul on the opposing player. It was a perfectly good hit so I even asked how it was a foul. The ref said that the 7 ball didn't even move. I said, he is stripes (as he was told before the shot) and then got a deer in a headlight stare from him. After that, I agreed with my opponent to call our own fouls. I'll give you a free tip on how to deal with a BCA referee, something I learned last May. You have to 'shark' the referee. If you are going to make a shot & know it is going to be a good hit...simply say to the ref, "I don't know why you were called & sorry to waste your time. This is obviously going to be a good hit". I bet you never get called for a foul. Works everytime.
Grady said:
Sometimes our brains can fool us. I was playing baseball once, was on third base- A flyball was hit to right, i saw the fielder catch it, i tagged up and ran home. I was 100% no doubt sure that i had tagged well after the catch. I would have bet a million bucks to a dollar on it. They appealed-the ref called me out.
I went nuts but the first and only two teammates i talked to about it, both said i left early. I cant imagine they would be both be wrong so in conclusion, I have to think if you want to see something bad enough your brain/eyes can play tricks on you. To this day i still find it hard to accept though.